The question cessationists must answer.
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Alithis
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love it .. yes .. the term "gifts" does not well portray the situation .. one is not gifted like given a pink box with a particular single thing in it and thats yours and your neighbor cant have it lol.
i agree fully with what youve said above .
it is why i prefer (just a me thing ) to favour the term .. the "Attributes of the Holy Spirit . for we all receive the SAME holy Spirit and he( God ) can do everything.
for me these attributes are made MORE active with more revelation and so comprehension in SOME for the express purpose that they then equip those around them to also move in the same attributes as the holy spirit wills . (after all he says desire earnestly ALL the gifts (attributes) of the Spirit. but the largest point to be highlighted is that all these gifts are given for the work of the Gospel to the WHOLE body -and that introduces a whole other topic in regard to inactive church attendees
which i wont start here haha .i mist say its nice to be agreeing -i THINK we've had lack of communication disagreements in the past but i cant recall about what nor desire to . but hey iv found on CF that iv both fully disagreed then agreed with the same people on here because we grow .
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Alithis
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lovely point - because pauls generation and all they learned has now gone other then the written record . so each generation has to come to a knowledge of the lord Jesus step out in faith (that's obedience ) and then grow . so all the attributes of the holy Spirit are now required more and more to each generation
.ie -you may "hear" with your ears what you grandfather says about the war he fought in. but until you fight in a war you cannot begin to comprehend the full implicated meaning behind his words ..you need to enter into the spirit of the thing to KNOW it . we have the words and testimony of those who went before us as example but not as teacher (the holy spirit is the teacher -as it is written you have no need that any "man" teach you .)just so - we need the HOLY SPIRIT to teach US and to lead US into all truth here today in our own lives . those who say they do not are saying they are wiser then God ... tch tch .
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Alithis
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well your first 6 words is what i said . but i think perhaps the rest is a bit over the top . but i see the sentiment though and how what they say could ,by unintended implication , give that impression.
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Francis Drake
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You constantly resort to this sort of statement as your way of trumping everyone else's viewpoints, but it is a fallacious argument.
The scriptures might be infallible, but you are very fallible, and it is you, not your bible that is doing all the talking here.
You might know your bible back to front and inside out, but in the end its not the words on the page that count, but your mere opinion of those words.
I note that you never just quote those scriptures, you fill your posts with loads of opinionated explanation, yes, its your opinion, not the scriptures that we reject.
There is no problem with the scriptures, but there are countless problems with man's opinions about those scriptures.
We are all fallible and all have imperfect views of scripture. And you are no more scripture based than the rest of us.
And to see how useless scripture can be in ending an argument, here's Jesus speaking what will become scripture, and the disciples immediately spreading their false interpretation of those words.
John21v21So Peter seeing him said to Jesus, “Lord, and what about this man?” 22Jesus said to him, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow Me!” 23Therefore this saying went out among the brethren that that disciple would not die; but Jesus did not say to him that he would not die, but only, “If I want him to remain until I come, what is that to you?”
The key words here are, "but Jesus did not say."
If the apostles send a message from the living bible (Jesus) so hopelessly off course, its not the best sense to claim that your bible keeps you perfectly right!
Just my opinion!
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W2L
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I challenge any of you to tell me why, if the churches are in fact spirit lead, why do they all teach different doctrine? You want to boast in teachers and healers but where is the truth in all this? I have repeatedly asked this question and not one of you will answer.
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So, if knowledge hasn't ceased, then why do you believe that Paul is saying the other 2 gifts he named in 1 Cor. 13 have ceased? Isn't this what you believe?
Someone addressed what Paul said about being like a child a few posts back. I think it was Francis Drake.
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Actually, I addressed this a few pages ago. Maybe you should try reading some of the posts!
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- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
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Wow! Do you really not see your own lack of communication??? I have answered many of your questions (or accusations) to me! Are you reading all of the posts?
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Speaking of deflection, you never did answer my question from post #687:
Out of the following scriptures, which do you say are no longer effective?
And why do you think those particular ones are no longer effective?
Or do you claim than none of them is any longer effective?
Romans 12:6-8
6 We have different Gifts based on the grace that was given to us. So if your Gift is prophecy, use your Gift in proportion to your faith.
7 If service, devote yourself to serving; if teaching, devote yourself to teaching;
8 if exhorting, with encouragement; if giving, with generosity; if leading, with diligence; if mercy, with cheerfulness.
1 Corinthians 12:28
And God has placed in the church first of all apostles, second prophets, third teachers, then miracles, then Gifts of healing, of helping, of guidance, and of different kinds of tongues.
Ephesians 4:11
So Christ himself gave the apostles, the prophets, the evangelists, the pastors and teachers, to equip his people for works of service, so that the body of Christ may be built up until we all reach unity in the faith and in the knowledge of the Son of God and become mature, attaining to the whole measure of the fullness of Christ.
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I've put a lot of work into my posts answering some of your questions. You can put some work into finding it!
The judge stands at the door? Are you being sentenced for a crime?
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Alithis
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seriously ... this has been answered numerous times
there are varying KINDS of tongues .. varying differing manifestations type uses and purposes .
as iv pointed out to you before .. go read the testimony of "Surpise Sithole ".. you can google it .. then you can contact him personally and ask him if you wish . he has often experienced preaching to people who could not understand him and suddenly his speech changed and he fund himself speaking perfectly in their language .. .. the very thing you say ceased ..is still happening now in this day and age when that TYPE of the gift is required .
of course you then said .oh thats 2nd hand testimony and you dont believe it ...
so what to be done .. i direct you to that man himself so that it wil not be 2nd hand testimony .
personally i speak in tongues a number of differing kinds .
have had visions occur
have had devils cast out and seen it often in doing it
have seen people come up out of water baptism and instantly speak another tongue as they do
experienced many healings
have had words of knowledge telling me things about a person i'm witnessing to which i could not know
and many other things
but what is to be done in your case ?
....... we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.
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Being the "knit-picker" that I am....(thank you brother Anto9us) I prefer the term "manifestations", just because I find that to be biblical.
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
FYI, for those who aren't tongue talking Charismatics like the church of Corinth, I might add that when the verse above says this "manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man" it means every man in the Charismatic church to which this letter was written. It certainly isn't written to the "unbelievers" or the nay-saying "ungifted/unlearned" church which Paul later addresses.
I totally agree....but then, so does scripture.
No surprise to you I'm sure. But let me explain anyway.ROM 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
IOW, the more you allow yourself to be used by the Holy Spirit 'in proportion to your faith, the greater your "faith proportion" grows in 'any' particular 'gifting manifestation'. But with the false teaching in the Charismatic church concerning 'YOU have A gift' singular, most baby Charismatics just concentrate on 'that one manifestation' avoiding the Holy Spirit's unction to move in others. I know that, as for myself personally, I have been used by the Holy Spirit to manifest all but one of His 9 gifts/manifestations as listed in 1Cor 12. And I have been used in 'all of them' (plural) because I have 'the gift (singular) of the supernatural baptism from the Holy Spirit', which avails me to being used of Him in ALL of His supernatural manifestations IMO.
Hmmmm. Now you have me 'wondering' wherist thou mightest be going with said topic?but the largest point to be highlighted is that all these gifts are given for the work of the Gospel to the WHOLE body -and that introduces a whole other topic in regard to inactive church attendees
My primary allegiance 'here' is to God and what I believe is the truth. It is most certainly not to ethernet Christians which are a virtual reality IMO, for the most part. I don't try to offend by being 'that way' but I know many have taken an offense. But I figure that's their problem. Having said that, I also am so grateful to have this 'time' of agreement and fellowship with you too Alithis.i mist say its nice to be agreeing -i THINK we've had lack of communication disagreements in the past but i cant recall about what nor desire to . but hey iv found on CF that iv both fully disagreed then agreed with the same people on here because we grow .
But, as you, I really don't remember any particular 'thing' we differed on, nor does it matter. Though I'm pretty sure that I could make a quick 'one sentence' list of things to remind you, it probably wasn't 'communication' problem as much as it was you thinking I was a heretic. If it was put to a vote, I wouldn't be surprised if I would be considered the biggest heretic around. But I rest in my assurance of 'who I am' because I most assuredly know 'whose I am' and what I believe He has allowed me to 'learn from others' but to ultimately be 'taught by Him'.I think I'm done for the day.
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Alithis
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rest well and stop trying to steal my heretical position haha
Being the "knit-picker" that I am....(thank you brother Anto9us) I prefer the term "manifestations", just because I find that to be biblical.
1 Corinthians 12:7 But the manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man to profit withal.
FYI, for those who aren't tongue talking Charismatics like the church of Corinth, I might add that when the verse above says this "manifestation of the Spirit is given to every man" it means every man in the Charismatic church to which this letter was written. It certainly isn't written to the "unbelievers" or the nay-saying "ungifted/unlearned" church which Paul later addresses.
I totally agree....but then, so does scripture.
ROM 12:6 Having then gifts differing according to the grace that is given to us, whether prophecy, let us prophesy according to the proportion of faith;
IOW, the more you allow yourself to be used by the Holy Spirit 'in proportion to your faith, the greater your "faith proportion" grows in 'any' particular 'gifting manifestation'. But with the false teaching in the Charismatic church concerning 'YOU have A gift' singular, most baby Charismatics just concentrate on 'that one manifestation' avoiding the Holy Spirit's unction to move in others. I know that, as for myself personally, I have been used by the Holy Spirit to manifest all but one of His 9 gifts/manifestations as listed in 1Cor 12. And I have been used in 'all of them' (plural) because I have 'the gift (singular) of the supernatural baptism from the Holy Spirit', which avails me to being used of Him in ALL of His supernatural manifestations IMO.
Hmmmm. Now you have me 'wondering' wherist thou mightest be going with said topic?
My primary allegiance 'here' is to God and what I believe is the truth. It is most certainly not to ethernet Christians which are a virtual reality IMO, for the most part. I don't try to offend by being 'that way' but I know many have taken an offense. But I figure that's their problem. Having said that, I also am so grateful to have this 'time' of agreement and fellowship with you too Alithis.
I think I'm done for the day.
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