Is assurance of salvation possible?

Not David · Nov 3, 2018

Mark Quayle said:
I have read a few responses to your question, and your responses to them. Perhaps you didn't follow one of the responses well --salvation is of God. No matter what you feel, the assurance comes from the bare fact that God does exactly what he sets out to do, and nobody can deter him from accomplishing it.

Now whether or not you feel that assurance is another matter, and pretty much irrelevant as to whether or not you are saved. But maybe the way you feel about it is what you were asking about.

And whether or not you are indeed indwelt by God himself is of the utmost importance, as to your salvation. But again, it is not your decision that determines that.

But for what it is worth: My feeling of assurance no longer even considers the question except as a goad to keep me faithful. My assurance does not deal with whether I am one of those who God has chosen for his own, but from the absolute security in the fact that the Judge of all the Earth will do what is right with his creation. At this point, I can't help but feel like if I am rejected, he is still to be praised. (Granted, if on that day, I am rejected, I will not be thanking him for that, but will indeed acknowledge that he is righteous.

I believe God is the one who originates grace but it doesn't mean we don't cooperate in it. Otherwise, I agree with the statement that God is the perfect judge.

Not David · Nov 3, 2018

Invalidusername said:
No you cannot have assurance. Maybe God loves you enough to spare you and maybe He doesn't.

Free will is an illusion. God may allow you to become an apostate or He may spare you from that fate.

Free will is not an illusion, otherwise we are puppets who should not be judged because our sins we're premeditated.

FireDragon76 · Nov 3, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Well, it seems assurance with salvation is based on faith alone, however, faith alone doesn't even mean there is a chance you won't stop believing in the future. Besides the strawmen attacks toward Orthodoxy, it has been an interesting thread.

Sure, belief in solafide does not necessitate "once saved, always saved". One can make a shipwreck of faith. It just doesn't necessarily entail some kind of pelagianism or semi-pelagianism: "Get in by grace, stay in by works".

FireDragon76 · Nov 3, 2018

Invalidusername said:
No you cannot have assurance. Maybe God loves you enough to spare you and maybe He doesn't.

If that were true, Christianity would be nothing more than hot air. Grace would merely be hypothetical, grace would not be for me.

The Gospel of John explicitly tells us why it is written, so that we believe and have life in Jesus' name. That is a promise. It is foolish to say there is no assurance in the Scriptures.

Mark Quayle · Nov 3, 2018

David Cabrera said:
I believe God is the one who originates grace but it doesn't mean we don't cooperate in it. Otherwise, I agree with the statement that God is the perfect judge.

Yes, we do indeed cooperate, but that is not the means of salvation. The unregenerate is incapable of "taking the first step" but not only that, the second step does not save. It is only the result of the regeneration that has already been done. God gives the birth, the new creature is the result. The "free will" that chooses Christ is the result --not the cause.

Now the sequence, to my mind, is really irrelevant, but the cause is undeniable. Scripture is clear on the cause, and the denial of the ability of man of himself to do anything.

aiki · Nov 3, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Yes, God does lie but the Bible also warns us to keep in obedience to God. God doesn't take away our free will to choose him, so we can reject him too.

No one chooses God unless He has first worked to persuade that person to Himself. And God does His persuading work, not when a sinner wants God to do it, but when God decides He will do it. God does not wait on sinners to desire Him before He acts to bring them to a saving faith in Christ. If He did, no one would be saved. Every person before they come to faith in Christ is as Paul described them in Ephesians 2:1-3. In such a condition, no one can "freely" choose God.

Now, if no one on their own moves toward God, why would you think you have the freedom to unilaterally decide you can move away from Him once He has drawn you to Himself? Yes, you must at some point choose God, but being brought to the place where that is even possible is God's work, not yours. I don't see, then, that God gives you the freedom to undo the work He has done in bringing you to Himself. Your assent wasn't a part of His initiating the process leading to your salvation and your assent isn't necessary to His keeping you as one of His own.

John 10:26-29
26 But you do not believe, because you are not of My sheep, as I said to you.
27 My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me.
28 And I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; neither shall anyone snatch them out of My hand.
29 My Father, who has given them to Me, is greater than all; and no one is able to snatch them out of My Father's hand.

I don't see how you are exempted from "anyone" and "no one." These terms seem very universal to me. No one can snatch a saved person out of God's hand - not even the saved person himself.

Invalidusername · Nov 3, 2018

David Cabrera said:
Free will is not an illusion, otherwise we are puppets who should not be judged because our sins we're premeditated.

Free will is an illusion in terms of God sets everything up and chain events occur and whatever happens is what will cause you to choose as you do. Whether you are saved or not is entirely up to God if He decides to make a chain reaction of events that lead up to your regeneration. Same thing with apostasy. God knows what will occur to cause anyone to apostatize. If He loves you, He won't let that happen.

FireDragon76 said:
If that were true, Christianity would be nothing more than hot air. Grace would merely be hypothetical, grace would not be for me.

The Gospel of John explicitly tells us why it is written, so that we believe and have life in Jesus' name. That is a promise. It is foolish to say there is no assurance in the Scriptures.

Sorry man but I know for a fact I cannot have assurance. Maybe if you became a born-again believer and never backslide and fall into deep sin then you will have assurance but until then you will always have doubts if you fit the plethora of verses that say you can believe and still be damned.

FireDragon76 · Nov 3, 2018

Invalidusername said:
Sorry man but I know for a fact I cannot have assurance. Maybe if you became a born-again believer and never backslide and fall into deep sin then you will have assurance but until then you will always have doubts if you fit the plethora of verses that say you can believe and still be damned.

Our justification isn't conditioned on absence of doubt, just our willingness to believe. It doesn't take alot of faith, any will do.

"Backsliding" is a term that American evangelicals use, it has no usage in historic churches. We are both justified and yet sinners. God declares us righteous, but that doesn't imply perfect sinlessness. The Christian faith is lived out in struggle. That doesn't imply we go looking for struggle, but struggle will find us. As Jesus says, sufficient for the day are its own worries.

Invalidusername · Nov 3, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
Our justification isn't conditioned on our absence of doubt, just our willingness to believe. It doesn't take alot of faith, any will do.

The doctrine of justification by faith alone also has no room for considering "backsliding" a problem, in fact its a normal part of the Christian life. We are both justified and yet sinners. God declares us righteous, but that doesn't imply perfect sinlessness.

Even the demons believe and tremble.

Read the parable about the talents. The servant that only produced one talent when requested was thrown into the place where there is gnashing of teeth. He had faith but got damned anyways.

FireDragon76 · Nov 3, 2018

Invalidusername said:
Even the demons believe and tremble.

Read the parable about the talents. The servant that only produced one talent when requested was thrown into the place where there is gnashing of teeth. He had faith but got damned anyways.

Demons do not have faith in the sense Martin Luther or Lutherans use the term. Demons do not have trust or loyalty. They have mental assent only.

The foolish servant buried his talent because he expected his master to be harsh. Evangelical Christians expect God to be gracious.

Invalidusername · Nov 3, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
Demons do not have faith in the sense Martin Luther or Lutherans use the term. Demons do not have trust or loyalty. They have mental assent only.

The foolish servant buried his talent because he expected his master to be harsh. Evangelical Christians expect God to be gracious.

He expected his master to be harsh and his master proved him to be correct.

FireDragon76 · Nov 3, 2018

But God isn't actually harsh, God is gracious. As the presiding bishop of my church pointed out this year at our general convention, grace isn't just what God does, grace is who God is.

Invalidusername · Nov 3, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
But God isn't actually harsh, God is gracious.

Romans 11:22
"22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off."

Like I said, it only matters if God loves you. If He loves you, He will be gracious. If He hates you? RIP.

Malachi 1

1 “I have loved you,” says the Lord.

“But you ask, ‘How have you loved us?’

“Was not Esau Jacob’s brother?” declares the Lord. “Yet I have loved Jacob, 3 but Esau I have hated, and I have turned his hill country into a wasteland and left his inheritance to the desert jackals.”

4 Edom may say, “Though we have been crushed, we will rebuild the ruins.”

But this is what the Lord Almighty says: “They may build, but I will demolish. They will be called the Wicked Land, a people always under the wrath of the Lord. 5 You will see it with your own eyes and say, ‘Great is the Lord—even beyond the borders of Israel!’"

There is no assurance.

Oldmantook · Nov 4, 2018

FireDragon76 said:
If that were true, Christianity would be nothing more than hot air. Grace would merely be hypothetical, grace would not be for me.

The Gospel of John explicitly tells us why it is written, so that we believe and have life in Jesus' name. That is a promise. It is foolish to say there is no assurance in the Scriptures.

Of course there is assurance. The germane question is whether assurance is all of God or does it require some cooperation on our part. In the gospel of John, everyone loves to quote John 3:16 where belief is required in order to have eternal life. However, very few quote Heb 5:9 where obedience is also required to have eternal life. Both are requisite as continuing to believe and continuing to obey results in assurance. One can no longer believe and/or no longer remain obedient resulting in forfeiture of salvation.

Rescued One · Nov 4, 2018

David Cabrera said:
But a person who was a goat can become a sheep, like those who weren't Christians but became ones.

No, goats can't become sheep. There is no such verse.

John 10
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd.

Those other sheep haven't heard him yet. He didn't say, "I have to go make sheep out of those goats." It doesn't work that way. The goats won't believe.

The reason some don't believe is because they aren't His sheep.

John 10
22 And it was at Jerusalem the feast of the dedication, and it was winter. 23 And Jesus walked in the temple in Solomon's porch. 24 Then came the Jews round about him, and said unto him, How long dost thou make us to doubt? If thou be the Christ, tell us plainly. 25 Jesus answered them, I told you, and ye believed not: the works that I do in my Father's name, they bear witness of me.26 But ye believe not, because ye are not of my sheep, as I said unto you. 27 My sheep hear my voice, and I know them, and they follow me: 28 And I give unto them eternal life; and they shall never perish, neither shall any man pluck them out of my hand. 29 My Father, which gave them me, is greater than all; and no man is able to pluck them out of my Father's hand.

Mark Quayle · Nov 4, 2018

Invalidusername said:
Free will is an illusion in terms of God sets everything up and chain events occur and whatever happens is what will cause you to choose as you do. Whether you are saved or not is entirely up to God if He decides to make a chain reaction of events that lead up to your regeneration. Same thing with apostasy. God knows what will occur to cause anyone to apostatize. If He loves you, He won't let that happen.

Sorry man but I know for a fact I cannot have assurance. Maybe if you became a born-again believer and never backslide and fall into deep sin then you will have assurance but until then you will always have doubts if you fit the plethora of verses that say you can believe and still be damned.

Assurance of what? (Btw, I love the sculpture. Now there's a self-made man!)

Assurance of salvation? I agree. I am not a reliable judge of that. I have a never ending record of fooling myself. But I do have assurance that the Judge of all the Earth will do what is right. --not that I deserve salvation, but that Christ has given it to whomever he will, and that is good.

Whether that is me or not isn't really the point anymore, but that God is to be praised for his judgements.

Rescued One · Nov 4, 2018

Oldmantook said:
Of course there is assurance. The germane question is whether assurance is all of God or does it require some cooperation on our part. In the gospel of John, everyone loves to quote John 3:16 where belief is required in order to have eternal life. However, very few quote Heb 5:9 where obedience is also required to have eternal life. Both are requisite as continuing to believe and continuing to obey results in assurance. One can no longer believe and/or no longer remain obedient resulting in forfeiture of salvation.

Faith comes from the Holy Spirit. It is one of His fruits. He NEVER gives dead faith.
NEVER!

Rescued One · Nov 4, 2018

Dorothy Mae said:
Or how one acts makes one over time a sheep or a goat.

Give us the verse.

Oldmantook · Nov 4, 2018

Phoebe Ann said:
Faith comes from the Holy Spirit. It is one of His fruits. He NEVER gives dead faith.
NEVER!

Of course the Holy Spirit never gives dead faith but you can become dead in your faith through unbelief and/or disobedience and therein lies the difference.

HatGuy · Nov 4, 2018

Invalidusername said:
Even the demons believe and tremble.

Read the parable about the talents. The servant that only produced one talent when requested was thrown into the place where there is gnashing of teeth. He had faith but got damned anyways.

This verse about demons is in the context of demons believing "God is one". Demons cannot have faith. They are demons and know God exists. God is invisible to us so we may have faith, and so be saved.

Is assurance of salvation possible?

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...yet not I, but the grace of God that is with me

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