Is assurance of salvation possible?

[Invalidusername]

Assurance of what? (Btw, I love the sculpture. Now there's a self-made man!)

Assurance of salvation? I agree. I am not a reliable judge of that. I have a never ending record of fooling myself. But I do have assurance that the Judge of all the Earth will do what is right. --not that I deserve salvation, but that Christ has given it to whomever he will, and that is good.

Whether that is me or not isn't really the point anymore, but that God is to be praised for his judgements.

Yeah unfortunately I am a bit bitter about this because I fell away after becoming a Christian and I feel like all I am capable of is dead faith. I don't think there's anything left for me.

I feel like no matter if I put faith in Christ it won't matter because God isn't enabling me to have true faith.

 

[Invalidusername]

This verse about demons is in the context of demons believing "God is one". Demons cannot have faith. They are demons and know God exists. God is invisible to us so we may have faith, and so be saved.

We can only have faith if God grants it.

 

[HatGuy]

Yeah unfortunately I am a bit bitter about this because I fell away after becoming a Christian and I feel like all I am capable of is dead faith. I don't think there's anything left for me.

I feel like no matter if I put faith in Christ it won't matter because God isn't enabling me to have true faith.

Dude, I'm just saying: your theology might be getting in the way, stealing the faith you actually have.

 

[HatGuy]

We can only have faith if God grants it.

God doesn't "grant" faith. He "gives" faith, and there is a difference.

Plus there is truth in saying that all humans are capable of having faith in a certain sense: faith in a political leader, their parents, etc.

I agree that only the Holy Spirit gives faith but because I'm not a Calvinist I don't have to believe that salvation (and assurance) is dependent on some hidden will of God I could never know. Rather, salvation (and assurance) is based on faith. And since Jesus says it need only be a mustard seed, then even the smallest amount of faith is good enough.

 

[Rescued One]

Of course the Holy Spirit never gives dead faith but you can become dead in your faith through unbelief and/or disobedience and therein lies the difference.

With genuine faith a person has passed from death to life. He has been born again and quickened. The old man is dead; the new is come.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Read aiki's post. You can't give yourself the new birth. God gives it and no one (not even you) can take it away.

 

[Invalidusername]

With genuine faith a person has passed from death to life. He has been born again and quickened. The old man is dead; the new is come.

Romans 6:6
Knowing this, that our old man is crucified with him, that the body of sin might be destroyed, that henceforth we should not serve sin.

Philippians 1:6
Being confident of this very thing, that he which hath begun a good work in you will perform it until the day of Jesus Christ:

Read aiki's post. You can't give yourself the new birth. God gives it and no one (not even you) can take it away.

John 15

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes" so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


Stop deceiving people with your bogus OSAS lie.

 

[Rescued One]

Of course the Holy Spirit never gives dead faith but you can become dead in your faith through unbelief and/or disobedience and therein lies the difference.

Genuine faith doesn't die.

John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

Obedience didn't save you!

 

[Invalidusername]

God doesn't "grant" faith. He "gives" faith, and there is a difference.

Plus there is truth in saying that all humans are capable of having faith in a certain sense: faith in a political leader, their parents, etc.

I agree that only the Holy Spirit gives faith but because I'm not a Calvinist I don't have to believe that salvation (and assurance) is dependent on some hidden will of God I could never know. Rather, salvation (and assurance) is based on faith. And since Jesus says it need only be a mustard seed, then even the smallest amount of faith is good enough.

The reality remains is that free will is an illusion. God can cause a chain of events to save anyone. ANYONE could see and accept the truth but not everyone will. Once you really understand this, you really understand how little control you have.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

The thrust of the chapter is Paul concerned about loss of reward, not salvation.

What rewards does Paul mention that he is afraid of losing?

When a person speaks of being disqualified, it means they lose everything. If one is disqualified for a matter, one has lost it all.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Genuine faith doesn't die.

Jesus said that at a time, many will fall away from the faith. He makes no qualifications as to genuine or disgenuine faith. What is missing in your position is that faith and love and all of that are genuine at a point in TIME. IT is not once a person has love or faith or hope, it is in cement in them. One can have "genuine" faith at a point in time and then lose that genuine faith. Because it was once genuine does not follow that it will always be genuine. That is why Jesus told us to take care. Time and experience can change or even destroy geuine faith and genuine love and genuine hope.

John 10
4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers. 6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

As long as his sheep want to remain his own and want to keep following. If they decide it is too hard or there are more enjoyable pastures under other shepherds, then they leave being his sheep at that point in time. IT happens.

Obedience didn't save you!

No one says it does.

 

[Rescued One]

John 15

1 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. 2 He cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit, while every branch that does bear fruit he prunes" so that it will be even more fruitful. 3 You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, as I also remain in you. No branch can bear fruit by itself; it must remain in the vine. Neither can you bear fruit unless you remain in me.

5 “I am the vine; you are the branches. If you remain in me and I in you, you will bear much fruit; apart from me you can do nothing. 6 If you do not remain in me, you are like a branch that is thrown away and withers; such branches are picked up, thrown into the fire and burned. 7 If you remain in me and my words remain in you, ask whatever you wish, and it will be done for you. 8 This is to my Father’s glory, that you bear much fruit, showing yourselves to be my disciples.


Stop deceiving people with your bogus OSAS lie.

Are you saying that Bible verses are wrong? Do people save themselves or do they just help Christ do it? Is the Good Shepherd careless with His sheep?

Apart from the Shepherd we can do nothing; that is true.

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Will Jesus let a thief steal His sheep?

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Give us the verse.

Do you know the parable of the sheep and the goats? What made a difference between them? Where is the verse that says that the sheep had genuine faith and the goats did not? Where is faith mentioned in that verse?

Jesus said, "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love." It does not say, if you are true followers of mine you will, of course, keep my commandments. He starts with us deciding to keep his commandments. If we do so, we will remain in his love. Again notice there is no "once in his love always in his love" idea because time and choices happen to us all until we die. We can choose at any time not to keep his commands. It means we do not REMAIN in his love. TIme is the element you have to ignore in your position.

 

[Rescued One]

Jesus said that at a time, many will fall away from the faith. He makes no qualifications as to genuine or disgenuine faith. What is missing in your position is that faith and love and all of that are genuine at a point in TIME. IT is not once a person has love or faith or hope, it is in cement in them. One can have "genuine" faith at a point in time and then lose that genuine faith. Because it was once genuine does not follow that it will always be genuine. That is why Jesus told us to take care. Time and experience can change or even destroy geuine faith and genuine love and genuine hope.
As long as his sheep want to remain his own and want to keep following. If they decide it is too hard or there are more enjoyable pastures under other shepherds, then they leave being his sheep at that point in time. IT happens.
No one says it does.

Oldmantook: Is assurance of salvation possible?

 

[Invalidusername]

Are you saying that Bible verses are wrong? Do people save themselves or do they just help Christ do it? Is the Good Shepherd careless with His sheep?

Apart from the Shepherd we can do nothing; that is true.

John 10
1 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber. 2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep. 3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out. 4And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice. 5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

Will Jesus let a thief steal His sheep?

Like a typical OSAS person you IGNORE my verses where Jesus says He WILL CUT YOU OUT AND THROW YOU IN THE FLAMES.

Nobody can steal His sheep but His sheep can leave the flock. And no He does not go wandering looking for them. He does not care about the sheep that leave the flock. They are rejects.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Of course the Holy Spirit never gives dead faith but you can become dead in your faith through unbelief and/or disobedience and therein lies the difference.

The gift of faith and faith to believe and be saved are not the same thing. Believing the claims of Christ is not a gift. It is a choice we make.

 

[Rescued One]

Do you know the parable of the sheep and the goats? What made a difference between them? Where is the verse that says that the sheep had genuine faith and the goats did not? Where is faith mentioned in that verse?

Jesus said, "If you keep my commands, you will remain in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commands and remain in his love." It does not say, if you are true followers of mine you will, of course, keep my commandments. He starts with us deciding to keep his commandments. If we do so, we will remain in his love. Again notice there is no "once in his love always in his love" idea because time and choices happen to us all until we die. We can choose at any time not to keep his commands. It means we do not REMAIN in his love. TIme is the element you have to ignore in your position.

Jesus takes care of His sheep and His sheep know that He will.

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

 

[Eloy Craft]

The thing is, Jesus reveal=there are those who are certain of their salvation who in the end we know will not be. Also them who arent sure who are, in the end saved. So there is no practical reason for teaching it unless yiu are selling something

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Oldmantook: Is assurance of salvation possible?

I have no respect for those who cannot themselves present the reason why they believe as they do. Oldmantook is not part of our discussion so it seems pointless to read what other people wrote. IF you cannot put what you believ and why into words, then it makes no sense to try to have a discussion with you. IF you just borrow the thoughts of others and cannot present a reason for the hope that is within you yourself, then we cannot discuss the matter as you only borrow other people's thoughts. Or did you want me to evaluation the argument someone else presented? Otherwise I really do not see why I should read what someone else thinks instead of the person I am talking to.

 

[Invalidusername]

Jesus takes care of His sheep and His sheep know that He will.

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Romans 11

22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Jesus takes care of His sheep and His sheep know that He will.

The 70 left him after he gave a teaching they did not like. He did not go after those sheep. Judas left him to do a terrible thing and JEsus did not take care of him either. In fact, where is the verse that says that Jesus takes care of his sheep so his sheep do not need to obey him?

Romans 9:16
It does not, therefore, depend on human desire or effort, but on God's mercy.

Same Paul wrote, "For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad." You need to move beyond merely be saved and going to Heaven.