Maybe, "three nights and three days" ?

AFrazier said:

Here we go again. Should I even bother typing this, since you clearly don't read my posts?

"for that sabbath day was an high day" is how the passage reads. It is proof of itself that it was not a high sabbath, but a high day. That's what it actually says.

And first fruits, the waving of the sheaf, and counting the omer began on the 16th in the first century (Lev. 23:15-16; Deut. 16:9-15; Tal. Rosh Hash. 6b; Joseph AJ 3.252; Philo Spec. 2.162, 2.176).

Feel free to look up the resource material for yourself.

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when in brackets.. means it originally isn't there..Bible editors have decided that it is most likely not in the original text, but added by a copyist sometime later, and so they have indicated that by putting brackets around it.
"for that sabbath day was an high day"..

AFrazier said:

The disciples came to Jesus on the first day of unleavened bread, when the passover was killed, and asked where he wanted them to prepare so he could eat the passover. He gave them instructions, which they followed. And later that evening, when the hour came, he arrived with the others and the last supper commenced.

I sincerely appreciate your desire to cram everything into a perfect Nisan 14th box, but it just doesn't match the scripture. Do you understand that? According to blatant and conspicuous scripture, the last supper took place on the evening of the 14th, going into the night of the 15th at sunset. He was crucified the next day on the morning of the 15th.

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Was wondering what you thought regarding the quartodecimans in relation to your theory? These very early Eastern Christians were taught by John himself.

AbbaLove said:

Apparently they think Jewish men had to stay in Jerusalem proper each and every day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread. The fact is that men could lodge in nearby villages or camp out in surrounding fields during the 7-8 day Feast of Unleavened Bread. There wasn't enough room in Jerusalem to house all the men that had travelled to Jerusalem. Whether they believe Yeshua arose before or after sunrise there is no reason to prevent Yeshua from appearing that same afternoon on the Road to Emmaus. Almost four days of the Feast of Unleavened Bread had already elapsed with it beginning on the 5th Jewish Day (15th of Abib/Nisan).​

​

As far as "Preparation Day" a commonly held belief was/is that it was in "preparation" for the High Holy (Sabbath) Feast of Unleavened Bread on the 15th of Abib/Nisan. It's generally believed (depending on Jewish sect) it's a reference for when the leaven had to be removed from homes. Some believe at the very latest by noon on the 14th of Abib /Nisan. Others believe that all leaven had to be removed before sunset and the beginning of the 14th of Abib/Nisan.​

​

Yeshua means what He says and says what He means ... "so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth" (Matthew 12:40)... Therefore a Friday Crucifixion can't be justified according to Yeshua's own Words ... "after three days he shall rise again." (Mark 9:31)

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That post is just silly! It actually shows you do not understand Jewish culture or idioms of the time. The eyewitness testimony (you do know how many men it takes for that in Judaism don't you???) proves without a doubt the impossibility of a Wednesday crucifixion. Also what does your little pontification regarding the appearance on the road to Emmaus have anything to do with the question at hand? It is Scriptural FACT that it was on the first day of the week (Sunday) when He rose and appeared to them. They said it was the 3RD day since the events of the 14th occurred. So you think Yeshua was lying when He said "Destroy this temple and I will rebuild it "IN 3 DAYS." Also RAISED ON THE 3RD DAY comes to mind. Are these all wrong because they don't agree with YOUR timeline? You can't keep claiming all MJs agree with the timeline you favor, that just is not so.

gadar perets said:

Since you believe he died on Friday, Abib 15, please explain the following passage;

Mar 14:1 Now the Passover and Unleavened Bread were two days away; and the chief priests and the scribes were seeking how to seize Him by stealth and kill Him;
Mar 14:2 for they were saying, "Not during the festival, otherwise there might be a riot of the people."
​

You have him being killed on the very first day of the festival which was an annual Sabbath.

Also, please explain John 18:28;

Then they led Yeshua from Caiaphas into the Praetorium, and it was early; and they themselves did not enter into the Praetorium so that they would not be defiled, but might eat the Passover. ​

If this took place on the morning of Abib 15 according to your timeline, then the Jews would have already eaten the Passover the prior evening when Abib 15 first began. At that time in history, the Jews certainly did not eat the Passover on the night of Abib 16.

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Good and fair questions.

First, let me say that neither of these passages makes Mark 14:12 or Luke 22:7 go away, so it's important that you recognize that I'm not clinging to a "belief" of some sort. I'm standing on hard scripture. Mark and Luke, and Matthew to a slightly lesser degree, all say that the disciples came to Jesus on the afternoon of the 14th day of Nisan, inquiring where he wanted them to prepare the passover. Thus, my answer to the two scriptures you've asked about are going to be given with Matthew, Mark, and Luke in mind.

In Mark 14:1-2 (Matthew 26:4-5 and Luke 22:2 are parallels), the goal of the chief priests and scribes wasn't necessarily to take him on a non-feast day or non-festival day, per se. Their goal was to take him secretly and to avoid the public festival because they feared the mob; i.e. it wasn't the day or date that concerned them, but taking him from amidst the multitude. The Romans wouldn't have been merciful if a "tumult" arose during the festival. The Romans, in fact, went out of their way to keep the peace, especially during that time of the year, by bringing in extra troops and whatnot. As you'll note, Pontius Pilate was in Jerusalem during the passover, even though his residence was in Caesarea. The Romans also had a tradition of releasing a prisoner at the passover, which was done to ensure that the Jews were placated and didn't stir up trouble.

John 18:28 is simply the Chagigah. The festive offering of the 15th was also called the passover. I can provide resource material if you want it.

And yes, Jesus was killed on the holy convocation. That's why the Jews brought him to Pilate. There are numerous examples in the New Testament of the Jews stoning people to death; most notably Stephen in Acts 7:54-60. While it is a commonly held belief that the Jews couldn't prosecute capital cases, the proof, as they say, is in the pudding. They tried to stone Jesus no fewer than three times.
Jewish law at that time allowed a capital trial on the eve of the passover (the 14th). But a capital case couldn't be concluded at night. The verdict and sentence had to be made in the light of the day. And a condemned prisoner of a capital case had to be executed within a day.
So he was tried on the eve of the passover. The verdict of his guilt was pronounced in the morning, along with a sentence of death. And then they brought him to Pontius Pilate, because Jewish law prohibited them from putting him to death themselves on the holy convocation, and he needed to be immediately executed.
That's one of the key points of Jesus' own prophecy, that he would be delivered into the hands of the gentiles and crucified. Blasphemers were stoned. But when the blasphemer needs to be executed on a sabbath, you take him to the heathen to do your dirty work. (John 18:32)
Pilate even told them to see to it themselves, and to see to crucifying him themselves (John 19:6). But though he gave them the okay to do it, they said they couldn't. (John 18:31) It was not lawful for them to put someone to death. Jewish law prohibited it on the holy convocation.

visionary said:

when in brackets.. means it originally isn't there..Bible editors have decided that it is most likely not in the original text, but added by a copyist sometime later, and so they have indicated that by putting brackets around it.
"for that sabbath day was an high day"..

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Ummmmm ... bro, those are quotations, not brackets, and I put them there because I'm quoting a portion of a passage. Additionally, I'm using a KJV, and they use italics to indicate words that have been added for the sake of readability. The NASB also uses italics. The NRSV doesn't indicate added words.

BUT, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that "for that sabbath day was an high day" is not part of the original text? What are you saying? What is your argument. I'm lost.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Was wondering what you thought regarding the quartodecimans in relation to your theory? These very early Eastern Christians were taught by John himself.

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From what I've been able to see in terms of definitive statements by church presbyters, the quartodecimans observed the paschal season according to the 14th day of the moon, and fasted on the 14th, as Jesus had said to the apostles, "watch and pray." But nothing in the early material I've read directly states that they observed the 14th as the day of his crucifixion, only that they began their observation of the paschal season on the 14th. That was part of the big uproar in the late second century. The western churches wanted to unify by celebrating the paschal season at the same time, but while some had changed to the Friday through Sunday observation, the eastern church wouldn't change from their observation in parallel to the actual passover season itself.

Further, according to Irenaeus, later presbyters in contact with early church fathers like Polycarp, rejected traditions as passed down by such, despite Polycarp's direct association with John. As Eusebius noted, when Polycarp went to Rome and met with Anicetus, Anicetus tried to convince Polycarp not to observe the paschal season in the way the earliest presbyters had taught him, whilst Polycarp tried to convince Anicetus to observe the paschal season as the practice had been handed down to him. Neither were successful in convincing the other.

So as early as the early second century, the practices handed down by the apostles were falling into disuse in direct defiance of firsthand knowledge. Add another eighty years, and they would have been entirely warped.

And do keep in mind that many minds then, just as today, would have been just as corrupted by ignorance. People who don't understand, but think they understand, make rules, traditions, etc., and enforce them among the populace. Given enough time, the decisions of the man becomes the gospel truth inadvertently, as evidenced by the Didascalia, Epiphanius of Salamis, Victorinus, and others.

Most importantly, no tradition trumps scripture in my opinion.

AFrazier said:

Ummmmm ... bro, those are quotations, not brackets, and I put them there because I'm quoting a portion of a passage. Additionally, I'm using a KJV, and they use italics to indicate words that have been added for the sake of readability. The NASB also uses italics. The NRSV doesn't indicate added words.

BUT, I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at. Are you suggesting that "for that sabbath day was an high day" is not part of the original text? What are you saying? What is your argument. I'm lost.

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KJV
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an highday,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Same goes for other translations John 19:31 - Bible Gateway

Brackets allow the insertion of editorial material inside quotations. They can be used for the following purposes:
Clarification
Translation
Indicating a change in capitalization
Indicating errors
Emphasis
Censoring objectionable content
Parenthetical within parenthetical

visionary said:

KJV
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an highday,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Same goes for other translations John 19:31 - Bible Gateway

Brackets allow the insertion of editorial material inside quotations. They can be used for the following purposes:
Clarification
Translation
Indicating a change in capitalization
Indicating errors
Emphasis
Censoring objectionable content
Parenthetical within parenthetical

Click to expand...

I don't see parenthesis in the original Greek, but we can clearly see that it was the preparation (paraskeue or Friday) for the weekly Sabbath (sabbato or Saturday).

visionary said:

KJV
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an highday,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Same goes for other translations John 19:31 - Bible Gateway

Brackets allow the insertion of editorial material inside quotations. They can be used for the following purposes:
Clarification
Translation
Indicating a change in capitalization
Indicating errors
Emphasis
Censoring objectionable content
Parenthetical within parenthetical

Click to expand...

Yeah, the parentheses are an English addition. They aren't there in the Greek.

AFrazier said:

First, let me say that neither of these passages makes Mark 14:12 or Luke 22:7 go away, so it's important that you recognize that I'm not clinging to a "belief" of some sort.

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We are in agreement that those verses refer to Abib 14, so I don't want them to go away either.

I'm standing on hard scripture. Mark and Luke, and Matthew to a slightly lesser degree, all say that the disciples came to Jesus on the afternoon of the 14th day of Nisan, inquiring where he wanted them to prepare the passover.

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I believe it was the beginning of Abib 14. Why would Yeshua wait until the afternoon of the 14th to tell them to prepare the passover? They should have been in line with thousands of other Jews at the temple with their lambs to be killed. Then they had to cook them for hours before they could eat them. They had no time to go looking for a room at the last minute.

John 18:28 is simply the Chagigah. The festive offering of the 15th was also called the passover. I can provide resource material if you want it.

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Yes, please provide that info. I have read sources that say the Chagigah could be eaten on the 14th or 15th. If the phrase, "eat the passover" can mean "eat the Chagigah", then why can't "eat the passover" in Mark 14:12 mean, "eat the Chagigah"?

AbbaLove said:

It's Not Difficult To Disprove A "Good Friday" Crucifixion​

Church advocates of a Crucifixion on the 6th Jewish Day mistakenly rationalize the "three [12 hr] days and three [12 hr] nights" (Matthew 12:40) They include 3-4 hrs of afternoon daylight on the 6th Jewish Day (friday) as the first day, then 12 hrs daylight on the 7th Jewish Day (saturday) as the second day, and a few minutes of sunrise daylight on the 1st Jewish Day (sunday) as the third day. However, there is no way "Good Friday" advocates can account for "three nights" (full or partial) when only two 12 hr nights had elapsed. One nighttime on the 7th Jewish Day (friday night), and a second nighttime on the 1st Jewish Day (saturday night), with NO additional partial nighttimes. Not even a few minutes of additional nighttime can be included that they know don't exist in order to satisfy "three nights" of Matthew 12:40.

Now let's take a closer look at Luke 24:21 "... And what is more, it is the third day since all this took place." Beginning with the 15th of Abib/Nisan Jewish Day High Sabbath (thursday) being the first complete Jewish 24 hr Day, after Yeshua's 14th of Abib/Nisan Crucifixion, having 12 hrs of daylight (thursday), then the 16th Jewish Day being the second complete Jewish 24 hr Day having 12 hrs of daylight (friday), then the 17th Jewish 24 hr Day being the third complete Jewish 24hr Day having 12 hrs of daylight (saturday). However, the afternoon of the 12 hr day they were walking on the road to Emmaus (roman sunday) was the same 1st Jewish Day of Week (roman saturday night) that Yeshua arose from the tomb before sunrise. Therefore we can see why a 14th of Abib/Nisan Crucifixion timeline (on wednesday or thursday) is more justified than the 14th of Abib/Nisan ("Good Friday") timeline.

Alex Tennet's 14th of Abib/Nisan (thursday) Crucifixion timeline of Luke 24:21 is as follows: Beginning with 3-4 hrs of daylight on the 14th counted as the first day, then the 15th of Abib/Nisan Jewish High Sabbth (friday) being the first complete Jewish 24 hr Day, having 12 hrs of nightime and 12 hrs of daylight, then the 16th of Abib/Nisan Jewish Day (saturday) being the second complete Jewish 24 hr Day having 12 hours of nighttime and 12 hrs of daylight, then the 17th Jewish Day (sunday) being the third Jewish 24 hr Day having, say 10-11 hours of nighttime when Yeshua arose from the tomb before sunrise. It was later that same Jewish 1st Day (afternoon) when Yeshua appeared to two of His followers on the road to Emmaus. It was late on this third day (17th of Abib/Nisan) that Yeshua ate bread with two of His followers (Luke 24:30) and possibly into the start of next day (after sunset) before these two followers of Yeshua returned to Jerusalem.

Some MJs believe Yeshua's Crucifixion was more likely the afternoon of the 5th Jewish Day (thursday) on the 14th of Abib/Nisan than wednesday afternoon on the 14th of Abib/Nisan. Yeshua's Resurrection after "three days and three nights" includes 3-4 hrs of the remaining daylight on the 14th of Abib/Nisan. Advocates of this 5th day (thursday) Crucifixion can rightly say "three days" just as "Good Friday" advocates claim calculate when including the 3-4 hrs of daylight on the afternoon of the 14th of Abib/Nisan as the first day of their three day timeline.

However, "Good Friday" advocates are at a loss to even attempt to justify "three nights" with their 6th Jewish Day ("Good Friday") Crucifixion scenario.

The RCC/EOC have confused much of Christendom in their attempt to perpetuate a "Good Friday" church doctrine. There is no way advocates of a "Good Friday" Crucifixion can rightly account for "three days" in the tomb by assuming Yeshua arose after sunrise on sunday. And no way can they account for "three nights" in the tomb as recorded in Matthew 12:40.

Yeshua in tomb, beginning of Jewish 7th Day Sabbath (friday night)
Yeshua arose 10-11 hours into the Jewish 1st Day (saturday night)
Yeshua walked with two disciples Jewish 1st Day (sunday afternoon)

Fallacy Of A 6th Day "Good Friday" Crucifixion (Only Two Nights)
Matthew 12:40
​

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They counted inclusively. Friday, Saturday, Sunday. Three days. You can choose to believe differently, but there's no way around the fact that he died on the day of the preparation, and he rose on the first day of the week. That's not RCC or EOC. That's scripture. And any conclusion that contradicts scripture should be recognized as suspect.

As I said, I wasn't impressed with Tennent. You're just regurgitating his nonsense, which has been long since disproven by academics of reputation, and on this thread, as well as other threads. If he was even remotely educated in this stuff, he would have known that Jews, Romans, and everyone else in the ancient world counted inclusively.

You know why they counted inclusively? Because the number 0 didn't exist yet. It wasn't invented until the seventh century. That's why Greek, Hebrew, and Latin all have numbering systems that start with 1 (α, א, I). It's not an accident.

AFrazier said:

Ummmmm ... bro, those are quotations, not brackets, ...

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visionary is a "sis"

gadar perets said:

We are in agreement that those verses refer to Abib 14, so I don't want them to go away either.


I believe it was the beginning of Abib 14. Why would Yeshua wait until the afternoon of the 14th to tell them to prepare the passover? They should have been in line with thousands of other Jews at the temple with their lambs to be killed. Then they had to cook them for hours before they could eat them. They had no time to go looking for a room at the last minute.


Yes, please provide that info. I have read sources that say the Chagigah could be eaten on the 14th or 15th. If the phrase, "eat the passover" can mean "eat the Chagigah", then why can't "eat the passover" in Mark 14:12 mean, "eat the Chagigah"?

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I'll get you those citations. But to answer the last question real quick, they could have eaten the chagigah, if one were inclined to interpret it so, but that would push the timeline even farther forward if we're talking about the festive offering of the 15th, or give us no change at all if it's the 14th.

visionary said:

KJV
John 19:31
The Jews therefore, because it was the preparation, that the bodies should not remain upon the cross on the sabbath day, (for that sabbath day was an highday,) besought Pilate that their legs might be broken, and that they might be taken away.

Same goes for other translations John 19:31 - Bible Gateway

Brackets allow the insertion of editorial material inside quotations. They can be used for the following purposes:
Clarification
Translation
Indicating a change in capitalization
Indicating errors
Emphasis
Censoring objectionable content
Parenthetical within parenthetical

Click to expand...

Those are parenthesis around "for that sabbath day was an highday", not brackets. The phrase belongs in the verse.

gadar perets said:

visionary is a "sis"

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Gotcha lol

AFrazier said:

I'll get you those citations. But to answer the last question real quick, they could have eaten the chagigah, if one were inclined to interpret it so, but that would push the timeline even farther forward if we're talking about the festive offering of the 15th, or give us no change at all if it's the 14th.

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Here is the timeline as I understand it;

Friday = Abib 14 = prep day for Passover and for the weekly Sabbath = day Yeshua was killed
Sabbath = Abib 15 = in the tomb = annual sabbath
First day of the week = Abib 16 = wave sheaf day = resurrection

gadar perets said:

Here is the timeline as I understand it;

Friday = Abib 14 = prep day for Passover and for the weekly Sabbath = day Yeshua was killed
Sabbath = Abib 15 = in the tomb = annual sabbath
First day of the week = Abib 16 = wave sheaf day = resurrection

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Let me ask you a question. When did he ride into Jerusalem? Lamb selection day, right?

@Yeshua HaDerekh, can I have your input on this question also?

AFrazier said:

Let me ask you a question. When did he ride into Jerusalem? Lamb selection day, right?

@Yeshua HaDerekh, can I have your input on this question also?

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Monday, Abib 10