We are not saved by works?

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Verses please.

“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21)

Find anything in a person before the new birth that would choose the real Christ.

Geralt · Oct 1, 2018

amazing that you inserted 'circumcision' and jumped around other scripture passages to fit and support your idea. we dont do such acrobatic hermeneutics.

Jason0047 said:
Romans 3 is talking about "Initial Salvation" and or how we are not saved by the works of the Law. Romans 3:1 says what profit is there in circumcision? What advantage does the Jew have? Romans 4:9-12 makes a case how we are not initially saved by circumcision involving Abraham. But did circumcision save in the Old Testament? Yes, after one is first saved by faith in the Lord, a person needed to then later continue in the faith and be circumcised in the OT Covenant (When it used to be in effect before the cross). For...

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:

"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:

"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).

In other words, Paul is fighting against "Circumcision Salvationism" (Which was a heresy condemned also at the Jerusalem counsel - See Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24). So he is saying that folks need to first repent (seek forgiveness) and believe in Jesus for salvation first as the foundation of their faith to be saved. This is why Paul says all have sinned and come short of the glory of God. Paul is talking about how everyone has sinned at one point in their lives. For even the believer sinned as part of their old life (See Ephesians 2:2-3). You no doubt believe Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 is even referring to the present current state of the believer in how they live now. Meaning, you believe that Paul is saying that believers even sin in the present tense all the time. But this is not what Paul is saying. How do we know? Well, if you believe Paul is referring to the present tense life of how a believer lives in regards to Romans 3:10, and Romans 3:23, then you must also believe a believer does not seek after God and they have no understanding according to Romans 3:11, too. Are you saying you have no understanding and you do not seek after God? I sure hope not. So then you cannot make Romans 3:10 and Romans 3:23 apply to your present life in how you live, either. In relation to the believer: These verses are talking about our old life before we came to Christ (See again: Ephesians 2:2-3).

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
How do you force resuscitation on a comatose victim? That's what we are spiritually when God saves us.

As I said, I believe God awakens a person to His drawing in order to choose Him or not. I understand what you believe, but you have to make your case with Scripture and you have to explain those verses I posted to you before on our free will choice concerning God. Anyways, here are a few more verses for you to consider.

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," (Titus 2:11).

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32).

“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” - 1 John 2:2

"Jesus tasted death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

There are false prophets who deny the Lord had bought them.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1).

Not sure how this verse works with your belief.

Emli · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
You cannot believe and repent unless you are born again.

“But the fruit of the Spirit is love, joy, peace, longsuffering, gentleness, goodness, faith,” (Galatians 5:22)

You are misusing that verse.

What you're saying makes no sense, for how can one be born-again without first believing and repenting? I was born-again after having believed, not before.

2 Corinthians 7:10 states that godly sorrow leads to repentance, which leads to salvation. Also read Acts 2:38 which clearly tells us that repentance comes before receiving the Holy Spirit.
And if you want to hold on to your odd interpretation of Galatians 5:22, at least understand that we don't have to be born-again yet in order for the Holy Spirit to work in us, as He calls us and draws us near to Him before we are saved. John 6:44 And then you can circle back to what I wrote above and understand how that works.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2018

Geralt said:
amazing that you inserted 'circumcision' and jumped around other scripture passages to fit and support your idea. we dont do such acrobatic hermeneutics.

No. It's called, you are not reading the context because you do not like what the context says because you prefer a belief that waters down the real consequences of sin.

Again, if you do not believe the apostles fought against "Circumcision Salvationism," I challenge you to read Acts of the Apostles 15:1, Acts of the Apostles 15:5, Acts of the Apostles 15:24. Then read Galatians 2:3, Galatians 5:2, Galatians 6:15, Romans 3:1, Romans 4:9-12, and 1 Corinthians 7:18-19.

Besides, "Circumcision Salvationism" is not the only clues that Paul was talking about the Old Law when he talked unfavorably about the "Law" or when he appear to speak against "works." In some cases, all you have to do is just read the same chapter, in other cases, it is the previous chapter to get the context that Paul is talking about the Old Law. In fact, point to me a verse that talks about law and or works, I will point to you the context about how this is in reference to the Old Law. Paul could NOT have been talking about the commands of Jesus because if he did, he would have condemned himself. How so?

Well, Paul says,
"If any man teach otherwise, and consent not to wholesome words, even the words of our Lord Jesus Christ, and to the doctrine which is according to godliness; He is proud, knowing nothing," (1 Timothy 6:3-4).

James says God resists the proud and gives grace to the humble (James 4:6).

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Emli said:
You are misusing that verse.

What you're saying makes no sense, for how can one be born-again without first believing and repenting? I was born-again after having believed, not before.

2 Corinthians 7:10 states that godly sorrow leads to repentance, which leads to salvation. Also read Acts 2:38 which clearly tells us that repentance comes before receiving the Holy Spirit.
And if you want to hold on to your odd interpretation of Galatians 5:22, at least understand that we don't have to be born-again yet in order for the Holy Spirit to work in us, as He calls us and draws us near to Him before we are saved. John 6:44 And then you can circle back to what I wrote above and understand how that works.

Dead people cannot do anything much less believe.
“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” (Ephesians 2:1)

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2018

Geralt said:
amazing that you inserted 'circumcision' and jumped around other scripture passages to fit and support your idea. we dont do such acrobatic hermeneutics.

There is a difference between the works of faith vs. the works of the Law:

Works of Faith:

"Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;" (1 Thessalonians 1:3).

"Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfill all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:" (2 Thessalonians 1:11).

"Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone." (James 2:17).

"Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works." (James 2:18).

"Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?" (James 2:22).

"Ye see then how that by works a man is justified, and not by faith only." (James 2:24).

"For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also." (James 2:26).

Works of the Law:
(i.e. the works of the Law of Moses):

"Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;" (Romans 9:32).

"Knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified." (Galatians 2:16).

"This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:2).

"He therefore that ministereth to you the Spirit, and worketh miracles among you, doeth he it by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?" (Galatians 3:5).

"For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse: for it is written, Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things which are written in the book of the law to do them." (Galatians 3:10).

What "book of the Law" existed at that time?
The New Testament Scriptures?
No. This was the Torah!!!

Anyways, I hope these verses help;
And may God's love shine upon you today.

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Jason0047 said:
As I said, I believe God awakens a person to His drawing in order to choose Him or not. I understand what you believe, but you have to make your case with Scripture and you have to explain those verses I posted to you before on our free will choice concerning God. Anyways, here are a few more verses for you to consider.

"For the grace of God that bringeth salvation hath appeared to all men," (Titus 2:11).

"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me." (John 12:32).

“[Jesus] is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.” - 1 John 2:2

"Jesus tasted death for everyone." - Hebrews 2:9

There are false prophets who deny the Lord had bought them.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1).

Not sure how this verse works with your belief.

Grace actually saves sinners. It doesn't arrange for the self-righteous to save themselves.

ExTiff · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
If he forgave their sins, they wouldn't die and go to Hell.

What makes you think dying proves everyone goes to hell with their sins unforgiven? What do you think was actually achieved by Christ on the cross then?

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

ExTiff said:
What makes you think dying proves everyone goes to hell with their sins unforgiven? What do you think was actually achieved by Christ on the cross then?

Scripture says so.
“He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him.” (John 3:36)

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
“Now the works of the flesh are manifest, which are these; Adultery, fornication, uncleanness, lasciviousness, Idolatry, witchcraft, hatred, variance, emulations, wrath, strife, seditions, heresies, Envyings, murders, drunkenness, revellings, and such like: of the which I tell you before, as I have also told you in time past, that they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.” (Galatians 5:19–21)

Find anything in a person before the new birth that would choose the real Christ.

No. Galatians 5:19-21 was said to the believer!!! Just read the context. He says to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (See Galatians 5:16). Then in verse 19, Paul says what this lusts of the flesh is!!!! Paul is writing to believers and not unbelievers when he tells them to walk in the Spirit so that they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Again, we see similar thing written by Paul elsewhere.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Why would Paul tell them to do this if they were to just automatically do this at some point? It makes no sense.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
Grace actually saves sinners. It doesn't arrange for the self-righteous to save themselves.

Less opinion and more Scripture please.

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Less opinion and more Scripture please.

Define grace according to any Greek dictionary.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2018

@Dave L:

There are false prophets who deny the Lord had bought them.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1).

Not sure how this verse works with your belief.

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Jason0047 said:
No. Galatians 5:19-21 was said to the believer!!! Just read the context. He says to walk in the Spirit and you will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh (See Galatians 5:16). Then in verse 19, Paul says what this lusts of the flesh is!!!! Paul is writing to believers and not unbelievers when he tells them to walk in the Spirit so that they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh. Again, we see similar thing written by Paul elsewhere.

"Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God." (2 Corinthians 7:1).

Why would Paul tell them to do this if they were to just automatically do this at some point? It makes no sense.

But what did you have before you had the Spirit? Only the flesh that loves sin.

Emli · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
Dead people cannot do anything much less believe.
“And you hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins;” (Ephesians 2:1)

That verse says nothing that will support your beliefs. Why wouldn't the quickening be "believe then repent then be born-again" which would be in harmony with every other verse about salvation in the Bible? There is nothing in that entire chapter that supports your statement, but in fact Ephesians 2:8 supports the opposite. It is by grace we are saved through faith, meaning that faith comes before grace and salvation.

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
Define grace according to any Greek dictionary.

Sorry. Unless you are the apostle Paul, you are not a Greek expert. Nobody today is.

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Jason0047 said:
@Dave L:

There are false prophets who deny the Lord had bought them.

"But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction." (2 Peter 2:1).

Not sure how this verse works with your belief.

These were kin to the false prophets of old that God bought out of Egypt. They weren't saved.

Dave L · Oct 1, 2018

Jason0047 said:
Sorry. Unless you are the apostle Paul, you are not a Greek expert. Nobody today is.

So all the bible translators were wrong an we have no bible?

Bible Highlighter · Oct 1, 2018

Dave L said:
But what did you have before you had the Spirit? Only the flesh that loves sin.

Okay. You are not getting it. I want to just stop for a moment. Please read Galatians 5 and ask yourself is Paul talking to believers when he writes Galatians 5:16? If so, then he is telling them to walk in the Spirit so that they will not fulfill the lusts of the flesh.

We are not saved by works?

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