Is assurance of salvation possible?

[Dorothy Mae]

The thing is, Jesus reveal=there are those who are certain of their salvation who in the end we know will not be. Also them who arent sure who are, in the end saved. So there is no practical reason for teaching it unless yiu are selling something

The preachers who assure people they are saved are popular and make a very nice living. The ones who tell people they must follow Jesus and obey him are less prosperous and less popular. People like being assured of Heaven no matter what evil they do. They do not like being told they need to obey God. They, the OSASers, do not even admit that they must love God. To a man, none of them will write what I easily and with pleasure write, "I must love God and man." (It is a great privilege and pleasure to do so but even when I don't feel like it, I am still required to do so.)

 

[Oldmantook]

The gift of faith and faith to believe and be saved are not the same thing. Believing the claims of Christ is not a gift. It is a choice we make.

Where did I write believing the claims of Christ is a gift?

 

[Invalidusername]

I wish OSAS was true but it isn't.

 

[Rescued One]

The gift of faith and faith to believe and be saved are not the same thing. Believing the claims of Christ is not a gift. It is a choice we make.

That isn't in my KJV Bible.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Isaiah 14
27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

 

[Rescued One]

Like a typical OSAS person you IGNORE my verses where Jesus says He WILL CUT YOU OUT AND THROW YOU IN THE FLAMES.

Nobody can steal His sheep but His sheep can leave the flock. And no He does not go wandering looking for them. He does not care about the sheep that leave the flock. They are rejects.

You have a very strange Bible. The sheep follow Him. Did you know He's the GOOD Shepherd?

Matthew 18
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


I'm in the USA and have to go at this very late hour.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

That isn't in my KJV Bible.

Romans 9
14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid. 15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion. 16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy. 17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth. 18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.

Where here does Paul write that God gives the gift of faith? It takes about mercy. I do not have God giving the gift of faith to some, lucky ones, so they can believe and refuses to give it to others, bummer, so they are damned and can do nothing about it. SOunds like unrightesouness with God.

Ezekiel 36
26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

Who are the recepients of this? Can we then say we know who these are by them always keeping the commandments (statues and judgments) which is, by the way, DOING something and not merely believing. WHere does it say there that God promises to give the gift of faith?

Isaiah 14
27 For the LORD of hosts hath purposed, and who shall disannul it? and his hand is stretched out, and who shall turn it back?

"The Lord is ....not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Humm. This is one purpose or desire of the Lord of hosts that is not coming to pass as some perished and some living will perish. What you are doing it thinking that GOd's will is done on the earth all the time. THis is not true. But God has particular purposes he wants done and this come to pass. This are, however, few. Salvation of particular people is not one of them.

Romans 8
28 And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose.

If one loves God and OBEYS Him, (called according to his, not their purpose) this is true. If one is saved and does not see that they need to love GOd or are waiting for God to surgically put in a heart that does making it easy and is not obeying him fulfilling the calling on their lives, then this is not a promise for them. There are conditions. There are conditions to be saved too. I know "God does it all" is more appealing as long as one believes one is in (very unappealing if one is out and never can be in though.)

 

[Dorothy Mae]

You have a very strange Bible. The sheep follow Him. Did you know He's the GOOD Shepherd?

Matthew 18
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.

And yet when the 70 left him, he did not move on foot or finger to go after them. Not one. He just let them go. There must be a different understanding of his part in this than what you think it is.

I suggest that it has something to do with whether one remains a sheep following or one decides to follow the pleasures of this world or the troubles of being a sheep are too much. You seem to think the sheep are locked up in a pen and cannot escape. JEsus does not seem to operate that way.

I'm in the USA and have to go at this very late hour.

Sleep well!

 

[Invalidusername]

You have a very strange Bible. The sheep follow Him. Did you know He's the GOOD Shepherd?

Matthew 18
12 How think ye? if a man have an hundred sheep, and one of them be gone astray, doth he not leave the ninety and nine, and goeth into the mountains, and seeketh that which is gone astray?13 And if so be that he find it, verily I say unto you, he rejoiceth more of that sheep, than of the ninety and nine which went not astray.

John 10
11 I am the good shepherd: the good shepherd giveth his life for the sheep. 12But he that is an hireling, and not the shepherd, whose own the sheep are not, seeth the wolf coming, and leaveth the sheep, and fleeth: and the wolf catcheth them, and scattereth the sheep. 13 The hireling fleeth, because he is an hireling, and careth not for the sheep. 14 I am the good shepherd, and know my sheep, and am known of mine. 15 As the Father knoweth me, even so know I the Father: and I lay down my life for the sheep. 16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice; and there shall be one fold, and one shepherd. 17 Therefore doth my Father love me, because I lay down my life, that I might take it again. 18 No man taketh it from me, but I lay it down of myself. I have power to lay it down, and I have power to take it again. This commandment have I received of my Father.


I'm in the USA and have to go at this very late hour.

Okay so listen the parable you quoted is NOT about bringing believers back into the fold. It's about bringing unregenerate people in the fold. If you leave AGAIN then there's no bounce back. Read Hebrews 6.

You don't understand and you will never understand unless you fall away like I did.

 

[Invalidusername]

Where here does Paul write that God gives the gift of faith? It takes about mercy. I do not have God giving the gift of faith to some, lucky ones, so they can believe and refuses to give it to others, bummer, so they are damned and can do nothing about it. SOunds like unrightesouness with God.
Who are the recepients of this? Can we then say we know who these are by them always keeping the commandments (statues and judgments) which is, by the way, DOING something and not merely believing. WHere does it say there that God promises to give the gift of faith?
"The Lord is ....not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." Humm. This is one purpose or desire of the Lord of hosts that is not coming to pass as some perished and some living will perish. What you are doing it thinking that GOd's will is done on the earth all the time. THis is not true. But God has particular purposes he wants done and this come to pass. This are, however, few. Salvation of particular people is not one of them.
If one loves God and OBEYS Him, (called according to his, not their purpose) this is true. If one is saved and does not see that they need to love GOd or are waiting for God to surgically put in a heart that does making it easy and is not obeying him fulfilling the calling on their lives, then this is not a promise for them. There are conditions. There are conditions to be saved too. I know "God does it all" is more appealing as long as one believes one is in (very unappealing if one is out and never can
be in though.)

One thing you don't seem to understand about free will is that God can cause ANY chain of events to happen. There is infinite possibilities of different things happening and each of them will alter the decisions we make. You aren't any more righteous and pious than anyone else just because you picked Jesus. You simply were a lucky consequence of events that occurred that led you to having faith and believing in Jesus. You were born in the correct environment, with the correct mindset, with the correct upbringing, and the correct infinite different things that will alter your decisions to pick God. You seem to have a self-righteous view of "I'm pretty awesome that I picked Jesus." No you are incredibly lucky.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Okay so listen the parable you quoted is NOT about bringing believers back into the fold. It's about bringing unregenerate people in the fold. If you leave AGAIN then there's no bounce back. Read Hebrews 6.

You don't understand and you will never understand unless you fall away like I did.

Pardon my being personal, but did you find it really hard to come back? I have heard it is harder to come back than to come in the first place. Just wondering about some confirmation on this report.

 

[Invalidusername]

Pardon my being personal, but did you find it really hard to come back? I have heard it is harder to come back than to come in the first place. Just wondering about some confirmation on this report.

It's impossible to come back. I have tried for a long time now.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

One thing you don't seem to understand about free will is that God can cause ANY chain of events to happen. There is infinite possibilities of different things happening and each of them will alter the decisions we make. You aren't any more righteous and pious than anyone else just because you picked Jesus. You simply were a lucky consequence of events that occurred that led you to having faith and believing in Jesus. You were born in the correct environment, with the correct mindset, with the correct upbringing, and the correct infinite different things that will alter your decisions to pick God. You seem to have a self-righteous view of "I'm pretty awesome that I picked Jesus." No you are incredibly lucky.

The bit in blue I never said nor have I even talked about my own salvation at all. So where are you getting this outside of the usual attack personally someone who you disagree with instead of focusing on the argument, so common in Americans. You are dead wrong and I haven't even mentioned on this site that I can recall my own salvation and my view of it. You should repent of this false accusation on my character.

Now there is no evidence that God is causing chains of events to happen so that everyone repents and becomes believers. Jesus did not talk like He is doing this nor anyone else who wrote the Bible. They seemed to believe that the truth is preached and people believe it or they do not. None of them seemed to blame God for not arranging the events for those who did not.

I was raised with siblings who did not become believers so that proves that your presupposition is wrong. I know of families with many children, 6 in fact, for whom only one is a believer and they were all raised in the same environment etc. There are hundreds of such examples. There is no correlation between any of these factors and becoming a believer.

Personally I think it is an insult to God to say then when a person believes and starts to follow Jesus, they are incredibly lucky. I mean is that all it is for you, lucky enough to be going to Heaven????

 

[Dorothy Mae]

It's impossible to come back. I have tried for a long time now.

I am not convinced it is impossible. It is likely that what one had, does not return for a long time. But if you confess and repent AND make restitution to those you wronged, I believe grace will be granted. THe road is hard though. I would advise you ask God to show you everyone you wronged and what you can do to make it right. God gives grace to those who humble themselves.

 

[Invalidusername]

I am not convinced it is impossible. It is likely that what one had, does not return for a long time. But if you confess and repent AND make restitution to those you wronged, I believe grace will be granted. THe road is hard though. I would advise you ask God to show you everyone you wronged and what you can do to make it right. God gives grace to those who humble themselves.

The problem is once you've been cut from the vine it's over. You have "withered and died". What does that mean? When you believe you are reborn and given a new nature. I've experienced this. When you slide back into sin and forget about God, you no longer bear fruit and your new nature dies. You "wither and die". Once that happens it's too late. There's no "re-reborn" again. Jesus Christ would have to come a 2nd time and die for me again for that to happen(Hebrews 6).

The bit in blue I never said nor have I even talked about my own salvation at all. So where are you getting this outside of the usual attack personally someone who you disagree with instead of focusing on the argument, so common in Americans. You are dead wrong and I haven't even mentioned on this site that I can recall my own salvation and my view of it. You should repent of this false accusation on my character.

Now there is no evidence that God is causing chains of events to happen so that everyone repents and becomes believers. Jesus did not talk like He is doing this nor anyone else who wrote the Bible. They seemed to believe that the truth is preached and people believe it or they do not. None of them seemed to blame God for not arranging the events for those who did not.

I was raised with siblings who did not become believers so that proves that your presupposition is wrong. I know of families with many children, 6 in fact, for whom only one is a believer and they were all raised in the same environment etc. There are hundreds of such examples. There is no correlation between any of these factors and becoming a believer.

Personally I think it is an insult to God to say then when a person believes and starts to follow Jesus, they are incredibly lucky. I mean is that all it is for you, lucky enough to be going to Heaven????

When I was saved and regenerated, I knew that I was very fortunate. A lot of people are blind and unable to believe the truth and God had led me down certain steps to enable me to accept the truth. Some people are never blessed with that. Jesus could've prevented Judas from falling away but He did not. However He did prevent Peter from falling away and even said, "I have prayed for you." Jesus never prayed for Judas but rather called him "Doomed to destruction".

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The problem is once you've been cut from the vine it's over. You have "withered and died". What does that mean? When you believe you are reborn and given a new nature. I've experienced this. When you slide back into sin and forget about God, you no longer bear fruit and your new nature dies. You "wither and die". Once that happens it's too late. There's no "re-reborn" again. Jesus Christ would have to come a 2nd time and die for me again for that to happen(Hebrews 6).

What do you have to lose by asking/trying?

When I was saved and regenerated, I knew that I was very fortunate. A lot of people are blind and unable to believe the truth and God had led me down certain steps to enable me to accept the truth.

Probably your first mistake, thinking you were fortunate which puts the responsibility solely upon God. This is false theology. We have a vital part to play. We cannot save ourselves but without the required conditions on our part, it does not happen.

Some people are never blessed with that.

They don't want to be so blessed.

Jesus could've prevented Judas from falling away but He did not.

He never promises to prevent anyone from throwing away the gift given to them. The mistake is thinking he does this.

However He did prevent Peter from falling away and even said, "I have prayed for you."

Jesus told Peter he would fall away and Peter fell away. Jesus did not prevent it but predicted it and it happened as said.

Jesus never prayed for Judas but rather called him "Doomed to destruction".

You do not know that. Jesus prayed when he chose the 12. The Bible does not record Jesus saying he prayed for John. Does that mean he did not. What about James? Never says that Jesus prayed for any of them. Does that mean he did not? Does not say that Jesus prayed Peter would return. IT says Satan wanted to attack Peter and Jesus prayed against that. Where is "Jesus prayed Peter would not fall away?" Jesus said to Peter than when he came back (very possible) that he should strengthen his brethren.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Where did I write believing the claims of Christ is a gift?

So you do not believe the faith to believe is a gift? Is that right?

 

[Invalidusername]

What do you have to lose by asking/trying?

I've asked every single day for the last 8 months and nothing has happened. I even fasted for days but my heart is still hard as a stone. I am incapable of remorse for my sins and incapable of being repulsed by sin anymore. It's pretty clear what my fate is:

Hebrews 12:15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears.

I've been seeking for repentance and it's not being found. I willfully sinned with the full knowledge of the truth so thus there no longer remains any sacrifice for my sins but a fearful expectation of the judgement to come that I cannot ever escape. I allowed bitterness and hurt to destroy the only good thing that ever happened to me.

And I disagree with your conclusion. Jesus clearly prayed for Peter to not fall away. Peter did not fall away. Peter STUMBLED. He made a mistake but he never abandoned Jesus in his heart. He only was afraid and stumbled. He never sold out Christ like Judas did.

 

[Oldmantook]

So you do not believe the faith to believe is a gift? Is that right?

I'm not even sure of your comment, much less your question. Elaboration required as I'm not sure how it applies to my initial comment which you replied to.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I'm not even sure of your comment, much less your question. Elaboration required as I'm not sure how it applies to my initial comment which you replied to.

Is faith to believe in Christ for salvation a gift from God?

 

[HatGuy]

The reality remains is that free will is an illusion. God can cause a chain of events to save anyone. ANYONE could see and accept the truth but not everyone will. Once you really understand this, you really understand how little control you have.

Been there, done that.

The fact is that your argument is very logical (free will an illusion) and so it seems like it must be right.

But it is neither Biblical not experientially true.

The will may be bound to sin, but this does not mean there is no free will. These are two different concepts. Plus once you come to faith the will is freed.