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Meester-Chung

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It has already been clearly and completely proved that the doctrine of a rapture before the great tribulation has been taught throughout the entire history of the church.


provide historical facts evidence that the pre-trib rapture theology was thaught throughout church history?

and explain why none of the reformers from Martin Luther, William Tyndal, John Knox, John Calvin and others never mentioned a pre-trib rapture?
 
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Joh 10:22 Now it was the Feast of Dedication in Jerusalem, and it was winter.



Mat 24:15 "Therefore when you see the 'ABOMINATION OF DESOLATION,' spoken of by Daniel the prophet, standing in the holy place" (whoever reads, let him understand),
Mat 24:16 "then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.


Luk 21:20 "But when you see Jerusalem surrounded by armies, then know that its desolation is near.
Luk 21:21 Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains, let those who are in the midst of her depart, and let not those who are in the country enter her.

...............................................................


From "Antiquities of the Jews" by Josephus, Book 12, chapter 7

"6. When therefore the generals of Antiochus's armies had been beaten so often, Judas assembled the people together, and told them, that after these many victories which God had given them, they ought to go up to Jerusalem, and purify the temple, and offer the appointed sacrifices. But as soon as he, with the whole multitude, was come to Jerusalem, and found the temple deserted, and its gates burnt down, and plants growing in the temple of their own accord, on account of its desertion, he and those that were with him began to lament, and were quite confounded at the sight of the temple; so he chose out some of his soldiers, and gave them order to fight against those guards that were in the citadel, until he should have purified the temple. When therefore he had carefully purged it, and had brought in new vessels, the candlestick, the table [of shew-bread], and the altar [of incense], which were made of gold, he hung up the veils at the gates, and added doors to them. He also took down the altar [of burnt-offering], and built a new one of stones that he gathered together, and not of such as were hewn with iron tools. So on the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, which the Macedonians call Apeliens, they lighted the lamps that were on the candlestick, and offered incense upon the altar [of incense], and laid the loaves upon the table [of shew-bread], and offered burnt-offerings upon the new altar [of burnt-offering]. Now it so fell out, that these things were done on the very same day on which their Divine worship had fallen off, and was reduced to a profane and common use, after three years' time; for so it was, that the temple was made desolate by Antiochus, and so continued for three years. This desolation happened to the temple in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of the month Apeliens, and on the hundred fifty and third olympiad: but it was dedicated anew, on the same day, the twenty-fifth of the month Apeliens, on the hundred and forty-eighth year, and on the hundred and fifty-fourth olympiad. And this desolation came to pass according to the prophecy of Daniel, which was given four hundred and eight years before; for he declared that the Macedonians would dissolve that worship [for some time].

7. Now Judas celebrated the festival of the restoration of the sacrifices of the temple for eight days, and omitted no sort of pleasures thereon; but he feasted them upon very rich and splendid sacrifices; and he honored God, and delighted them by hymns and psalms. Nay, they were so very glad at the revival of their customs, when, after a long time of intermission, they unexpectedly had regained the freedom of their worship, that they made it a law for their posterity, that they should keep a festival, on account of the restoration of their temple worship, for eight days. And from that time to this we celebrate this festival, and call it Lights. I suppose the reason was, because this liberty beyond our hopes appeared to us; and that thence was the name given to that festival. Judas also rebuilt the walls round about the city, and reared towers of great height against the incursions of enemies, and set guards therein. He also fortified the city Bethsura, that it might serve as a citadel against any distresses that might come from our enemies. "


Josephus confirms above the understanding of the Jews of his time, who knew that Daniel had predicted the events of 167 BC, by Antiochus Epiphanes.
Josephus confirms it as a historical fact.


John 10:22 is a reference to the celebration of Hanukkah each year by the Jews of Jesus time.


The Book of Matthew was addressed mainly to a Jewish audience. Jesus was telling the Jews of His time that something similar to 167 BC would happen during 70 AD. Not only did Antiochus desecrate the temple, but he also attacked the city killing thousands of Jews and stopped the temple sacrifices. The temple sacrifices would also stop in 70 AD, due to the destruction of the temple. Based on John 10:22, the Jews were well aware of this historical fulfillment of Daniel’s prophecy. Luke’s Gospel was written to more of a Gentile audience, so he spelled it out for them.


Matthew 24:15-16 and Luke 21:20-21 are clearly parallel accounts, because we have the exact same warning to flee from Judea to the mountains in the second verse of each Gospel.


:::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::::




You do realize there are two seperate abominations of desolation in the Scriptures?
The first one did not fulfill all of Daniel 9:27 and the one that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:15 (some 200 years later) is speaking of a future time when this will happened.
The future prophecy regarding the abomination of desolation involves the Anti-christ which hasn't been revealed YET.
 
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Jon Nelson Darby popularize the so-called pre-trib rapture doctrine denying documented historical facts on the origins of your theology does not change reality.

Chapter 17: The Rapture Theory - Its Surprising Origin

The Doctrine of the Rapture
First understand that the word “Rapture” is not found in the King James translation. There is also no single word used by biblical authors to describe the prophetic factors that comprise the doctrine. Its formulation came about by means of inductive reasoning. Certain biblical passages concerning the Second Coming, and the role Christians will play in that event, were blended together inductively to establish the teaching.

The modern expression “Rapture” has been invented to explain the overall teaching and the term suits the subject well. The basic tenets of the doctrine are simple. It purports that Christ will come back to this earth in two phases. He will first return secretly to rapture His church away from this world so that they might escape the Great Tribulation to occur at the end of the age. Christ then returns in a visible advent to dispense His wrath on the world’s nations. This is the general teaching.

Many details concerning these prime factors are hotly debated. There is especially much argument over the chronological features associated with it. Some think the time lapse between the two phases will be 3 ½ years, others say 7 years. Some feel that the Rapture of the ekklesia occurs before the Tribulation, others about mid-way through. Many suggest that the saints of God will be taken to heaven for protection, while others suggest a geographical area on this earth (as I have shown in various articles). 2 Some feel that only part of the ekklesia will escape, while others say all will be rescued.

These variations and others have multiplied the interpretations among those holding the belief. But all are unanimous on one point: the central theme of the “Rapture Theory” (as it is normally called in the theological world) shows that Christ will return to earth in two phases. They think Christ will come at first secretly for His saints and then He will come visibly with His saints returning with Him from heaven at the actual Second Advent. In this book, when I use the term “Rapture” standing alone, I always mean the “Rapture Theory” of the pre-tribulation theorists.

The Newness of the Doctrine
It may come as a surprise but the doctrine of the Rapture is not mentioned in any Christian writings, of which we have knowledge, until after the year 1830 C.E. Whether the early writers were Greek or Latin, Armenian or Coptic, Syrian or Ethiopian, English or German, orthodox or heretic, no one mentioned it before 1830 (though a sentence in Pseudo-Dionysius in about 500 C.E. could be so interpreted). Of course, those who feel the origin of the teaching is in the Bible would say that it ceased being taught for some unknown reason at the close of the apostolic age only to reappear in 1830. But if the doctrine were so clearly stated in Scripture, it seems incredible that no one should have referred to it before the 19th century.

The lateness of the doctrine does not necessarily mean the teaching is wrong (only the plain statements of the Bible can reveal that). It does show that thousands of eminent scholars over seventeen centuries (including the most astute “Christian Fathers” and those of the Reformation and post-Reformation periods) must be considered prophetic dunces for not having understood so fundamental a teaching. This lapse of seventeen centuries when no one elaborated on the doctrine must be viewed as an obstacle to accepting its reliability.

The Beginnings of the Doctrine
The result of a careful investigation into the origin of the Rapture was published in 1976. This was in an excellent research book that deserves to be read by all people interested in the subject. Its title: The Unbelievable Pre-Trib Origin by Dave MacPherson. 3 He catalogs a great deal of historical material that answers the doctrine’s mysterious derivation. I wish to review the results of his research.

In the middle 1820’s a religious environment began to be established among a few Christians in London, England which proved to be the catalyst from which the doctrine of the Rapture emerged. Expectations of the soon coming of our Lord were being voiced. This was no new thing, but what was unusual was the teaching by a Presbyterian minister named Edward Irving that there had to be a restoration of the spiritual gifts mentioned in 1 Corinthians chapters 12–14 just before Christ’s Second Advent. To Irving, the time had come for those spiritual manifestations to occur. Among the expected gifts was the renewal of speaking in tongues and of prophetic utterances motivated by the spirit.

Irving began to propagate his beliefs. His oratorical skills and enthusiasm caused his congregation in London to grow. Then a number of people began to experience the “gifts.” Once this happened, opposition from the organized churches set in. It resulted in Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church in 1832. His group established themselves as the Catholic Apostolic Church and continued the teachings of Irving. These events were the beginnings of what some call present day Pentecostalism. Some church historians referred to Irving as “the father of modern Pentecostalism.”

What does this have to do with the origin of the Rapture doctrine? Look at what happened in the year 1830 — two years before Irving’s dismissal from the Presbyterian Church. In that year a revival of the “gifts” began to be manifested among some people living in the lowlands of Scotland. They experienced what they called the outpouring of the Spirit. It was accompanied with speaking in “tongues” and other charismatic phenomena. Irving preached that these things must occur and now they were.

On one particular evening, the power of the Holy Spirit was said to have rested on a Miss Margaret Macdonald while she was ill at home. She was dangerously sick and thought she was dying. In spite of this (or perhaps because she is supposed to have come under the “power” of the spirit) for several successive hours she experienced manifestations of“mingled prophecy and vision.” She found her mind in an altered state and began to experience considerable visionary activity.

The message she received during this prophetic vision convinced her that Christ was going to appear in two stages at His Second Advent, and not a single occasion as most all people formerly believed. The spirit emanation revealed that Christ would first come in glory to those who look for Him and again later in a final stage when every eye would see Him. This visionary experience of Miss Macdonald represented the prime source of the modern Rapture doctrine as the historical evidence compiled by Mr. MacPherson reveals.
Thanks for all the words of men regarding the concept of the rapture .
I will stick with the Holy Scriptures which clearly teach the concept of The Church being removed by Jesus before the 7 year tribulation.
And , yes I know the word rapture isn't in the Bible (like many other words aren't) , but the concept clearly is presented in the Scriptures.
I am 100% at peace within my spirit and soul regarding this subject and will not waver.
God's Word doesn't change.
Mens opinions do.
 
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Meester-Chung

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Thanks for all the words of men regarding the concept of the rapture .
Thanks for all the words of men regarding the concept of the rapture .
I will stick with the Holy Scriptures which clearly teach the concept of The Church being removed by Jesus before the 7 year tribulation.
And , yes I know the word rapture isn't in the Bible (like many other words aren't) , but the concept clearly is presented in the Scriptures.
I am 100% at peace within my spirit and soul regarding this subject and will not waver.
God's Word doesn't change.
Mens opinions do.

the pre-trib rapture is a man-made doctrine not based on scripture

nowhere in scripture does it say the church will be removed before a 7-year rapture.


John 16:33 ...'These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye SHALL have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.'

Acts 14:22 ...'Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must THROUGH much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.'

Romans 5:2-3 ...'By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience.'

Romans 8:35-39 ...'Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.'

1 Thessalonians 3:4 ...'For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.'

many people are at peace by believing in false doctrines. feelings does not make them correct
 
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Thanks for all the words of men regarding the concept of the rapture .


the pre-trib rapture is a man-made doctrine not based on scripture

nowhere in scripture does it say the church will be removed before a 7-year rapture.


John 16:33 ...'These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye SHALL have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world.'

Acts 14:22 ...'Confirming the souls of the disciples, and exhorting them to continue in the faith, and that we must THROUGH much tribulation enter into the kingdom of God.'

Romans 5:2-3 ...'By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God. And not only so, but we glory in tribulations also: knowing that tribulation worketh patience.'

Romans 8:35-39 ...'Who shall separate us from the love of Christ? shall tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? As it is written, for thy sake we are killed all the day long; we are accounted as sheep for the slaughter. Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us. For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come, Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.'

1 Thessalonians 3:4 ...'For verily, when we were with you, we told you before that we should suffer tribulation; even as it came to pass, and ye know.'

many people are at peace by believing in false doctrines. feelings does not make them correct
It isn't my feelings about the concept of the rapture that I am at peace with , but rather the truth of God's Word regarding the subject that gives me peace .
Big difference.
The Word of God clearly teaches a pre-trib rapture of The Church before the 7 year tribulation.
I don't care what some website or some commentator has to say about it.
I trust the The Word of God and do not lean on my own understanding.
 
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Meester-Chung

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It isn't my feelings about the concept of the rapture that I am at peace with , but rather the truth of God's Word regarding the subject that gives me peace .
Big difference.
The Word of God clearly teaches a pre-trib rapture of The Church before the 7 year tribulation.
I don't care what some website or some commentator has to say about it.
I trust the The Word of God and do not lean on my own understanding.


point to book and chapter in the Bible where it said there would be a rapture before a 7 year tribulation?

and you still not answer my previous question. on showing me protestant reformers that preached futurism i am still waiting
 
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point to book and chapter in the Bible where it said there would be a rapture before a 7 year tribulation?

and you still not answer my previous question. on showing me protestant reformers that preached futurism i am still waiting
Because that question was presented to another poster.
 
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LittleLambofJesus

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You do realize there are two seperate abominations of desolation in the Scriptures?
The first one did not fulfill all of Daniel 9:27 and the one that Jesus speaks of in Matthew 24:15 (some 200 years later) is speaking of a future time when this will happened.
The future prophecy regarding the abomination of desolation involves the Anti-christ which hasn't been revealed YET.
Would make for a good discussion thread:

Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 11:31 Showing the use of the Definite Article -
THE Abomination of Desolation Matthew24 Mark 13
Hebrew Interlinear of Daniel 12:11 Showing the Absence of the Definite Article -
AN Abomination of Desolation Revelation 18:19


Where is the abomination of desolation of Daniel, Matt and Mark shown in Revelation

Daniel 12:11
And-from-time he-is-taken-away the-continually, and-to-give-of an-abomination, one-desolating, thousand, two hundreds, and ninety days

It is repeated twice in the Olivet Discourse:

Matthew 24
15 Whenever then ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood in a place, holy
(the one-reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) let him be minding/understanding) [Reve 1:3]
16 “then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains.

Mark 13:14
`Whenever yet ye may be seeing the abomination of the desolation, the being declared thru Daniel the prophet, having-stood where not it is binding,
(the one-reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723)let him be minding/understanding),[Reve 1:3]
then those in the Judea, let them be fleeing into the mountains

However, Luke does not mention it in his Gospel, but he does mention "the desolation of Her which is also used in Reve 18:19 "desolation of Jerusalem/Babylon". IMHO

Luke 21:
20 Whenever yet ye may perceiving/seeing Jerusalem being encompassed by armies/stratopedwn <4760>,
then be knowing that is nigh/egguV <1451> the desolating of Her...[Revelation 18:19]
21 “Then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains,
John also uses the phrase "....the one reading...." that is used in Matt 24:15 and Mark 13:14:

Revelation 1:3 does have the exact phrase and greek as does Matt 24:15 Mar 13:14:

Revelation 1:3
Blessed/happy the one reading/anaginwskwn <314> (5723) and the ones hearing, the Logos/Words of the Prophecy, and keepings in it having been written,
for the season/time/kairoV <2540> is nigh/egguV <1451>.

And this is shown in Luke 21:20, also of the Olivet Discourse:

Revelation 18:19
And they cast dust upon their heads and cried-out, weeping and mourning, saying "Woe! Woe! the great City, wherein all were made rich, that had ships at sea, by reason of her prices.
That to one hour She was desolated/hrhmwqh <2049> (5681) .
Matthew 24:15, Mark 13:14 and Luke 21:20
 
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Biblewriter

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provide historical facts evidence that the pre-trib rapture theology was thaught throughout church history?

and explain why none of the reformers from Martin Luther, William Tyndal, John Knox, John Calvin and others never mentioned a pre-trib rapture?
See, for instance, Dispensationalist Only - Ancient teaching of a rapture before the great tribulation.

And page 178 of the book "Dispensationalism Before Darby," by William C. Watson, (Lampion Press, Silverton, OR 2015) which lists about two dozen such teachers from the 1600s and 1700s. (The previous page, 177, lists 11 of these writers who called this event a "rapture," and six of whom spoke of those "left behind.")

Nor are these all the examples that have been clearly identified. They are only the ones I can quickly reference at the moment.
 
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BABerean2

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Yes the bible does clearly teach the concept of the rapture.

There is no trip back to heaven found in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. It must be imported from another passage to make the pretrib doctrine work.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is revealed in chapter 5, on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 16:15-16, it is a Second Coming event.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

For about 1800 years of Church history it was understood that Christ would gather His Church at the beginning of His Second Coming.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written at the time of the American Revolutionary War, the pretrib doctrine was not taught at that time by the majority of America's preachers.

Then John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores, about the time of the Civil War, with your Two Peoples of God doctrine.
Since that time the doctrine has spread like a virus through the modern Church.
Some promoting the doctrine have never heard Darby's name, because the history of the doctrine is often conveniently left out by those teaching the doctrine.

When my wife and I were members of a Dispensational church body, those promoting the doctrine did not tell us it was a recent doctrine.
Now I know why.



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf



.
 
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keras

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Yes the bible does clearly teach the concept of the rapture.
Teachers of false theories promote the 'rapture'. The Bible does not.
The Bible does tell us about people going to live in heaven. There has been a few special cases; like Elijah and just before Jesus Returns, the two witnesses will be resurrected and taken to heaven.
But any prophecy of a general ‘rapture to heaven’ of the Church in the end times, cannot to be found in the Bible.

The prophecy of Paul in 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17, is about the Return of Jesus, when He will gather those faithful Christians who remain alive then. Proved by Matthew 24:30-31 It will be a transportation from where they are on earth, to where Jesus is: in the clouds, then to Jerusalem. NOT a spiritual change for them as yet.

There is no scripture that says there will be a ‘rapture’, but there is plenty saying such a thing is impossible:

John 3:13 No one goes to heaven, except the One who came from there.

John 7:34 Where I go, you cannot come....

John 8:21-23 Your home is on earth......

John 17:15 I do not pray for You to take My followers out of the world, but keep them from the evil one.

Revelation 2:25-26 Hold fast to what you have until I Return. To those who are Victorious, to those who persevere in doing My will until the end, I will give them authority over the nations. Revelation 5:9-10


We will all be here to face the great and terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath:

Luke 21:35....that Day will come upon everyone, the whole world over.

Jeremiah 25:29...I am summoning a Sword against all the inhabitants of the earth.

1 Corinthians 1:7-8 There is no gift you lack, while you wait expectantly for Jesus to Return. He will keep you firm in your faith until the end.......


We Christians will be the people God always wanted in the holy Land:

Psalms 37:29 The righteous will possess the Land and will live there forever.

Zechariah 8:7-8 I am about to rescue My people and bring them back to Zion. They will be My people and I will be their God.

Ezekiel 34:11-16 I will search for My sheep from where they are scattered on the Day of cloud and disaster. They will settle in Israel and become prosperous.

Romans 9:24-26 We [Christians] are God’s people, called out of Jew and Gentile.

You were not My people, now I call you My people and the unloved; beloved. In the same place, [in the holy Land] where Israel was told; you are no longer My people, you will be called; the Sons of the Living God.

I know how the teaching of a ‘rapture’ has permeated the Church, For many, it is the only end times scenario they have heard, so it is very difficult to consider another outcome for those Christians.
But serious thought must be given to the scriptures presented above and know that many pastors and Bible scholars dispute the validity of a ‘rapture.

Why want to go to heaven? We have an incredible destiny awaiting us here, where we belong.
 
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Dave L

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Your almost frenzied denials of a 2000 year gap between the 69th 'week' and the yet to happen 70th 'week', seems very like you cannot abide the idea that you may have to face that last seven years.
That there is and has been gap, is proved by the nearly 2000 years since Jesus' Advent. Jesus Himself prophesied it; Luke 13:32 and Hosea 6:2 confirms it.

You probably won't change your mind, until it all happens anyway. But please cease making wrong assertions, as scripture DOES prove a final 'week' in the end times.
“Do not add to his words, lest he reprove you, and prove you to be a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6)

You say there's a gap. God does not say this. You say there's a 7 year tribulation. God does not say this. You say there's a pre-trib rapture. God does not say this. And so on........
 
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Dave L

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Actually He does.
Which occurs after the Second Coming.
Before the Sanhedrin Jesus speaks of His glorious return (Mark 14:62)
And His disciples were taught to pray in (Matthew 6:10) "Thy Kingdom come" referring to the Millennial Kingdom .
Also Zechariah 14:4-11 speaks of His return and earthly Kingdom.
All literal , NOT allegoryically.
Prophecy which HAS NOT been fulfilled YET.

Jesus Christ is God , not a amillennialist.
= no physical kingdom. = Jesus was Amillennial.
 
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“Do not add to his words, lest he reprove you, and prove you to be a liar.” (Proverbs 30:6)


Speaking for myself, I could never be so arrogant to apply that passage to others, as if it could never apply to me as well, in the event I am wrong about some things myself. And since no one could possibly be correct about every single thing they conclude, what should that be telling one about Proverbs 30:6 in general? That a person should not be applying this passage to others, as if it can never apply to them as well. Thus falsely indicating this passage is only applicable to the ones one is disagreeing with about things and not them as well at times.
 
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claninja

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But Jesus Himself is not speaking in every verse of the bible.

I disagree, Jesus, the very word of God, breathes throughout all scripture for they are his words.
2 Timothy 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for instruction, for conviction, for correction, and for training in righteousness

22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.

23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.

The context of Ezekiel 39:21-24 is 70 year exile. There are other scriptures that attest to this for example Ezekiel 11:

Ezekiel 11:10 You will fall by the sword, and I will judge you to the border of Israel. THEN you will know that I am the LORD.
 
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Biblewriter

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There is no trip back to heaven found in 1 Thessalonians chapter 4. It must be imported from another passage to make the pretrib doctrine work.

The timing of the event at the end of chapter 4 is revealed in chapter 5, on "the day of the Lord", when He "comes as a thief".
Based on 2 Peter 3:10-13, and Revelation 16:15-16, it is a Second Coming event.

The words "we" and "sleep" in 1 Thessalonians 5:10 prove that chapter 5 is connected to chapter 4.

For about 1800 years of Church history it was understood that Christ would gather His Church at the beginning of His Second Coming.

Based on thousands of pages of commentary and sermons written at the time of the American Revolutionary War, the pretrib doctrine was not taught at that time by the majority of America's preachers.

Then John Nelson Darby showed up on our shores, about the time of the Civil War, with your Two Peoples of God doctrine.
Since that time the doctrine has spread like a virus through the modern Church.
Some promoting the doctrine have never heard Darby's name, because the history of the doctrine is often conveniently left out by those teaching the doctrine.

When my wife and I were members of a Dispensational church body, those promoting the doctrine did not tell us it was a recent doctrine.
Now I know why.



PROPHETIC DEVELOPMENTS
with particular reference to the early Brethren Movement.
F. Roy Coad (Brethren Historian) pages 10-26
http://brethrenhistory.org/qwicsitePro/php/docsview.php?docid=418


Lacunza, Manuel, “Coming of Messiah in Glory and Majesty“
PDF Files


Origin of the Pretrib Rapture Doctrine
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_23.pdf


Pretribulationist Revisionism
(Grant Jeffrey’s revision of early Church Posttrib viewpoints)
Pastor Tim Warner
http://www.4windsfellowships.net/articles/rapture_22.pdf



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They did not tell you that it was a recent doctrine for two reasons. It is immaterial, and it is also a lie.
 
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BABerean2

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Anyone that would teach that there is no physical everlasting kingdom once Jesus has returned, that teaching needs to be rejected big time.

There will not be a physical kingdom on this rotten, sin-cursed world, based on 2 Peter 3:10-13.

There will be a kingdom in the New Heavens and the New Earth, which will be just as real as this planet.


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