2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

[LightLoveHope]

1 John 2:19 is speaking about apostates who left the apostolic church of God. The antichrists that claim Jesus is not the Messiah. He is speaking about a particular group not all who turn away from Jesus. To say this applies to everyone is making an assumption that is not supported by John’s statements.

I agree the context of 1 John 2:19 is a specific meaning.

But the point can be made more generally that people can come to faith, experience what appears to be full conversion, being spirit filled, living a good life in Jesus and then go pop, off the rails and do something else.

Putting labels on this does not help, except it fits the parable of the seed and the sower.
I like to talk about life, and dwelling in Christ, because this is where the life is.

For some the experience of faith is just a life style and not transformative.
I am rather into total transformation and being rebuilt in who we are.
As far as I see, this is what Jesus is calling us to, to be like Him, and to take daily steps towards this goal. I am challenged by the methodists and confession of sins as well as reports that the early church openly confessed sin issues at every meeting on sundays. This is community in a way I have not seen, but possibly is something quite important.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I agree the context of 1 John 2:19 is a specific meaning.

But the point can be made more generally that people can come to faith, experience what appears to be full conversion, being spirit filled, living a good life in Jesus and then go pop, off the rails and do something else.

Putting labels on this does not help, except it fits the parable of the seed and the sower.
I like to talk about life, and dwelling in Christ, because this is where the life is.

For some the experience of faith is just a life style and not transformative.
I am rather into total transformation and being rebuilt in who we are.
As far as I see, this is what Jesus is calling us to, to be like Him, and to take daily steps towards this goal. I am challenged by the methodists and confession of sins as well as reports that the early church openly confessed sin issues at every meeting on sundays. This is community in a way I have not seen, but possibly is something quite important.

Please consider the parable of the vine and who Jesus was speaking to in John 15:1-10. Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles to remain in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from Him and thrown into the fire.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Please consider the parable of the vine and who Jesus was speaking to in John 15:1-10. Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles to remain in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from Him and thrown into the fire.

My friend, I am one who believes people come to faith and can chose to leave.
It is the nature of free will and knowing Jesus.

In my discussions with many, it is obvious how you regard humanity and salvation
effects what one believes is security and what is choice.

Jesus chose Peter, yet prayed Peter would not lose faith.
Jesus says His sheep listen to Him and follow Him, as a statement of fact, which
implies some will come, pay some attention and then leave, which does happen.

My current conclusions is with an open heart and faith when we see Him, He will
complete His work of us becoming like Him.
Our faith is only alive if we continue to walk and follow else it dies and we fall away.

It is obvious the apostles struggled with this issue, and came to varied positions.
Paul appears to believe once secure, even if we go wayward we will return.
Hebrews suggests some go too far.

I know we need to follow Jesus, because that is life, not in a brainwashed religious
sense, but in all our relationships, they become pure gold. It is hard to define
the feeling coming out of a disfunctional non-expressive family and now living
in an open freely loving and expressive group. It is what changes words I am
writing now into living things that have value.

 

[BNR32FAN]

My friend, I am one who believes people come to faith and can chose to leave.
It is the nature of free will and knowing Jesus.

In my discussions with many, it is obvious how you regard humanity and salvation
effects what one believes is security and what is choice.

Jesus chose Peter, yet prayed Peter would not lose faith.
Jesus says His sheep listen to Him and follow Him, as a statement of fact, which
implies some will come, pay some attention and then leave, which does happen.

My current conclusions is with an open heart and faith when we see Him, He will
complete His work of us becoming like Him.
Our faith is only alive if we continue to walk and follow else it dies and we fall away.

It is obvious the apostles struggled with this issue, and came to varied positions.
Paul appears to believe once secure, even if we go wayward we will return.
Hebrews suggests some go too far.

I know we need to follow Jesus, because that is life, not in a brainwashed religious
sense, but in all our relationships, they become pure gold. It is hard to define
the feeling coming out of a disfunctional non-expressive family and now living
in an open freely loving and expressive group. It is what changes words I am
writing now into living things that have value.

Amen please forgive me I must’ve misunderstood you.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Amen please forgive me I must’ve misunderstood you.

I thought you did, but it takes time to know each other. I do not take your words badly so there is nothing to forgive.

I have found in these formats users jump to conclusions too quickly. Some things I write and express are my thoughts in the moment, which I may later refine or hone. For some this is very difficult to cope with because there is only one way of seeing everything......
Not easy on a sharing discussion forum with people of varied backgrounds and views

 

[BNR32FAN]

I thought you did, but it takes time to know each other. I do not take your words badly so there is nothing to forgive.

I have found in these formats users jump to conclusions too quickly. Some things I write and express are my thoughts in the moment, which I may later refine or hone. For some this is very difficult to cope with because there is only one way of seeing everything......
Not easy on a sharing discussion forum with people of varied backgrounds and views

Yes I come here to test my beliefs, to help others understand, and to learn more about God’s Word. I know many people here can be very impolite and even downright rude sometimes when preaching the gospel. I think it’s important that we always remain humble and kind in order to represent Christ in a positive manner and let the scriptures do the teaching. I also think it’s important that we understand that so many people here are seeking and knocking and when the time is right I am confident the door will be opened and the Holy Spirit is faithful to complete that which He has begun in all of us. PRAISE HIS HOLY NAME!!

 

[FreeGrace2]

"I am secure in Christ", he cries. "How do you know?" a caller cries out.
"Because Jesus died for me on the cross, and I love Him and His people"

Another says, "I once believed that rubbish but left it long ago, they are all haters, pharisees and hypocrites. God loves those who accept His free gift, and do not try and prove they are anything."

Now both will appear before the throne of grace, both assured that they are secure.
But which one actually is His sheep?

The answer is found in comparing several verses:
John 5:24 - “Very truly I tell you, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be judged but has crossed over from death to life.
John 6:47 - Very truly I tell you, the one who believes has eternal life.
John 10:28 - I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand.

John expressed it like this
"We know that we have passed from death to life, because we love our brothers. Anyone who does not love remains in death." 1 John 3:14

Let's read all that John wrote about having eternal life:
1 John 5:11, 13
11 And this is the testimony: God has given us eternal life, and this life is in his Son.
13 I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life.

But whoever hates his brother is in the darkness and walks around in the darkness; he does not know where he is going, because the darkness has blinded him. I write to you, dear children, because your sins have been forgiven on account of his name.
1 John 2:11-12

Yes, believers who hate their brothers ARE in the darkness and don't know where they are going.

But note what John NEVER said; that such believers lose eternal life, or will perish, or any such thing.

 

[BNR32FAN]

Yes, believers who hate their brothers ARE in the darkness and don't know where they are going.

But note what John NEVER said; that such believers lose eternal life, or will perish, or any such thing.

What about the passage you were discussing just 4 days ago?

“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:15‬

2 Thess 2:12 teaches eternal security

 

[LightLoveHope]

There is a joke, let us discuss how dead a dead person is.
They could be partly dead for the next few weeks or permanently dead or suddenly brought back to life at some future point.

I think the concern is not about the theory about what might happen in the future but they are dead now, and dead things tend to rot and cause lots of disease and problems.

So a brother has spiritually died, or is just dead and continually sins. What are we told to do.

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17

Now if we cannot dwell with those who continually openly sin and live a sinful life, how is it we can expect them to go to heaven and dwell with Jesus?

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:4-6

So John is simply saying to know Jesus is to do what He commands else on is a liar.
Obeying Jesus's word then God's love is truly in him.

John is not discussing how someone can come to faith and then fall away, are they
saved or not. John is talking about coming to true faith, and in reality this is what
we are talking about, have people actually reached a knowledge of Jesus or not.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Please consider the parable of the vine and who Jesus was speaking to in John 15:1-10. Jesus is warning His 11 faithful apostles to remain in Him and produce fruit otherwise they will be cut off from Him and thrown into the fire.

No, farmers throw LITERAL unproductive branches into a fire.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life, which are believers per John 5:24, 6:47, shall never perish.

Your theory is in direct conflict with what the Savior says.

 

[FreeGrace2]

My friend, I am one who believes people come to faith and can chose to leave.

And you are correct. Jesus made that clear in the parable of the soils. Luke 8:13 says exactly that.

However, what Jesus never said is one can leave their salvation.

Remember John 10:28? Those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

It is obvious the apostles struggled with this issue, and came to varied positions.
Paul appears to believe once secure, even if we go wayward we will return.
Hebrews suggests some go too far.

Do you actually believe that the Bible is internally contradicted??

 

[FreeGrace2]

I said:
"Yes, believers who hate their brothers ARE in the darkness and don't know where they are going.

But note what John NEVER said; that such believers lose eternal life, or will perish, or any such thing."

What about the passage you were discussing just 4 days ago?

“Whosoever hateth his brother is a murderer: and ye know that no murderer hath eternal life abiding in him.”
‭‭1 John‬ ‭3:15‬

What about it? But since we've had a lengthy discussion about fellowship and what abiding means, I won't further bore you with the details.

If 1 John 3:15 means loss of eternal life, then Jesus lied. Pure and simple. If Jesus didn't lie, then it was the beloved apostle who lied.

So, who do you think was doing the lying?

 

[FreeGrace2]

So a brother has spiritually died, or is just dead and continually sins.

This comment reveals a significant lack of knowledge on your part.

Please explain how a "brother" can "die spiritually"? Recall the number of verses I shared with you about those who believe possessing eternal life. Can eternal life die? If so, then words simply don't mean anything, and we can define anything we want any way we want. But words DO have meaning. And the very meaning of "eternal life" is that it is eternal. Therefore, it cannot die. Period.

1 Pet 1:23 says we have been born again of imperishable seed. Basically the exact same thing Jesus said in John 10:28.

If your brother sins against you, go and show him his fault, just between the two of you. If he listens to you, you have won your brother over. But if he will not listen, take one or two others along, so that 'every matter may be established by the testimony of two or three witnesses.'
If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, treat him as you would a pagan or a tax collector.
Matt 18:15-17

Do you realize that there is nothing in this passage about losing salvation?

Now if we cannot dwell with those who continually openly sin and live a sinful life, how is it we can expect them to go to heaven and dwell with Jesus?

If said person ever believed, they were given eternal life, and Jesus SAYS they shall never perish. Why do you keep disbelieving Jesus?

The man who says, "I know him," but does not do what he commands is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But if anyone obeys his word, God's love is truly made complete in him. This is how we know we are in him: Whoever claims to live in him must walk as Jesus did.
1 John 2:4-6

It should be obviuos that those who don't believe what Jesus said in John 10:28 do NOT know Him.

Those who really know Him not only know what He says, but BELIEVE what He says.

So John is simply saying to know Jesus is to do what He commands else on is a liar. Obeying Jesus's word then God's love is truly in him.

The believer who thinks that a believer can perish is a liar.

 

[LightLoveHope]

Once you dilute the eternal nature of communion with Jesus to being just say a few words, think Jesus is a great guy, you can bend and twist different verses to reassure the faithful into a universalist easy believism, you have made a mockery of the promises of Christ and His intentions.

I saw one tv program where a "prophet" said ask Jesus for a new heart, and you will get it. So 100+ audience members were then eternal beings with pure hearts and cleansed consciences.
It was really this ridiculous.

Jesus and John the Baptist expected fruit of repentance from people who had got right with God. Odd that in this version of the gospel fruit is irrelevant.

Telling believers they lack knowledge is not wise, and shows a definate sense of superiority which has to be earnt not imposed. And with the amount of heresy and junk around, it needs to be more than anyone who says "I believe in Jesus" is saved. I know many who would claim this and know little more than the words. There are some basic points of conviction, realisation and commitment that are essential, which are demonstrated in someones life, before they can be taken seriously. And this is a commitment to a walk, not to arriving

 

[BNR32FAN]

No, farmers throw LITERAL unproductive branches into a fire.

Jesus said those He gives eternal life, which are believers per John 5:24, 6:47, shall never perish.

Your theory is in direct conflict with what the Savior says.

I’m not concerned with your interpretation of scriptures.

 

[FreeGrace2]

Once you dilute the eternal nature of communion with Jesus to being just say a few words, think Jesus is a great guy, you can bend and twist different verses to reassure the faithful into a universalist easy believism, you have made a mockery of the promises of Christ and His intentions.

I fully agree. No one is saved by "just saying a few words", or "think Jesus is a great guy". And I still wonder why you keep bringing up this "universalism" nonsense.

Telling believers they lack knowledge is not wise

Believers who lack knowledge are not wise.

 

[BNR32FAN]

I said:
"Yes, believers who hate their brothers ARE in the darkness and don't know where they are going.

But note what John NEVER said; that such believers lose eternal life, or will perish, or any such thing."

What about it? But since we've had a lengthy discussion about fellowship and what abiding means, I won't further bore you with the details.

If 1 John 3:15 means loss of eternal life, then Jesus lied. Pure and simple. If Jesus didn't lie, then it was the beloved apostle who lied.

So, who do you think was doing the lying?

So you prefer to say Jesus lied rather than reevaluate your beliefs? There’s no way you could be mistaken? You just refuse to understand John 10:27. When you look at James 2:14-26 Matthew 24:45-51, Matthew 25:31-46, John 15:1-10 in the proper context then read John 10:27-28 in the same context you will be able to see His message. The gate to the Kingdom is narrow. The path to destruction is wide. Salvation by nothing more than believing is a HUGE gate. In fact the only way it can get any bigger is universalism. Everyone gets save believer or not. No church taught eternal security for the first 1500 years of Christianity. All of Christianity was wrong until Martin Luther and John Calvin came along? The teachings of the apostles were thrown out the window the moment they left? The gates of hell prevailed against the church until Martin Luther cane along to save it? You just don’t realize how much evidence is stacked against eternal security. What you believe isn’t even faith alone. It’s less than faith alone. If a person has a dead and useless faith their still saved. It’s a terrible fantasy on the day of judgement.

 

[LightLoveHope]

I fully agree. No one is saved by "just saying a few words", or "think Jesus is a great guy". And I still wonder why you keep bringing up this "universalism" nonsense.


Believers who lack knowledge are not wise.

Believers are wise because the follow Jesus. That is the definition of wisdom,
the fear of God.

Universalism begins when the bar to salvation becomes meaningless.
On the security of faith, as I have said I know I am saved because I know Jesus
loves me through the cross and my acceptance of it. And I rejoice in His gift
by following, because I believe what He says, I will build my house upon a rock
and it will stand.

Now this is me and my Saviour. Next comes my view what happens to those
who fall away. The truth is it is up to God.

Do some appear to come to faith, and then leave? Yes.
Do I have assurance of salvation? Yes.
Has anyone real hope if they abandon believing is Jesus? The promises
are for those who believe, not for those who have gone cold.

Now I wonder why this is such a difficult issue among people who desire
to follow Jesus? Is there another agenda here?

 

[LightLoveHope]

Chain of custody.

Jesus said His people grow from something small into a fantastic body, honouring
Him, His ambassadors on earth.

In my fellowship, there are many ambassadors, with ups and downs, but who have
stayed faithful and growing in the Lord.

So the chain of custody has been through churches and monks who we would not
recognise easily today. And in their way they honoured the Lord, and brought
glory to His name. Martin Luther himself was a monk.
He wanted to reform the church not destroy it.

It is easy today to comment on circumstances and people which was rural, brutal
and very short, and simply not see the wonder of Gods work in many nations.

Tyndale and the spreading of the bible in english was a fantastic step along this
road. But for many with their odd views, would regard all these people without
grace or hope. Strangely many of these folk new the bible far more than the
average believer today
today.

 

[FreeGrace2]

So you prefer to say Jesus lied rather than reevaluate your beliefs?

Wow. This is quite a twisted question!

In fact, my beliefs are what Jesus SAID. So, no, my views do have Jesus lying.

it's the views of those who believe that believers can perish that have Jesus lying, because of what He said in John 10:28 and your views directly oppose what He said.

There’s no way you could be mistaken?

Please explain how any recipient of eternal life can perish then. Because Jesus said those He gives eternal life (that makes them recipients) shall never perish.

You just refuse to understand John 10:27.

No, I believe that is your department. v.27 is a description of what Jesus' sheep DO.

Not a condition for HOW to become one of His sheep.

When you look at James 2:14-26 Matthew 24:45-51, Matthew 25:31-46, John 15:1-10 in the proper context then read John 10:27-28 in the same context you will be able to see His message.

Again, the refusal to understand department is all yours. None of these other passages is related AT ALL to John 10:28.

As I previously explained (color coded, no less), John 10:28 is a statement about both the CAUSE and EFFECT of having eternal life.

The CAUSE is Jesus Himself, who gives eternal life.
The EFFECT is never perishing, which Jesus said about recipients of eternal life.

The gate to the Kingdom is narrow.

It sure is. Only those given eternal life will enter the gate and the kingdom.

The path to destruction is wide.

Correct. And those who have NOT believed shall be condemned. 2 Thess 2:12 (this thread) and John 3:18.

Salvation by nothing more than believing is a HUGE gate.

This is perversion of the gospel. Read Gal 1. There is NOTHING MORE anyone can do to receive eternal life. Don't you remember the 24 verses that specifically noted only faith for salvation/eternal life? Do you want me to share again?

No church taught eternal security for the first 1500 years of Christianity.

I am so tired of this garbage. Jesus, Paul and Peter all taught it. So knock it off.

Jesus: Jn 5:24, 6:47, 10:28
Paul: Rom 6:23 with 11:29
Peter: 1 Peter 1:23

All of Christianity was wrong until Martin Luther and John Calvin came along?

Don't you understand that there was no such thing as a unified "Christianity" after the 1st Century? Romanism totally perverted the gospel and added works to faith for salvation and even sold "indulgences". There were biblical believers all along, but not in any organized manner.

So you can quit referring to "the church" and "Christianity" as some sort of unified organization.

The teachings of the apostles were thrown out the window the moment they left?

Actually, not long after. Or have you not read any of the NT?

Acts 20:29 - I know that after I leave, savage wolves will come in among you and will not spare the flock.

2 Tim 4:3,4
3 For the time will come when people will not put up with sound doctrine. Instead, to suit their own desires, they will gather around them a great number of teachers to say what their itching ears want to hear.
4 They will turn their ears away from the truth and turn aside to myths.

You just don’t realize how much evidence is stacked against eternal security.

And you just don't see how ridiculous this statement is. You've got NOTHING in Scripture that states that salvation can be lost, and I have shared with you verses that directly speak of being eternally secure.

Just how much more do you think eternal security is than "shall never perish"???

What you believe isn’t even faith alone. It’s less than faith alone.

This is just laughable. Salvation IS by faith and nothing else.

If a person has a dead and useless faith their still saved.

Let me ask you once again: if a person has been given eternal life by Jesus, can they EVER perish? Please answer.