Should atheists believe in the God of christianity if...
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I agree one cannot be certain of what is not observable.
If I recall my post was in response to something by the OP stating that atheists are certain that God does not exist and yet suggests that they can just believe in God because it is the right thing to do. So I was questioning how a person certain (according to OP) can just abandon that certainty and essentially pretend to believe in something.
I am not certain, however, I find nothing to convict me to believe ‘just in case’.
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Well, because God is real. There is a tangible experience that comes along with faith - if it is real faith. I'm sure there are also people who just say they are Christians because they don't happen to be Muslims or Jews or Hindus or whatever. Not talking about that in-name-only stuff.
Unlike the way the world works, you believe first and THEN you see. He makes Himself very real when you are searching for Him like silver and gold.
In the world, you must see and then you believe. Everything about the Kingdom is backward of the world. Take sowing and reaping. In the world, you gather up for yourself and THEN give some. In the Kingdom, you give and then receive (sometimes money, sometimes other things). It's an alternative perspective.
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Yes, I can. Because I have a relationship. I don't merely believe in a concept.
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If you cannot demonstrate that the object of your relationship exists to a third party, you cannot be certain you aren't deceiving yourself.
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If you believe first, and it is important that what you believe bears out as true, then you will find evidence to support your belief even if it means forcing something to fit as evidence. It’s called confirmation bias.
If someone who believes in ghosts walks into a building they have been told is haunted, there is a good chance they will interpret unknown noises, lights, shadows, etc as evidence of spirits acting on the living world. However, if a person with no inclination to believe in ghosts, spirits, hauntings, etc. goes into the same building they will likely interpret the unknown noises and or lighting phenomena as due to something physically explainable and not jump to ghosts as the cause.
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Oh I can, but it has to be a third party who has not already pre-decided that this relationship isn't possible.
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I'm talking about much more than confirmation bias. Confirmation bias is such stuff as, "I was wondering what cereal to eat today, thinking Cheerios, and then a Cheerios commercial comes on!". I'm not talking about that kind of stuff at all.
Nor talking about ghosts, but I know what you mean there.
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I was referring to this definition of confirmation bias:
- the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one's existing beliefs or theories.
If one must first believe and then the evidence will be revealed, then how can said person be certain they are not just interpreting the 'evidence' as support of their belief because that is what they want it to be? When in truth this 'evidence' may be purely coincidence or even not related to the belief at all?
An example since I am sometimes not very clear:
Bob prays about whether or not he should quit his job where he is unhappy. Bob asks for a sign that he should stay or go. Next morning he is browsing job ads an he sees an opening he is qualified for and is his dream job to boot. He believes this is the sign God wants him to quit his current job.
Now is this a sign from God or is it confirmation that he is unhappy and always intended to quit once he found a better replacement?
I would argue that he has subconsciously been looking for an out and his prayer was his mind telling him it's time to act on his desire. He wakes up feeling motivated for change and finds that there are better options out there. He believes it was God speaking through a job search. I, however, believe he finally hit his breaking point with job dissatisfaction, made a move for change, and due to his confirmation bias assigned finding positive job potential elsewhere as a sign from God.
I don't find any problem with Bob's belief. It makes him happy and also gives him the comfort of feeling something higher is watching out for him. It's just not convincing to me because I can see a different and more logical reason for Bob finding a better job.
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jayem
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Faith is really the crux of the matter, isn't it? You have faith that God is real, and that accepting Jesus as your savior will be your salvation. But there are those of us who just don't have that faith. I know Christians don't agree on this. But doesn't the Bible indicate that faith is a gift from God?
For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith. --Romans 12:3
For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God; not as a result of works, so that no one may boast. --Ephesians 2:8
They were saying, “Is not this Jesus, the son of Joseph, whose father and mother we know? How does He now say, ‘I have come down out of heaven’?” Jesus answered and said to them, “Do not grumble among yourselves. No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up on the last day. John 6:42-44
I haven't yet received that gift. So if there is a God, how would it please him if I claimed to have faith, but really had overwhelming doubts? Wouldn't God know I'm pretending?
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Faith comes by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God. Is one consuming the Word of God? If not, faith is not necessarily going to just magically come.
There is a spiritual gift of faith, one of the 9 gifts of the Spirit, but that is a gift to be used for the body, like Word of knowledge or word of wisdom or healing.
There is a measure of faith in every man, we are told in Romans, and as you quoted above. And creation itself, reveals God.
What is God's will about drawing anyone to Himself? He already told us. John 12:32 And I, when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all men to Myself.”
The Lord is not slow about His promise, as some count slowness, but is patient toward you, not wishing for any to perish but for all to come to repentance. 2 Peter 3:9
He already gave the gift. He already said, "It is finished."
He's just waiting for us to catch up.
Your feelings don't matter. You can have doubts. You can have a bad day. It's fine. We don't live off our feelings, or we should not.
Imagine being really angry at a spouse or a child; that doesn't mean you don't love him because you don't "feel it" right now. Love is a decision. You made the decision long ago and it stands, regardless of your current feelings at the moment. Same with Jesus, and faith.
You just have to decide what you believe. It's all already there for you, if you accept it.
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the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
So it is a case of what is real. How do we judge what is real and what is not?
Is the Christian God hidden? How is this so?
Dont be shy my dear. What inconsistencies do you speak of? One should suffice for now.
Do Christians preach a future proof or a proof you can have anytime you humble yourself to God?
What is this future proof re Christianity?
My claim is you can have a personal relationship with God by Jesus Christ through the Holy Spirit. Why does this sound incredible?
What would make it stick above the crowd? What do you need to make a leap of faith?
Please to meet you atheist
i am a servant of yours and my saviour the Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God and the Redeemer of lost men.Do you believe you are lost, found or going in the right direction - if so please explain?
Would you make a leap of faith if that was required?
Your opinions are right or you would not have them. Nobody has opinions they do not agree with, we do not go around saying a believe in lies!
Who do you depend on that has crediblity?
Why are you more credible than me?
So you are a moral authority. What you have done is suggest you would know and do better and more moral?
Please indulge me, What is your moral authority to judge God in this way?
No my dear. He had regret ie to feel sadness or disappointment
The Lord saw how great the wickedness of the human race had become on the earth,and that every inclination of the thoughts of the human heart was only evil all the time.
God saw what wicked men were doing and felt sad not misguided or wrong.
Are you not familiar with the parable of the weeds? This is like Christianity 101 my dear.
The Parable of the Weeds
24 Jesus told them another parable: “The kingdom of heaven is like a man who sowed good seed in his field. 25 But while everyone was sleeping, his enemy came and sowed weeds among the wheat, and went away.26 When the wheat sprouted and formed heads, then the weeds also appeared.
27 “The owner’s servants came to him and said, ‘Sir, didn’t you sow good seed in your field? Where then did the weeds come from?’
28 “‘An enemy did this,’ he replied.
“The servants asked him, ‘Do you want us to go and pull them up?’
29 “‘No,’ he answered, ‘because while you are pulling the weeds, you may uproot the wheat with them. 30 Let both grow together until the harvest. At that time I will tell the harvesters: First collect the weeds and tie them in bundles to be burned; then gather the wheat and bring it into my barn.’”
What do you think?
God would have to speak to you in the only language you understand. What language do you only understand?
What is this language that God speaks?
What is it difficult for you and Him to communicate?
Cheers
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I judge it based on what I know about reality, and what I know about “make believe”.
Either he is hidden, or he doesn't exist. (obviously I believe the latter) because he can’t be detected via any of our 5 senses.
C’mon; you don’t think all of those denominations are a result of agreement do you?
The future proof is when Jesus returns. As far as humbling yourself before God; that doesn’t work.
Neither God, Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit can be detected.
If he could be experienced without faith. All religions seem to require faith.
I define faith as to believe something contrary to what logic, reason, and everything you know about reality tells you. I would have to be dishonest with myself in order to employ faith.
I am not lost thus no need to be found. I am also happy with the direction my life is going.Please to meet you atheist
Do you believe you are lost, found or going in the right direction - if so please explain?
As I mentioned before, faith would require I lie to myself.
I gotta go right now, I will respond to the rest later
Ken
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People I trust.
To ME I am more credible than you; because I know myself.
Not just me, anybody would; even you.
I have never judged God; I judge the people who claim to speak for God.
Regret? Sadness? Disappointment? These are things flawed humans experience. the reason we experience regret, sadness, and disappointment is because things happen in a way that we didn’t expect to happen. But if God is all knowing, that would mean he knew this would happen and would have no reason to feel this way; it would be expected. Do you agree?
That parable involves people who are not all knowing nor all powerful; if they were they would have prevented the enemy from planting the weeds in the first place. It is always better to prevent problems rather than reacting to them.
If God were all knowing, he would know the language I speak.
Ken
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the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
So? Meet more atheists.
eudaimonia,
Mark
Hey hey my friend
Is that an absolute certainty? (.eg there is no God)
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the iconoclast
Atheism is weak. Yep, I said it
Hey hey you marvel
Wow. Thank you for you prompt reply, heads up we have way more to go. I hope your in for a long ride
What do you know about reality in relation to the question - How do we judge what is real and what is not?
What do you know about "make believe" to justify reality?
How do you judge what is real and what is not?
God does not exist because you cannot discover or identify His presence or existence via any of your 5 senses.
How would this qualify as sound logic and reasoning? Please explain, statements are only good if you want me to accept your appeal to authority.
I have no issue with denominations. I am pentecostal, you know, the happy and clappy ones. atm i attend a Methodist church, maybe next week ill attend a baptist church.
Most denominations agree, Jesus is the only way to God. That little tidbit is whats important. All we be judged by God and we will have to account to Him, the main issue - who is Jesus Christ and what will you do with Him?
Lets have some fun. Please consider the below link.
Unthinkable: How can scientists disagree on basic 'facts'? - The Irish Times.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/unthinkable-how-can-scientists-disagree-on-basic-facts-1.2602178?mode=amp&ved=2ahUKEwjsrJqUidHeAhWGpY8KHX7tDZ4QFjAHegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw28IWjFzi4rNPhPOAe3vDpn&cf=1
It would seem science is not completely united, holding hands and sing kumbaya (although it would be cool to see)
How do you account for your trust in science if it is not in complete agreement?
Please excuse me. The second coming is not future proof, it is future judgement. This is christianity 101, you seem to be ignorant or have no understanding of christianity. Please excuse my bluntness my dear, no wonder you were fooled so easily.
Matthew 13:21
But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Why does humbling yourself to God not work? Need you to explain in more depth my friend
I have detected Them and so have many.
How do you know you cannot receive the Holy Spirit?
How is it absolutely certain God, Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit can be discovered or identified?
Well im sorry my friend. God has ordained it this way, it is the christian formula, it starts with you!
Why will you not do things Gods way? Why is your way better?
Well lets use the google standard so we are both on the same page.
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2.
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
Spiritual conviction is the key to faith noun 2. Why is spritual conviction contrary to logic? Give me something good
Now, ive had my experience and know it was from God - something you could not prove contrary or false. My faith is now noun 1.
I have complete trust in God and know Him. Why do you not have complete trust in science?
No my friend. You are lost and have been found
Where are you going? You know my position, im pentecostal Christian. What type of atheist are you?
How would faith be a lie to yourself?
Such as? Need more detail.
What do you know about yourself that makes you more credible than me?
So what happens if i believe you are incredible and you believe im incredible?
Who is your moral authority?
Kenny - His treatment of people in the Bible stories; like his treatment of Job, Adam and Eve, the people of Egypt via Moses, etc. etc.
What do you mean here?
Interesting we humans are flawed. Science is the conclusions of men who reason with facts. Is science flawed?
Why cant God experience sadness, disappointment or regret?
Anyways..This is called a setup and ill analyze how you did it. 1. You make an assumption. Ie sadness is only a thing a flawed human can make.
That is only partly true and not the only time we experience sadness, regret or disappointment (.eg because things didnt go the way expected).
That statement is false and a desperate attempt!
2. You give a reason and explanation for this assumption.
I do not agree. It is like a harvest, God wants good fruit and is willing to tolerate bad fruit for a good yield. He knew it would be worth it.
3. You say if that is so, than this must be so and you arrive at flawed logic.
Heads up my friend, im not new to this
Brother you missed the point here. God will let the rain fall on the wicked and just, this is a parable about Gods harvest and the outcome ie yield, good produce. The weeds and bad fruit will be discarded.
Your reply shows me you that you seem to lack any christian understanding! What were you doing when you called yourself a christian?
What? English? You wont be let off so easily my dear.
Explain yourself in more detail.
What is this language you speaks of? What does it mean?
Why is it difficult for you and Him to communicate?
My brother, You are telling me what you wont believe, but you will not tell me what you will believe. You cannot prove a negative. Your position is a negative, why are you bias against God?
Cheers
Wow. Thank you for you prompt reply, heads up we have way more to go. I hope your in for a long ride
What do you know about reality in relation to the question - How do we judge what is real and what is not?
What do you know about "make believe" to justify reality?
How do you judge what is real and what is not?
God does not exist because you cannot discover or identify His presence or existence via any of your 5 senses.
How would this qualify as sound logic and reasoning? Please explain, statements are only good if you want me to accept your appeal to authority.
I have no issue with denominations. I am pentecostal, you know, the happy and clappy ones.
atm i attend a Methodist church, maybe next week ill attend a baptist church.Most denominations agree, Jesus is the only way to God. That little tidbit is whats important. All we be judged by God and we will have to account to Him, the main issue - who is Jesus Christ and what will you do with Him?
Lets have some fun. Please consider the below link.
Unthinkable: How can scientists disagree on basic 'facts'? - The Irish Times.
https://www.google.com.au/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://www.irishtimes.com/culture/unthinkable-how-can-scientists-disagree-on-basic-facts-1.2602178?mode=amp&ved=2ahUKEwjsrJqUidHeAhWGpY8KHX7tDZ4QFjAHegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw28IWjFzi4rNPhPOAe3vDpn&cf=1
It would seem science is not completely united, holding hands and sing kumbaya (although it would be cool to see)
How do you account for your trust in science if it is not in complete agreement?
Please excuse me. The second coming is not future proof, it is future judgement. This is christianity 101, you seem to be ignorant or have no understanding of christianity. Please excuse my bluntness my dear, no wonder you were fooled so easily.
Matthew 13:21
But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.
Why does humbling yourself to God not work? Need you to explain in more depth my friend
I have detected Them and so have many.
How do you know you cannot receive the Holy Spirit?
How is it absolutely certain God, Jesus, nor the Holy Spirit can be discovered or identified?
Well im sorry my friend. God has ordained it this way, it is the christian formula, it starts with you!
Why will you not do things Gods way? Why is your way better?
Well lets use the google standard so we are both on the same page.
1.
complete trust or confidence in someone or something.
2.
strong belief in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual conviction rather than proof.
Spiritual conviction is the key to faith noun 2. Why is spritual conviction contrary to logic? Give me something good
Now, ive had my experience and know it was from God - something you could not prove contrary or false. My faith is now noun 1.
I have complete trust in God and know Him. Why do you not have complete trust in science?
No my friend. You are lost and have been found
Where are you going? You know my position, im pentecostal Christian. What type of atheist are you?
How would faith be a lie to yourself?
Such as? Need more detail.
What do you know about yourself that makes you more credible than me?
So what happens if i believe you are incredible and you believe im incredible?
Who is your moral authority?
Kenny - His treatment of people in the Bible stories; like his treatment of Job, Adam and Eve, the people of Egypt via Moses, etc. etc.
What do you mean here?
Interesting we humans are flawed. Science is the conclusions of men who reason with facts. Is science flawed?
Why cant God experience sadness, disappointment or regret?
Anyways..This is called a setup and ill analyze how you did it. 1. You make an assumption. Ie sadness is only a thing a flawed human can make.
That is only partly true and not the only time we experience sadness, regret or disappointment (.eg because things didnt go the way expected).
That statement is false and a desperate attempt!
2. You give a reason and explanation for this assumption.
I do not agree. It is like a harvest, God wants good fruit and is willing to tolerate bad fruit for a good yield. He knew it would be worth it.
3. You say if that is so, than this must be so and you arrive at flawed logic.
Heads up my friend, im not new to this
Brother you missed the point here. God will let the rain fall on the wicked and just, this is a parable about Gods harvest and the outcome ie yield, good produce. The weeds and bad fruit will be discarded.
Your reply shows me you that you seem to lack any christian understanding! What were you doing when you called yourself a christian?
What? English? You wont be let off so easily my dear.
Explain yourself in more detail.
What is this language you speaks of? What does it mean?
Why is it difficult for you and Him to communicate?
My brother, You are telling me what you wont believe, but you will not tell me what you will believe. You cannot prove a negative. Your position is a negative, why are you bias against God?
Cheers
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It's as certain as that there are no leprechauns.
The question, however, is faulty. Certainty simply has no meaning when it comes to such questions. There is no degree of certainty or uncertainty possible when asking about unfalsifiable claims with vague standards of evidence. The issue of certainty or uncertainty only applies when there is a context in which one can judge probabilities based on prior knowledge.
So, my answer to you is that your question can only be answered as "the question is invalid".
And you still haven't spoken to enough atheists.
eudaimonia,
Mark
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