Lol I like how you say I don’t know what abiding is then give no explanation of what it is.
lol is right! How many times have I explained that abiding is fellowship with the Lord?
You say a person is saved without producing fruit or good works which a person who has faith WILL produce fruit.
I didn't say they WILL. That is commanded. Do you understand what a command means?
iow (explanation coming) believers are supposed to bear fruit. That's what we were created in Christ Jesus FOR. Eph 2:10 says exactly that.
It’s like saying a wind sock will fill up and point in the direction of the wind. If it doesn’t fill up and point in the direction of the wind it means there is no wind. In the same way if a person doesn’t produce fruit they have no faith.
There is absolutely no connection or relevance between your wind sock and believers who are commanded to bear fruit.
He said in verse 14
“What doth it profit, my brethren, if a man say he hath faith, but have not works? can that faith save him?”
James 2:14 ASV
Can that faith save HIM.
The obvious answer is "no". But the real question is:
"what is it that such a faith can't save him from?"
While you obviously think "hell" is the answer, well, no it isn't. The believer who doesn't demonstrate their faith before others (per v.18) will not be saved from the charge of hypocrite.
[QUOET] James didn’t say can that faith save someone else he said can that faith save the person who doesn’t have works.[/QUOTE]
The issue is what a "dead faith" can't save FROM. Hypocrisy is the answer; not hell.
Verses 15 & 16 are examples of what it means to do good works not examples of those that faith doesn’t save.
Please read the 2 verses. It isn't an example of what it means to do good works. In fact, QUITE THE OPPOSITE. The example is of a hypocrite who says one thing, but does the exact opposite.
Though he told the needy persons to "be filled and be warmed", he did absolutely nothing to meet their needs. That's a hypocrite.
The word save is referring to salvation not saving someone from the cold or hunger.
Wrong on both counts. It ISN'T about soul salvation, nor about saving someone ELSE from anything. It's about saving yourself from the charge of hypocrisy.
The word “him” cannot be referring to someone who hasn’t been mentioned yet.
Correct.
Demons are fallen angels who have known the Trinity since before creation. You think that demons don’t know about Jesus and the Holy Spirit?
Didn't you read my post? That is my point.
You think they were monotheists?
Did you not read v.19????
Here it is: You believe that
there is one God. Good!
Even the demons believe that—and shudder.
What ELSE can "there is one God" mean, but monotheism. I even contrasted the Jewish view of God with the pagan view of polytheism. Are you not aware of these terms?
And James notes that the demons DO believe that "God is One", or "there is one God".
They witnessed creation in which everything was created thru Jesus. The term One God is referring to the Trinity but James doesn’t mention the Trinity because it had not yet been decided by the church. One God is referring to all 3 personalities of the Trinity.
Apparently you are not aware of the FACT that the Trinity means One God in 3 Persons.
You really need to get up to speed here.
Notice how when I go into detailed descriptions on a passage or verse I give a definition of each word explaining step by step what each word means and when you go into “detail” you start bringing up things like fellowship which is not even mentioned in the entire passage and resort to jumping around in scriptures to try to make sense of what is clearly being said in the passage we’re discussing.
I cannot help your lack of discernment in failing to recognize what fellowship is and how it relates to the passage.
You jump to John 10:28 completely ignoring verse 27 says His sheep follow.
There is nothing to ignore about the description of Jesus' sheep in v.27. The actions of v.27 do NOT represent the conditions by which one becomes a sheep of Jesus, which seems to be your view.
Jesus already gave us the "how" to become saved (one of His sheep) back in v.9 - I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved.They will come in and go out, and find pasture.
Which says NOTHING about following Him. In fact, sheep are EXPECTED to follow their shepherd. But ask any shepherded about how often sheep get lost, etc.
If someone is not currently following they are not His sheep.
This is merely your opinion. There are no verses that support your opinion.
Jesus said
“And many will turn away from me and betray and hate each other. And many false prophets will appear and will deceive many people. Sin will be rampant everywhere, and the love of many will grow cold. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.”
Matthew 24:10-13
First, Jesus said nothing here about reverting to something other than His sheep. Nothing about turning into a goat.
Second, the context refutes your ideas. The "enduring to the end" is in reference to the specific 7 year period known as the Tribulation.
Here is the proof:
1 Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings.
2 “Do you see all these things?” he asked. “Truly I tell you, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down.”
3 As Jesus was sitting on the Mount of Olives, the disciples came to him privately. “Tell us,” they said, “when will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?”
4 Jesus answered: “Watch out that no one deceives you.
5 For many will come in my name, claiming, ‘I am the Messiah,’ and will deceive many.
6 You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come.
7 Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places.
8 All these are the beginning of birth pains.
9 “Then you will be handed over to be persecuted and put to death, and you will be hated by all nations because of me.
10 At that time many will turn away from the faith and will betray and hate each other,
11 and many false prophets will appear and deceive many people.
12 Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold,
13 but the one who stands firm to the end will be saved.
14 And this gospel of the kingdom will be preached in the whole world as a testimony to all nations, and then the end will come.
15 “So when you see standing in the holy place ‘the abomination that causes desolation,’spoken of through the prophet Daniel—let the reader understand—
The one who endures to the end is His sheep. They abided (remained) in Him.
You're guilty of conflating verses and passages that are NOT related.
His sheep follow present tense.
You love to note the present tense, but I asked you to explain what it means. Are you able to do that?
They abide in Him and anyone who is abiding in Him WILL produce fruit. Not might or may produce fruit.
Of course. Because Jesus SAID SO in John 15. But you still fail to understand what it means to abide. Since it is a command for people to follow, your view must be that we are commanded to save ourselves by our own abiding. But the Bible never says that.
You are disregarding verse 6 they will be violently and intensely thrown away without care or regard, withered (dry up and waste away) then thrown into the fire to be burned (consumed).
I already explained it, so I haven't disregarded it in any way.
Ok let’s examine the full message of 1 Peter 1 and continue into chapter 2 shall we?
“All praise to God, the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. It is by his great mercy that we have been born again, because God raised Jesus Christ from the dead. Now we live with great expectation,(haven’t received it yet) and we have a priceless inheritance—an inheritance that is kept in heaven for you, pure and undefiled, beyond the reach of change and decay.(again salvation is not received yet) And through your faith, God is protecting you by his power until you receive this salvation, which is ready to be revealed on the last day for all to see. So be truly glad. There is wonderful joy ahead, even though you must endure many trials (MUST ENDURE) for a little while. These trials will show that your faith is genuine. (Not enduring aka abiding will show your faith is not genuine hence James 2:14 and John 15:5) It is being tested as fire tests and purifies gold—though your faith is far more precious than mere gold. So when your faith remains strong through many trials, it will bring you much praise and glory and honor on the day when Jesus Christ is revealed to the whole world. (Still enduring in hope of receiving salvation) You love him even though you have never seen him. Though you do not see him now, you trust him; and you rejoice with a glorious, inexpressible joy. The reward for trusting him (faith) will be the salvation of your souls. (Still haven’t received salvation) This salvation was something even the prophets wanted to know more about when they prophesied about this gracious salvation prepared for you. They wondered what time or situation the Spirit of Christ within them was talking about when he told them in advance about Christ’s suffering and his great glory afterward. They were told that their messages were not for themselves, but for you. And now this Good News has been announced to you by those who preached in the power of the Holy Spirit sent from heaven. It is all so wonderful that even the angels are eagerly watching these things happen. So prepare your minds for action and exercise self-control. Put all your hope in the gracious salvation that will come to you when Jesus Christ is revealed to the world. So you must live as God’s obedient children. Don’t slip back into your old ways of living to satisfy your own desires. (You MUST abide, MUST continue to follow) You didn’t know any better then. But now you must be holy in everything you do, just as God who chose you is holy. For the Scriptures say, “You must be holy because I am holy.” And remember that the heavenly Father to whom you pray has no favorites. (God has no favorites believer or not if you don’t abide He will condemn you) He will judge or reward you according to what you do. So you must live in reverent fear of him during your time here as “temporary residents.” (again must abide) For you know that God paid a ransom to save you from the empty life you inherited from your ancestors. And it was not paid with mere gold or silver, which lose their value. It was the precious blood of Christ, the sinless, spotless Lamb of God. God chose him as your ransom long before the world began, but now in these last days he has been revealed for your sake. Through Christ you have come to trust in God. And you have placed your faith and hope in God because he raised Christ from the dead and gave him great glory. You were cleansed from your sins when you obeyed the truth, so now you must show sincere love to each other as brothers and sisters. Love each other deeply with all your heart. For you have been born again, but not to a life that will quickly end. Your new life will last forever because it comes from the eternal, living word of God. (A better translation for this verse “having been begotten again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, through the word of God, which liveth and abideth.”)
As the Scriptures say, “People are like grass; their beauty is like a flower in the field. The grass withers and the flower fades. But the word of the Lord remains forever.” And that word is the Good News that was preached to you.”
1 Peter 1:3-25 NLT
Peter isn’t finished yet
“So get rid of all evil behavior. Be done with all deceit, hypocrisy, jealousy, and all unkind speech. Like newborn babies, you must crave pure spiritual milk so that you will grow into a full experience of salvation. (So you will GROW into the full experience of salvation. Still haven’t received it yet) Cry out for this nourishment, now that you have had a taste of the Lord’s kindness. You are coming to Christ, who is the living cornerstone of God’s temple. He was rejected by people, but he was chosen by God for great honor. And you are living stones that God is building into his spiritual temple. What’s more, you are his holy priests. Through the mediation of Jesus Christ, you offer spiritual sacrifices that please God. As the Scriptures say, “I am placing a cornerstone in Jerusalem, chosen for great honor, and anyone who trusts in him will never be disgraced.” Yes, you who trust him recognize the honor God has given him. But for those who reject him, “The stone that the builders rejected has now become the cornerstone.” And, “He is the stone that makes people stumble, the rock that makes them fall.” They stumble because they do not obey God’s word, and so they meet the fate that was planned for them. But you are not like that, for you are a chosen people. You are royal priests, a holy nation, God’s very own possession. As a result, you can show others the goodness of God, for he called you out of the darkness into his wonderful light. “Once you had no identity as a people; now you are God’s people. Once you received no mercy; now you have received God’s mercy.” Dear friends, I warn you as “temporary residents and foreigners” to keep away from worldly desires that wage war against your very souls. Be careful to live properly among your unbelieving neighbors. Then even if they accuse you of doing wrong, they will see your honorable behavior, and they will give honor to God when he judges the world.”
1 Peter 2:1-12 NLT
Peter put a ton of emphasis on obedience and abiding into chapters 1 & 2. They are not mere suggestions but commands from God not to be taken lightly. Our salvation is contingent on walking in faith.
The problem with what you have quoted is that it came from a paraphrased translation, which is considered INFERIOR to any translation of dynamic or formal equivalence.
There are many errors in your NLT. I recommend you get either (or both) an NASB or NIV and compare between them. Ignore the NLT.
Ok let’s examine exactly why the goats were rejected. They did call on the name of The Lord.
No they didn't. They didn't "call on" the name of the Lord. They did address Him as Lord.
You know why? Because the scene is the Judgment Day when Jesus IS sitting on the throne. Everyone will bow their knee. Everyone. So of course they will on that day, address Him as Lord.
““Then the King will turn to those on the left and say, ‘Away with you, you cursed ones, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his demons. For I was hungry, and you didn’t feed me. I was thirsty, and you didn’t give me a drink. I was a stranger, and you didn’t invite me into your home. I was naked, and you didn’t give me clothing. I was sick and in prison, and you didn’t visit me.’ “Then they will reply, ‘Lord, when did we ever see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and not help you?’ (they called unto Him Lord) “And he will answer, ‘I tell you the truth, when you refused to help the least of these my brothers and sisters, you were refusing to help me.’ “And they will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life.””
Matthew 25:41-46
Did Jesus ever say away with you cursed ones for you never believed?
It seems apparent that you never read about the Great White Throne Judgment in Rev 20. I recommend that you read v.11-15, and pay particular attention to WHY people are cast into the lake of fire. It's real clear.
No He said away with you for you did not produce good works. Why didn’t they produce good works? Because they didn’t have faith.
Sure. Those who didn't have faith are those who never believed.
Let's review the title of this thread: 2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security. Why that title? Because that verse tells us who WILL BE condemned; those who NEVER BELIEVED.
If they had faith they would’ve done good works.
Your assumptions are naive. If everyone who expresses saving faith in Christ, why are those same people COMMANDED to bear fruit (good works)? But you can't answer that.
