Was King David Saved While He Committed His Sins of Adultery and Murder?

RDKirk said:

You seem to be saying that believers wander in and out of salvation on a minute-by-minute basis.

Or at least between repentances. What happens if a tower falls on you immediately after you've sinned? What happens with the sins you don't even realize you've committed and don't realize you have to repent for?

There there another thread where the question is asked whether a person can go five seconds without sin. What was your original response to that question?

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Nothing in life happens by accident. Death does not happen by accident. God is the giver and taker of life. God knows the number of a person's days. So if a tower falls on a person during the state that a person did not repent, that means God knows their heart and future free will choices would not be good.

The Parable of the Prodigal Son in Luke 15 is an example of a believer going from a saved state, and then to a lost state, and back again. For when the son comes home to the father from living a prodigal life in sin, and he repents to the father, his father said that his son was "dead" and is "alive again." He also said his son was "lost" and is "found." These are common terms used through out the Bible to signify spiritual death and spiritual life. In fact, this parable is one parable in a series of three parables and they are all centered on the theme of repentance (i.e. seeking forgiveness with GOD - whereby their is rejoicing over one's salvation). David said, return to me, the joy of my salvation. Salvation brings joy. David did not have it when he committed his sins of adultery and murder. He wanted it back. Forgiveness. Salvation.

Then there is James 5:19-20. This says that if any brethren errs from the truth and one converts him back again, they should know that they have helped to save a soul from death and cover a multitude of their sins. In other words, if a believer backslides into a life of sin (and they do not deny Jesus as their Savior), their soul abided in death during the time they erred from the truth by their sin. When another faithful brother or sister brings them back by getting them to repent of their sins to the Lord Jesus Christ, the faithful believer who helped them to repent should know they helped to save this backslidden believer's soul from spiritual death and they should know that they helped to cover their sins by pointing them back to the right path of Jesus.

ClementofA said:

Why do you say that?

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Matt Slick said, I quote:


Source:
Evangelical Outreach and eternal security | CARM.org

You can Google what Dan Corner says about Matt Slick and Carm. Dan Corner has two articles on him. I am telling you to Google it because it may be considered as hate speech by the particular words Dan Corner uses. If I was Dan, I would be a little more loving or careful with my words. For a person can repent five seconds after he condemns them. I strive to condemn the false belief and strive not to throw any hateful names around.

RDKirk said:

You've have only confirmed your agreement with what I said before:

Yet, God knows our end, and regardless how twisty the road to that end, God always knew it all along, before creation.

So those that to our temporal viewpoint will be saved are saved from God's extemporal viewpoint

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But that does not change how we are to teach the truth in how we are to live here in real time and how we are told in the Bible to....

Continue in Christ's word (John 8:31-32).
Continue in the grace of God (Acts of the Apostles 13:43).
Continue in the faith (Acts of the Apostles 14:22).
Continue in Christ's love (John 15:9) (Also see John 15:10 that says: “If ye love me, keep my commandments” - John 14:15).

All these exhortations would be meaningless rubbish if our salvation was secured and or our free will was changed to a point whereby we will do good to that perfect right level God desires for Him to be pleased with us.

Also, to essentially say, "Don't worry. God has it figured out in the end." This is to teach a lack of concern over warning others about how sin can destroy our souls. Jesus taught that sin can destroy our souls (See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46). But your sort of like, "Nah, don't worry about that." Sorry, I am sticking with Jesus and what He says.

MDC said:

Lol future sin! Just say flat out Jason one must work for his salvation. Your message nullifies everything Christ did to save His people from their sin. Only the self righteous boast in this faithless message

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And I can just as easily say that your belief is promoting the idea that a Christian can sin as a part of their salvation instead of doing good works. In other words, there are only two options set before you. You are going to do works regardless in this life. They are going to be either evil works or good works.

The choice is yours.

So your options are that you are saved by:


You better make sure you choose wisely.

For God will render to every man according to his deeds (Romans 2:5-6).
John 5:29 says, "And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation."

Okay. Stop a second. I want you to go back and slowly read John 5:29. What does it say? Does it sound like it support a belief alone type faith (while one is in sin) or does it sound like it is in support of doing good works?

Dorothy Mae said:

There are sins I will not do or I lose his fellowship. This is how I see it.

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Believers cannot be out of fellowship with the Lord and be saved.

#1. 1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

#2. John 17:3 says eternal life is in knowing the one true God, Jesus Christ. Knowing implies a fellowship. So if you don't know Jesus, then you don't have life (Salvation).

#3. Romans 8:9 says if he a man does not have the Spirit of Christ, he does not belong to him.

#4. Psalms 73:27 says God will destroy all those who abandon Him (or go a whoring from Him).

#5. John 15:6 says if a man does not abide in Him, he is cast forth and burned.

#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Being cleansed of sin is salvation; If you were to contrast this with 1 John 2:4, it says that person who says they know the Lord and does keep His commandments is a liar and the truth is not in them. Revelation 21:8 says all liars will have their part in the Lake of Fire.

#7. Romans 11:21-22 says if you do not continue in his goodness you will be cut off. For if God spared not the natural branches (i.e. the Jews), take heed that he can do the same to you (i.e. Gentile believers). The analogy here is that you are branch and Christ is the tree. We need to continue in Christ's righteousness or goodness, not our own righteousness or goodness, or we will be cut off because of unbelief.

#8. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates? (2 Corinthians 13:5).

You said:

He does not immediately condemn me or anyone else to hell crossing out the name as though he has no patience whatsoever.

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Again this is simply not true. I am not saying God is not patient with us. I have already told you that GOD will seek to convict a person to repent of their sins before any final judgments are made (with them dying). God is long suffering towards us and He is not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

You said:

Your view of Him is too narrow. He is bigger than that.

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Noah and only his family were the only ones righteous on the Earth at one time. Jesus says when he returns, will he find faith on the Earth? Jesus says narrow is the way that leads unto life, and few be there that finds it. Few. Narrow is the way. I imagine the way is more narrow than most think. Jesus loves us, but He will not condone our thinking that we can sin and still be saved (not even a little).

Llewelyn Stevenson said:

I see the facts of the Bible, and I know them well,

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I am not doubting that you think you know the facts of the Bible.
But many people can claim this kind of thing. That does not mean they are correct. The truth of God's Word will back them up in what they say.

You said:

but it is good to learn the intent of Scripture and not live by the letter as you are suggesting 2 Corinthians 3:6.

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You are ripping that verse out of it's context to prove an unbiblical line of thinking.
Paul is contrasting between the Old Law (the written Torah) with the New Covenant teachings that were by the Spirit.

"Who also hath made us able ministers of the new testament; not of the letter, but of the spirit: for the letter killeth, but the spirit giveth life." (2 Corinthians 3:6).

The letter is in reference of the Old Law in how it could kill you because there death penalties attached for breaking certain laws within the Law of Moses. He made us ministers, not of the letter (i.e. the Torah, Old Covenant, Old Contract), but he made us ministers of the New Testament. So this verse is not suggesting what you are suggesting.

We can see the contrast is between the Old and the New.

#1. Not with ink (the Torah, OT), vs.
but with the Spirit of the living God (New Covenant) (verse 3).

#2. Not in tables of stone (the Torah, OT), vs.
but in fleshy tables of the heart (New Covenant) (verse 4).

#3. Not of the letter (the Torah, OT), vs.
but of the spirit (New Covenant) (verse 6).

#4. The ministration of death, written and engraven in stones... the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses (the Torah, OT), vs.
the ministration of the spirit (New Covenant) verse 8).

#5. The ministration of condemnation (the Torah, OT), vs.
the ministration of righteousness (New Covenant) (verse 9).

You said:

The Question "if" makes the suggestion hypothetical but not untrue. It becomes hypothesis because it never happened.

David was on a downward path and God went to extra lengths to stop this [finally sending his prophet] and he [God] was victorious, showing that it was God's intent to save David. Since God was so intent on saving David it is hard for me to believe that he wasn't already saved but he needed David to do his part for Ezekiel 18 makes it clear that there is no escape without repentance under God's law.

So while the letter says he is not saved the Spirit says he is saved because I have no intention of losing him.

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King David was not saved in his sins of adultery and murder. To say so otherwise is to teach a license for immorality because one is basically saying a person can be like a King David and still be saved (Thereby teaching others that they can sin and still be saved).

#1. Numbers 35:16-18 says it only takes on act of murder to be a murderer; And Leviticus 20:10 says it only takes on act of adultery to be an adulterer.

#2. Jesus Himself regarded just looking at woman once as an act of adultery (Matthew 5:28).

#3. John says, "No murderer has eternal life abiding in them." (1 John 3:15).

#4. Proverbs 6:32 says "Whosoever commits adultery with a woman lacks understanding: he that does it destroys his own soul."

#5. Jesus Himself says that just looking at a woman in lust (Which is adultery) is potential for a person to be cast bodily in hell fire (See Matthew 5:28-30).

#6. David needed to confess of his sin in order to be forgiven (See Psalms 51).

#7. 1 John 1:9 says if we confess our sins he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

#8. Revelation 21:8 says, "But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." Murderers and whoremongers will be cast into the lake of fire. All liars will be cast into the lake of fire. ALL liars, and not just some. NO murderer has eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

As for Ezekiel 18:

Ezekiel 18:24 says,
"But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked mandoeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die."

Some have suggested that this is talking exclusively of the physical punishment of the Law like capital punishment. But that is not really the case here unless one thinks God is going to send all of Israel to face capital punishment.

For Ezekiel 18:31-32 says,
31 "Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel?
32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!"

You said:

As it is written, "Whom The Lord loves he rebukes and chastens." See Hebrews 12:6.

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Imagine if you will there is a master who has a dog. One day the dog poops on the carpet and so the master lightly smacks the animal and yells at the little guy. The goal is to get the animal to stop pooping hot piles of steamy brownie goodness on his white carpet. The master chastens his dog to correct the animal. To reform the animal. To get the animal to stop pooping. But imagine another master who owns a dog. Except this master owns a dog who has an uncontrollable pooping problem. The master knows the dog has a pooping problem whereby the poor little furry guy cannot help but to release brown tootsie rolls all over his lovely bright carpets. This master yells at the dog and smacks him for pooping on the carpet knowing full well the animal cannot stop pooping.

The second master is kind of like what you believe because you no doubt take the Belief Alone false interpretations on Romans 3:10, Romans 3:23, Romans 7:14-24, and 1 John 1:8 that says we are sinners and we cannot help but to sin and that no believer can overcome sin this side of Heaven (which would even include grievous sin).

For you believe King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder (Which means you believe that you can tell others that they are saved if they commit such sins) like a King David, correct? For after all, nobody can stop sinning, right? However, the Bible teaches we can overcome grievous sin (See 1 Corinthians 10:13, Romans 13:14, Galatians 5:24, 1 Peter 4:1-2, 2 Corinthians 7:1). In light of these Biblical facts, how do you not see that telling others that King David was saved in his sins of adultery and murder as not teaching a license to sin? For even if you were to tell them they can do these sins temporarily as long as they confess them to God, it is still telling them that they can sin and still be saved on some level (Which is a violation of basic morality). Would not God have to agree with this kind of justification of sin or evil in order for it to work? Can God agree with sin?

What would be the purpose of chastening under this kind of belief?
It would be like chastening a dog with an uncontrollable pooping problem.
It would be cruel of the master to chasten the animal if such were the case.

You said:

There is your conundrum and it makes it unhelpful to hypothesise things that never happened as we may cast doubt and fear on the unlearned that is unnecessary.

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The conundrum is your belief that says King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder. It is self destructive and telling folks this will not lead anyone into living righteously. They will just think they can use an excuse the next time they sin (not worrying about the many warnings in Scripture Jesus warned us about in regards to how sin can destroy our souls - See Matthew 5:28-30, Matthew 6:15, Matthew 12:37, Matthew 25:31-46).

Dorothy Mae said:

Jason's version is more like "whom the Lord loves, he immediately and without any patience changes his status to unsaved and going to hell if he sins."

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Right, because GOD is holy and He cannot justify our thinking that we can commit grievous sin and be rewarded with the goodness of salvation.

Also, I am talking about grievous sin and not minor transgressions or faults (Psalms 19:12). For example: While a believer should be baptized because it is very important spiritually, baptism is not a command that leads to spiritual death if it is disobeyed in this life (See 1 Peter 3:21). In Matthew 5, Jesus tells us to rejoice when there are those who speak evil of you falsely because of Jesus. However, there are no dire consequences to our souls mentioned in the Bible in disobeying this particular command by Jesus (Granted, again, we should seek to obey this command). But the point here is that the New Testament makes it clear in what kinds of sins can condemn us.


God gives many believers or Christians their whole lives to fulfill these things. God gives them space and time to repent while they are still alive physically. But if a person abides in grievous sin, they are abiding in spiritual death. I really wish things were easier or different. Trust me. I do. But I cannot in good conscience change what God's Word plainly says to accommodate anyone.

Dorothy Mae said:

Ket not unwholesome words come out of your mouth. I won’t dirty you mind nor mine by describing them.

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So the Bible does not talk about these kinds of sins?

You said:

Again, those who really walk with God know He is patient waiting and wanting all to come to repentance. And we do not describe in detail the deeds men do that God hates. Actually, we hate them too.

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Are you implying that I do not walk with God because I do not see your view of God's patience? Again, I believe the Bible perfectly teaches that GOD is patient with those who sin (Including believers). Just because they may abide in spiritual death for a short amount of time, does not mean they cannot come back through repentance. In the Parable of the Prodigal Son, when the son came home and repented to his father, he told his son that was "dead" and is "alive again" two times. This is speaking in spiritual terms.

Let no corrupting talk come out of your mouths, but only such as is good for building up, as fits the occasion, that it may give grace to those who hear.

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I was not asking an overly dark description of details of such sins. General mention of sin in how the Bible says it is fine. The Bible does warn against many sins and these warnings are there as a means to safeguard our own souls. We can overcome if we stay close to Christ and His teachings.

Dorothy Mae said:

Jason's version is more like "whom the Lord loves, he immediately and without any patience changes his status to unsaved and going to hell if he sins."

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1 Corinthians 2:16 says we have the mind of Christ.
Do you think Christ could ever justify sin?
I don't believe He is capable of doing that because I believe Jesus is GOD (the second person of the Godhead or the Trinity).
Now, if we truly have the mind of Christ, we will not justify sin by saying King David was saved while he committed his sins of adultery and murder.

Dorothy Mae said:

You have a very low or a legalistic understanding of fellowship with the Lord. Ask how many people you know asked God in their fellowship time with him, whom to marry, what occupation to learn, where to live and He told them in words the answer. You won’t like it but some barely have any relationship with God and some, those who obey Him, hear his voice and have more of His spirit. This is why there are so many different views on scripture and God himself. Some really know Him and others make up stuff to fill in the gaps.

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Is not agreeing with sin and evil by saying that we can murder and be in God's good Kingdom a justification of sin? Can God agree with sin? Surely not.
For what fellowship does light have with darkness?
God is not in the business of condoning our thinking that we can be rewarded with salvation for doing sin (even just one time) that He clearly condemns in His Word.

Jason0047 said:

1 John 5:12 says He that has the Son has life and He that does not have the Son does not have life. Life is associated with eternal life or salvation.

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You said:

Where is fellowship mentioned here?

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So you don't think HAVING the Son is not talking about fellowship?
Verse 11 says, "...this life is in his Son."

Skip back a chapter and it says this:

"God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him." (1 John 4:9).

"Whosoever shall confess that Jesus is the Son of God, God dwelleth in him, and he in God." (1 John 4:15).

You said:

Is eternal life the only goal? Three of his disciples knew him better. There are degrees of knowing.
There are degrees of the spirit in filling too. God is not like you, judgement is at the end after death. Read this in Rev. There are degrees of abiding in him.
#6. 1 John 1:7 says if we walk in the Light as He is in the Light, the blood of Jesus Christ cleanses us from all sin. Is salvation the end goal for you?
God is a lot more patient and merciful than paint Him to be.
If you give a cup of cold water to a child, is that his righteousness or yours?
Jnow what a reprobate is? Not close to Christian.
Doesn’t sound like it. You write that David was designated “unsaved” when committing adultery. That’s judgemental with no patience as to the outcome. Immediately judging before any mercy.
I agree but it doesn’t mean one sub and you are immediately designated “unsaved” and the name blotted out. God is much more patient and merciful than you describe.
Peter fell away and Jesus didn’t pronounce him then “unsaved.”

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Currently I am working on a project for the Lord. So I will have to get back to you on these other verses.

May God's love shine upon you this fine evening (even if we disagree).

Dorothy Mae said:

Not in the graphic detail you do which was totally unnecessary for the discussion.
Not st all. But that you read into the post what isn’t there and take offense tells me the level of fellowship. where does anyone say of a christian sins he suddenly abides in a spirit of death? That is hyperbole. He didn’t say he was abiding in the spirit of death.

Try next time not to be so graphic. The spirit of God within me felt dirty reading your description. If you are talking sins, stay away from titilating ones.

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While Dan Corner is not my favorite Pastor, and I wish he was a little more loving with his words, his study on spiritual death is very enlightening if you are willing to be open to checking it out.

SPIRITUAL DEATH Meaning | What Is Spiritual Death