IS IT SIN TO BREAK THE 10 COMMANDMENTS? (Yep!)

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Of course a new covenant has a new mediator and it has a new terms (instead of circumcision we have Yeshua's blood). Also since there is no Temple, other things have also changed.

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But you implied before that all the laws are the same between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. This is not the case?

Saint Steven said:

Who is "we"? You are in sole possession. No one else is. Right?

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Steve, give it up. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. He has been shown how the theology is wrong. Leave it at that and let the Lord handle it.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

We agree more than we disagree IMO regarding you post above. My only question to you from your post above is WHAT do you consider is "the law given to us by Christ" and HOW do we show we follow it?? BTW, there is nothing wrong with circumcision per se but it will not provide eternal salvation. That is what Paul meant.

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Right, but look very carefully how Paul ties in the problem with "Circumcision Salvationism." Paul relates this to how if we seek to be justified by the law, we have fallen from grace.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4).

Which law?

The law to believe on Jesus? (See 1 John 3:23).

No.

The law to repent? (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).

No.

The law of faith? (Romans 3:27).

No.

This would be the Law of Moses because circumcision was only a part of the Law of Moses. This means that the weekly Sabbath is not something that justifies us under the New Covenant because it is no longer a binding command for believers. For we see plenty of clear commands for the Sabbath in the OT, but none of these clear commands ever appear in the NT. This is important because Scripture says we are under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. We are under the Law of Christ and not the Law of Moses. For there is a change in the Law according Hebrews 7:12.

LoveGodsWord said:

Steve you seem to like making things up by playing with straw when you have no scripture to share. If your walking along a narrow road how does one see when their lamp has run out of oil?

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Wow. Now you are mixing scriptural metaphors. And implying that the narrow road is walking in darkness.

Someone has defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over again, while expecting different results.

With that in mind, why should I post any scriptures? You will just claim that what I post is not "God's WORD", as you have done countless times already.

Copperhead said:

Steve, give it up. You can lead a horse to water, but you cannot make him drink. He has been shown how the theology is wrong. Leave it at that and let the Lord handle it.

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These folks are sheep stealers. I stand between them and the flock.

1 Samuel 17:34-35
But David said to Saul, “Your servant has been keeping his father’s sheep. When a lion or a bear came and carried off a sheep from the flock, 35 I went after it, struck it and rescued the sheep from its mouth. When it turned on me, I seized it by its hair, struck it and killed it.

A Study on the Word “Law”:

This shows us that the word “Law” is in reference to the Law of Moses and not exactly all of God’s laws in general that are still in effect today).

1. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).
   
   
2. You are not able to be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39).
   
   
3. Certain men are subverting your souls saying that we must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses, of which we gave you no such commandment (Acts 15:24).
   
   
4. By the deeds of the Law no flesh shall be justified in his sight (Romans 3:20).
   
   
5. Now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested (Romans 3:21).
   
   
6. You are dead to the Law by the body of Christ (Romans 7:4).
   
   
7. We are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6).
   
   
8. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).
   
   
9. He that loves another has fulfilled the law.” (Romans 13:8).
   
   
10. Love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:10).
    
    
11. A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16).
    
    
12. “I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.” (Galatians 2:19).
    
    
13. “No man is justified by the law in the sight of God,” (Galatians 3:11).
    
    
14. “Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?” (Galatians 4:21) “ “Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which represents Hagar.” (Galatians 4:24). “For Hagar is from mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and she (Hagar) is in bondage with her children.” (Galatians 4:25).
    
    
15. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4). “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2). Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (Galatians 5:1). See James 2:12, the law of liberty (Which is a different kind of law).
    
    
16. All the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shalt love thy neighbour as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14).
    
    
17. But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law.” (Galatians 5:18).
    
    
18. ““For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.” (Galatians 6:13).
    
    
19. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Hebrews 7:12).
    
    
20. ”He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:28-29).

Bonus Verses:

1. Law of Liberty is a New Covenant Law (Letting us know that it is a different Law than the Law of Moses): “So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” (James 2:12).
   
   
2. Circumcision (that is a part of the Old Law) was considered bondage:.."And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: (Galatians 2:4). “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:” (Galatians 2:3).

Jason0047 said:

But you implied before that all the laws are the same between the Old Covenant and the New Covenant. This is not the case?

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No I never said that. Certain things have been kept...the baby has not been thrown out with the bath water
Shabbat shalom

Jason0047 said:

Right, but look very carefully how Paul ties in the problem with "Circumcision Salvationism." Paul relates this to how if we seek to be justified by the law, we have fallen from grace.

"Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace" (Galatians 5:4).

Which law?

The law to believe on Jesus? (See 1 John 3:23).

No.

The law to repent? (Acts of the Apostles 17:30).

No.

The law of faith? (Romans 3:27).

No.

This would be the Law of Moses because circumcision was only a part of the Law of Moses. This means that the weekly Sabbath is not something that justifies us under the New Covenant because it is no longer a binding command for believers. For we see plenty of clear commands for the Sabbath in the OT, but none of these clear commands ever appear in the NT. This is important because Scripture says we are under the New Covenant and not the Old Covenant. We are under the Law of Christ and not the Law of Moses. For there is a change in the Law according Hebrews 7:12.

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Justification and salvation are 2 different things. The 10 Commandments WERE specified in the NT. Again, you keep saying the "law of Christ". What is that to you and HOW do you show you follow it? Yes, there would be changes to the Law regarding Hebrews 7:12. However, those changes are only in respect to the priesthood.

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

No I never said that. Certain things have been kept...the baby has not been thrown out with the bath water
Shabbat shalom

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I only got that impression because you said,


Source:
Post #587

Yeshua HaDerekh said:

Justification and salvation are 2 different things.

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Not true, my friend.

This is a part of salvation. For if we did not have "Justification" we would not be saved.

For can you have salvation without this verse?

"Who was delivered for our offences, and was raised again for our justification." (Romans 4:25).

Jesus was raised again in order to declare us righteous if we believe on Him for salvation by faith.

17 "And not as it was by one that sinned, so is the gift: for the judgment was by one to condemnation, but the free gift is of many offences unto justification.
18 For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)
19 Therefore as by the offence of one judgment came upon all men to condemnation; even so by the righteousness of one the free gift came upon all men unto justification of life." (Romans 5:17-19).

"That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord." (Romans 5:21).

"Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him." (Romans 5:9)

"Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:" (Romans 5:1).

"For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." (2 Corinthians 5:21).

"To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation." (2 Corinthians 5:19).

You said:

The 10 Commandments WERE specified in the NT.

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After the cross: Nine out of the Ten commandments were specified or repeated clearly but the command for the Sabbath was not repeated. Not even during Christ's ministry was there ever a command given for a believer to keep the Sabbath. The New Covenant went into effect officially with Christ's death. So we should expect to see a clear command (like from Exodus 20) about keeping the Sabbath within the New Testament (But it is simply not there). In fact, in none of Paul's letters does Paul tell the Gentiles to keep the Sabbath command and he wrote the majority of the New Testament. On the contrary, Paul said in two places that we are not under the Sabbath. Colossians 2:16-17, Paul says we are not to let anyone judge us according to Sabbaths. Now, some of you have said that the word "Sabbaths" here is not in reference to the weekly Sabbath. However, this is false. How so? Well, for one, the pattern is festivals (Which are yearly), new moons (Which are monthly), and sabbaths (Which can be weekly and yearly). This pattern can be seen even in the Old Testament Scriptures, as well.

Two, the word "Sabbaths" can refer to the weekly Sabbath according to the OT.

14 "Speak thou also unto the children of Israel, saying, Verily my sabbaths ye shall keep: for it is a sign between me and you throughout your generations; that ye may know that I am the LORD that doth sanctify you.
15 Ye shall keep the sabbath therefore; for it is holy unto you: every one that defileth it shall surely be put to death: for whosoever doeth any work therein, that soul shall be cut off from among his people.
16 Six days may work be done; but in the seventh is the sabbath of rest, holy to the LORD: whosoever doeth any work in the sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death." (Exodus 31:14-16).

You said:

Again, you keep saying the "law of Christ". What is that to you and HOW do you show you follow it?

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"Bear ye one another's burdens,
and so fulfil the law of Christ." (Galatians 6:2).

The context:

"...if another believer is overcome by some sin, you who are godly should gently and humbly help that person back onto the right path." (Galatians 6:1) (NLT).

In essence it is loving your neighbor (Which is the 2nd greatest command).

You said:

Yes, there would be changes to the Law regarding Hebrews 7:12. However, those changes are only in respect to the priesthood.

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While it is true that the Law has changed as per Hebrews 7:12, it is not true that the changes are only in respect to the priesthood.

The Old Covenant says this about circumcision:
"And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant." (Genesis 17:14).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about circumcision:
"Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing." (Galatians 5:2).


The Old Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
32 "And while the children of Israel were in the wilderness, they found a man that gathered sticks upon the sabbath day.
33 And they that found him gathering sticks brought him unto Moses and Aaron, and unto all the congregation.
34 And they put him in ward, because it was not declared what should be done to him.
35 And the Lord said unto Moses, The man shall be surely put to death: all the congregation shall stone him with stones without the camp.
36 And all the congregation brought him without the camp, and stoned him with stones, and he died; as the Lord commanded Moses." (Numbers 15:32-36).

Yet, the New Covenant says this about the Sabbath:
"Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the sabbath days:" (Colossians 2:16).

10 "You are trying to earn favor with God by observing certain days or months or seasons or years.
11 I fear for you. Perhaps all my hard work with you was for nothing."
(Galatians 4:10-11) (NLT). Note: Some in your camp have said this is talking about astrology or something; But nowhere is that found in the context. The actual context is the law (of which we can see described in verses 21-26). It essentially says the Old Law is bondage.

21 Tell me, you who want to live under the law, do you know what the law actually says?
22 The Scriptures say that Abraham had two sons, one from his slave wife and one from his freeborn wife.
23 The son of the slave wife was born in a human attempt to bring about the fulfillment of God’s promise. But the son of the freeborn wife was born as God’s own fulfillment of his promise.
24 These two women serve as an illustration of God’s two covenants. The first woman, Hagar, represents Mount Sinai where people received the law that enslaved them.
25 And now Jerusalem is just like Mount Sinai in Arabia, because she and her children live in slavery to the law.
26 But the other woman, Sarah, represents the heavenly Jerusalem. She is the free woman, and she is our mother."
(Galatians 4:21-26).


The Old Covenant says you cannot eat unclean animals for they are unclean:
3 "Thou shalt not eat any abominable thing.
4 These are the beasts which ye shall eat: the ox, the sheep, and the goat,
5 The hart, and the roebuck, and the fallow deer, and the wild goat, and the pygarg, and the wild ox, and the chamois.
6 And every beast that parteth the hoof, and cleaveth the cleft into two claws, and cheweth the cud among the beasts, that ye shall eat.
7 Nevertheless these ye shall not eat of them that chew the cud, or of them that divide the cloven hoof; as the camel, and the hare, and the coney: for they chew the cud, but divide not the hoof; therefore they are unclean unto you.
8 And the swine, because it divideth the hoof, yet cheweth not the cud, it is unclean unto you: ye shall not eat of their flesh, nor touch their dead carcase.
9 These ye shall eat of all that are in the waters: all that have fins and scales shall ye eat:
10 And whatsoever hath not fins and scales ye may not eat; it is unclean unto you." (Deuteronomy 14:3-10).

Yet, the New Testament says this about eating animals:
4 "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
(1 Timothy 4:4-5).

9 On the morrow, as they went on their journey, and drew nigh unto the city, Peter went up upon the housetop to pray about the sixth hour:
10 And he became very hungry, and would have eaten: but while they made ready, he fell into a trance,
11 And saw heaven opened, and a certain vessel descending upon him, as it had been a great sheet knit at the four corners, and let down to the earth:
12 Wherein were all manner of four footed beasts of the earth, and wild beasts, and creeping things, and fowls of the air.
13 And there came a voice to him, Rise, Peter; kill, and eat.
14 But Peter said, Not so, Lord; for I have never eaten any thing that is common or unclean.
15 And the voice spake unto him again the second time, What God hath cleansed, that call not thou common." (Acts of the Apostles 10:9-15).


The Old Testament says this about vengeance or justice:
17 "And he that killeth any man shall surely be put to death.
18 And he that killeth a beast shall make it good; beast for beast.
19 And if a man cause a blemish in his neighbour; as he hath done, so shall it be done to him;
20 Breach for breach, eye for eye, tooth for tooth: as he hath caused a blemish in a man, so shall it be done to him again." (Leviticus 24:17-20).

Yet, the New Testament says this about vengeance or justice:
38 "Ye have heard that it hath been said, An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth:
39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also."
(Matthew 5:38-39).


The Old Testament says this in regards to your enemies:

"Now go and smite Amalek, and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass." (1 Samuel 15:3) (cf. with Deuteronomy 25:19).

Yet, the New Testament says to do this in regards to your enemies:

"But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;" (Matthew 5:44).

"Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head." (Romans 12:20).


The Old Testament says this about the punishment for adultery:

"And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death. " (Leviticus 20:10).

22 "If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.
23 If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;
24 Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you." (Deuteronomy 22:22-24).

Yet, the New Testament says this about the punishment of adultery:

4 "They say unto him, Master, this woman was taken in adultery, in the very act.
5 Now Moses in the law commanded us, that such should be stoned: but what sayest thou?
6 This they said, tempting him, that they might have to accuse him. But Jesus stooped down, and with his finger wrote on the ground, as though he heard them not.
7 So when they continued asking him, he lifted up himself, and said unto them, He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone at her."
(John 8:4-7).

10 "...he said unto her, Woman, where are those thine accusers? hath no man condemned thee?
11 She said, No man, Lord. And Jesus said unto her, Neither do I condemn thee: go, and sin no more." (John 8:10-11).

Jason0047 said:

A Study on the Word “Law”:

This shows us that the word “Law” is in reference to the Law of Moses and not exactly all of God’s laws in general that are still in effect today).

1. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).
   
   
2. You are not able to be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39).
   
   
3. Certain men are subverting your souls saying that we must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses, of which we gave you no such commandment (Acts 15:24).
   
   
4. By the deeds of the Law no flesh shall be justified in his sight (Romans 3:20).
   
   
5. Now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested (Romans 3:21).
   
   
6. You are dead to the Law by the body of Christ (Romans 7:4).
   
   
7. We are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6).
   
   
8. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).
   
   
9. He that loves another has fulfilled the law.” (Romans 13:8).
   
   
10. Love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:10).
    
    
11. A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16).
    
    
12. “I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.” (Galatians 2:19).
    
    
13. “No man is justified by the law in the sight of God,” (Galatians 3:11).
    
    
14. “Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?” (Galatians 4:21) “ “Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which represents Hagar.” (Galatians 4:24). “For Hagar is from mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and she (Hagar) is in bondage with her children.” (Galatians 4:25).
    
    
15. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4). “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2). Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (Galatians 5:1). See James 2:12, the law of liberty (Which is a different kind of law).
    
    
16. All the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shalt love thy neighbour as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14).
    
    
17. But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law.” (Galatians 5:18).
    
    
18. ““For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.” (Galatians 6:13).
    
    
19. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Hebrews 7:12).
    
    
20. ”He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:28-29).

Bonus Verses:

1. Law of Liberty is a New Covenant Law (Letting us know that it is a different Law than the Law of Moses): “So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” (James 2:12).
   
   
2. Circumcision (that is a part of the Old Law) was considered bondage:.."And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: (Galatians 2:4). “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:” (Galatians 2:3).

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You have what is often termed the legalistic law, and the moral law. The legalistic law could be faultlessly obeyed(Phil3:6 NIV) It was the moral law that could not be faultlessly obeyed. Therefore, if there was no moral law, you could be justified by law.

Archippus said:

You have what is often termed the legalistic law, and the moral law. The legalistic law could be faultlessly obeyed (Phil3:6 NIV)

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The verse could potentially be talking about that.
So you will not get an argument from me on that point.

You said:

It was the moral law that could not be faultlessly obeyed. Therefore, if there was no moral law, you could be justified by law.

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This is simply not true.

After a person accepts Christ, they can by the power of Christ working in them overcome sin that relates to the moral law. If a person teaches otherwise, then they are teaching that we can be slaves to our sin with the thinking we are still saved (Which is a turning God's grace into a license of immorality as spoken of in Jude 1:4). For if what you say is true, then we can be axe murdering rapists and or we can abuse children and still be saved as long as we have a belief on Jesus? My guess is that you will probably say... "no." It's because you have a certain standard of holiness that defines a saved person. The Bible also defines those who are saved by keeping a minimum standard of holiness after being saved by God's grace. Paul lists certain sins that can keep a person from not inheriting the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body can be cast into hellfire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if we do not help the poor, we can be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). John says if you hate your brother, no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).

Jason0047 said:

The verse could potentially be talking about that.
So you will not get an argument from me on that point.



This is simply not true.

After a person accepts Christ, they can by the power of Christ working in them overcome sin that relates to the moral law. If a person teaches otherwise, then they are teaching that we can be slaves to our sin with the thinking we are still saved (Which is a turning God's grace into a license of immorality as spoken of in Jude 1:4). For if what you say is true, then we can be axe murdering rapists and or we can abuse children and still be saved as long as we have a belief on Jesus? My guess is that you will probably say... "no." It's because you have a certain standard of holiness that defines a saved person. The Bible also defines those who are saved by keeping a minimum standard of holiness after being saved by God's grace. Paul lists certain sins that can keep a person from not inheriting the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body can be cast into hellfire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if we do not help the poor, we can be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). John says if you hate your brother, no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).

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You can only be justified by law if you faultlessly obey it(James2:10&Gal3:10&11. There is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to the moral law that can justify you. You either have to be perfect in your flesh, or no justification according to obeying the moral law. Saul the Pharisee could faultlessly obey the law of Moses, apart from the moral law. It was the moral law which condemned him(Rom ch7)

Archippus said:

You can only be justified by law if you faultlessly obey it(James2:10&Gal3:10&11. There is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to the moral law that can justify you. You either have to be perfect in your flesh, or no justification according to obeying the moral law. Saul the Pharisee could faultlessly obey the law of Moses, apart from the moral law. It was the moral law which condemned him(Rom ch7)

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It is true that Romans 7:14-24 was Paul speaking as a Pharisee struggling to keep the Law. But what was his problem? Do the Pharisees believe in Jesus? No. His problem is that he made salvation all about trying to be saved by "Law Alone" without God's grace and mercy.

Romans 8:3-4 says that Jesus condemned sin in the flesh (the Old Law) so that the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the righteous aspect or part of the Law - which is to love your neighbor) might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh (sin) but after the Spirit (Which would include the fruits of the Spirit). How can the righteous aspect of the Law (like loving your neighbor) be fulfilled in us Christians if we really cannot do that?

Your theory that we have to be perfect in our flesh our whole lives even before we believe is false (if that is what you are suggesting). Jesus wipes the slate clean of our past sin when we seek his forgiveness and believe on His death and resurrection for salvation. For we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But we are also saved by the process of Sanctification, too (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). For if the work of the Lord done through us did not play a part in our salvation, then you can live like the devil and just believe on Jesus. But surely you don't believe that, right?

The Pharisees could not faultlessly obey the Law of Moses, either. Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 says they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy. Jesus did not say... "Aw, I know you Pharisee guys cannot keep the Moral Law... it's not your fault...." Did Jesus say that? No, no. Most certainly not! Jesus was upset with them that they didn't keep the Moral Law and he even called them hypocrites because of it.

Archippus said:

You can only be justified by law if you faultlessly obey it(James2:10&Gal3:10&11. There is no imaginary pass mark of obedience to the moral law that can justify you. You either have to be perfect in your flesh, or no justification according to obeying the moral law. Saul the Pharisee could faultlessly obey the law of Moses, apart from the moral law. It was the moral law which condemned him(Rom ch7)

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Jason0047 said:

The verse could potentially be talking about that.
So you will not get an argument from me on that point.



This is simply not true.

After a person accepts Christ, they can by the power of Christ working in them overcome sin that relates to the moral law. If a person teaches otherwise, then they are teaching that we can be slaves to our sin with the thinking we are still saved (Which is a turning God's grace into a license of immorality as spoken of in Jude 1:4). For if what you say is true, then we can be axe murdering rapists and or we can abuse children and still be saved as long as we have a belief on Jesus? My guess is that you will probably say... "no." It's because you have a certain standard of holiness that defines a saved person. The Bible also defines those who are saved by keeping a minimum standard of holiness after being saved by God's grace. Paul lists certain sins that can keep a person from not inheriting the Kingdom of God (See Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9-10). Jesus says if you do not forgive, you will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15). Jesus says if you look upon a woman in lust, your whole body can be cast into hellfire (See Matthew 5:28-30). Jesus says if we do not help the poor, we can be cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46). John says if you hate your brother, no eternal life abides in you (1 John 3:15).

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May I ask what you mean by the following paragraph?

The Bible also defines those who are saved by keeping a minimum standard of holiness after being saved by God's grace.

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Secondly, what do you mean by the phrase, 'moral law'?

Jason0047 said:

It is true that Romans 7:14-24 was Paul speaking as a Pharisee struggling to keep the Law. But what was his problem? Do the Pharisees believe in Jesus? No. His problem is that he made salvation all about trying to be saved by "Law Alone" without God's grace and mercy.

Romans 8:3-4 says that Jesus condemned sin in the flesh (the Old Law) so that the righteousness of the Law (i.e. the righteous aspect or part of the Law - which is to love your neighbor) might be fulfilled in us who walk not after the flesh (sin) but after the Spirit (Which would include the fruits of the Spirit). How can the righteous aspect of the Law (like loving your neighbor) be fulfilled in us Christians if we really cannot do that?

Your theory that we have to be perfect in our flesh our whole lives even before we believe is false (if that is what you are suggesting). Jesus wipes the slate clean of our past sin when we seek his forgiveness and believe on His death and resurrection for salvation. For we are initially and ultimately saved by God's grace. But we are also saved by the process of Sanctification, too (See 2 Thessalonians 2:13). For if the work of the Lord done through us did not play a part in our salvation, then you can live like the devil and just believe on Jesus. But surely you don't believe that, right?

The Pharisees could not faultlessly obey the Law of Moses, either. Matthew 23:23 and Luke 11:42 says they ignored the weightier matters of the Law like love, faith, justice, and mercy. Jesus did not say... "Aw, I know you Pharisee guys cannot keep the Moral Law... it's not your fault...." Did Jesus say that? No, no. Most certainly not! Jesus was upset with them that they didn't keep the Moral Law and he even called them hypocrites because of it.

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I agree that Saul the Pharisee tried to be justified/saved by law alone.
It is not a theory that you cannot be justified by law un less you faultlessly obey it, it is a biblical fact.
I have not suggested anything about prior to entering a saved state.
Please give me an example of a non moral law which the pharisees failed to obey

Jason0047 said:

A Study on the Word “Law”:

This shows us that the word “Law” is in reference to the Law of Moses and not exactly all of God’s laws in general that are still in effect today).

1. For the law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." (John 1:17).
   
   
2. You are not able to be justified by the Law of Moses (Acts 13:39).
   
   
3. Certain men are subverting your souls saying that we must be circumcised and keep the Law of Moses, of which we gave you no such commandment (Acts 15:24).
   
   
4. By the deeds of the Law no flesh shall be justified in his sight (Romans 3:20).
   
   
5. Now the righteousness of God without the Law is manifested (Romans 3:21).
   
   
6. You are dead to the Law by the body of Christ (Romans 7:4).
   
   
7. We are delivered from the law (Romans 7:6).
   
   
8. The law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.” (Romans 8:2).
   
   
9. He that loves another has fulfilled the law.” (Romans 13:8).
   
   
10. Love is the fulfilling of the law (Romans 13:10).
    
    
11. A man is not justified by the works of the law, but by the faith of Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ, that we might be justified by the faith of Christ, and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no flesh be justified.” (Galatians 2:16).
    
    
12. “I through the law am dead to the law, that I might live unto God.” (Galatians 2:19).
    
    
13. “No man is justified by the law in the sight of God,” (Galatians 3:11).
    
    
14. “Tell me, you that desire to be under the law, do you not hear the law?” (Galatians 4:21) “ “Which things are an allegory: for these are the two covenants; the one from the mount Sinai, which gendereth to bondage, which represents Hagar.” (Galatians 4:24). “For Hagar is from mount Sinai in Arabia, and answereth to Jerusalem which now is, and she (Hagar) is in bondage with her children.” (Galatians 4:25).
    
    
15. “Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; you are fallen from grace.” (Galatians 5:4). “Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if you be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing.” (Galatians 5:2). Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ has made us free, and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage (Galatians 5:1). See James 2:12, the law of liberty (Which is a different kind of law).
    
    
16. All the law is fulfilled in one word, even in this; You shalt love thy neighbour as yourself.” (Galatians 5:14).
    
    
17. But if you be led of the Spirit, you are not under the law.” (Galatians 5:18).
    
    
18. ““For neither they themselves who are circumcised keep the law; but desire to have you circumcised, that they may glory in your flesh.” (Galatians 6:13).
    
    
19. For the priesthood being changed, there is made of necessity a change also of the law.” (Hebrews 7:12).
    
    
20. ”He that despised Moses' law died without mercy under two or three witnesses: Of how much sorer punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite unto the Spirit of grace?” (Hebrews 10:28-29).

Bonus Verses:

1. Law of Liberty is a New Covenant Law (Letting us know that it is a different Law than the Law of Moses): “So speak you, and so do, as they that shall be judged by the law of liberty.” (James 2:12).
   
   
2. Circumcision (that is a part of the Old Law) was considered bondage:.."And that because of false brethren unawares brought in, who came in privily to spy out our liberty which we have in Christ Jesus, that they might bring us into bondage: (Galatians 2:4). “But neither Titus, who was with me, being a Greek, was compelled to be circumcised:” (Galatians 2:3).

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It seems your trying to split the phrase, 'the law', into two separate definitions. One is the moral law, which I assume is the ten commandments. The second is the law of Moses, i.e., the works of the law. So depending on the context, the first or second definition would be used. Is that what you are saying?

If so, what do you think Paul is saying below.

Romans 3:20
Because by the works of the Law no flesh will be justified in His sight; for through the Law comes the knowledge of sin.

klutedavid said:

May I ask what you mean by the following paragraph?

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Jason0047 said:

The Bible also defines those who are saved by keeping a minimum standard of holiness after being saved by God's grace.

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Looking upon a woman in lust can cause a believer's whole body to be cast into hell fire (Matthew 5:28-30), If a believer does not forgive, they will not be forgiven (Matthew 6:15), a believer can be condemned by their words (Matthew 12:37), a believer can be like the unprofitable servant that was cast into outer darkness where there is weeping and gnashing of teeth (Matthew 25:30), A believer who refuses to help the poor is cast into everlasting fire (Matthew 25:31-46), the believer who puts his hand to the plow in preaching the gospel, and looks back is not fit for the kingdom of God (Luke 9:62), a believer who does certain sins like murder, theft, adultery, coveting, etc. will not inherit the kingdom of God (Galatians 5:19-21, 1 Corinthians 6:9), the believer who hates his brother has no eternal life abiding in them (1 John 3:15).

You said:

Secondly, what do you mean by the phrase, 'moral law'?

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The dictionary says:

The Moral Law:

A general rule of right living; especially : such a rule or group of rules conceived as universal and unchanging and as having the sanction of God's will, of conscience, of man's moral nature, or of natural justice as revealed to human reason.

Source:
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/moral law

Scripture alludes to the Moral Law here:

"For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:" (Romans 2:14).

In other words, the Moral Law is any law that men know to be instinctively true that deals with right and wrong (like murder, theft, abuse of children, etc.) without any kind of written law telling them that such things are wrong. It is built into their conscience of knowing to do good and right. Granted, sin can effect a person's built in hardwiring of having the Moral Law within themselves. Sin can defile a person and corrupt them. But Jesus can break the chains and heal any who have been tainted by sin and make them new creations in His image whereby they do not have to be slaves to sin. For 1 John 3:8 says Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil. This would be the works of the devil within a believer's life. For Romans 13:14 says put ye on the Lord Jesus Christ and fulfill not the lusts of the flesh. For Galatians 5:24 says that they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts.