Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

Davy · Jul 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
You only imagine that one event lasts the full time to the next event. I don't agree. For example, the 5th trumpet, first woe comes and finished. It lasts 5 months. There are no words telling us those 5 months takes us right up to the 6th trumpet. I am convinced God gives TIME between events to see of people repent.

The flow of the Rev.11 events is like cooking. When you put the food in the oven to cook, it doesn't mean you're still mixing the ingredients. The ingredients appear starting in Rev.9:12 when the 6th trumpet - 2n woe period begins. And then it's fully cooked by the time of the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe.

3 Last Trumpet - Woe Periods: Sequential Events:
It's one of the few Scripture sections in our Lord Jesus' Revelation that we can count on all the events being in sequential order.

As an example - NOT saying it will be this way, but an example of how it could be:
....

One must be very careful with speculation, since it can easily lead on astray.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

13 And the sixth angel sounded...

The 5th trumpet event happens, then John writes that it is PAST. But does that mean there is no time between its end and the start of the next? John just writes "hereafter."

All we can prove is that the 5th trumpet comes, and it is followed with some unknown time by the 6th trumpet. We don't know the time between. What we do know is that the first six trumpet judgments must come in the first 42 months of the 70th week.

Again there are no words written to prove that the 6th trumpet army that will murder a third of the population will last all the way to even 11:1. Perhaps it ends before the man of sin enters Jerusalem as shown in Rev. 11:1.

The third woe is over course tied to the 7th trumpet - but is the 7th trumpet the actual woe? No, I don't think so. The 7th trumpet is the alarm bell for Michael to go after Satan to take him down. and it is written "woe" on the earth because Satan is very angry!

Therefore I disagree.

You agree with madness then, because silly questions like, "but is the 7th trumpet the actual woe?" has nothing to do with Biblical speculation when trying to interpret Scripture.

Davy · Jul 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
What you are missing is that God is not trying to fit HIS timing into our actual time of the earth's one year journey around the sun.

Sure He is. God knows what the difference is between a lunar year and a solar year. That is how He marked when Israel was to have their feasts and holy days.

For prophecy, God uses a 360 days year. 360 divided by 12 equals 30. God uses a 30 day month. 30 times 42 equals 1260. You will have to ask God why He gave some events in months and others in days. Could it be that when He gives it in days, it will be accurate to the very day?

I know why He gave the prophetic events in Rev.11 in months and in days. Depended on 'who'... He was giving it about. Christ's elect are children of the day...

1 Thess 5:5
5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.
KJV

The children of darkness would be represented by what time reckoning then? By the lunar calendar, months.

Davy · Jul 31, 2018

iamlamad said:
You cannot prove either of these statements with the word.
I can prove the 7th trumpet is the midpoint: the fleeing begins right after the 7th trumpet, not the 6th.

You cannot prove the 7th trumpet is the midpoint, nor that the fleeing begins after the 7th trumpet.

Nor can you disprove the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe is the midpoint, as I have proven it is.

Rev 9:12-19
12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.
13 And the sixth angel sounded, and I heard a voice from the four horns of the golden altar which is before God,
14 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

At that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period, the four angels bound at Euphrates are loosed. Euphrates was the most northern border God assigned to early Israel. Here it is used as a symbol for the border between God's people and Satan's host being brought down, with their being allowed to cross to attack God's people. The attack by the Rev.9 locust army is spiritual, because they are told not to hurt any green thing, but only those men who have not God's seal, and that they cannot kill them, but only sting them for five months.

The idea of their being prepared for "an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year," is to mark a specific time of their attack upon God's people at the end. It is a symbolic time marker for the start of the time of great tribulation. Once again, the slaying is spiritual, not physical.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them.
17 And thus I saw the horses in the vision, and them that sat on them, having breastplates of fire, and of jacinth, and brimstone: and the heads of the horses were as the heads of lions; and out of their mouths issued fire and smoke and brimstone.
18 By these three was the third part of men killed, by the fire, and by the smoke, and by the brimstone, which issued out of their mouths.
19 For their power is in their mouth, and in their tails: for their tails were like unto serpents, and had heads, and with them they do hurt.
KJV

Their power is in their mouths. The meaning is they attack using LIES, not literal military weapons of war.

After this the Rev.10 chapter is parenthetical, but Rev.11 is not.
Rev.11:1 continues the events of the 6th trumpet - 2 woe, all the way to the event when all kingdoms become Christ's on the 7th trumpet.

iamlamad · Aug 1, 2018

Davy said:
I already gave you Biblical proof of how the Revelation events are not in the order you're trying to put them. It's obvious the time of the Lamb's wrath on the 6th Seal does not occur until the vials, and the trumpets and vials aren't even given yet at the 6th seal. If you want to stick to the false order you've been taught, then go to. I don't care if you want to be deceived.

I keep to the events and what occurs on them, not number scratching in Revelation like you're doing.

Davy, if you were truly the student of the bible you imagine yourself to be, you would immediately recognize that the trumpet judgments are systematically fulfilling the Old Testament verses on the Day of the Lord: that on that DAY God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Have you not studied the Old Testament verses on "the DAY?"

In other words, John TELLS US flat out at the 6th seal that the Day of His wrath has come, then goes into the trumpet judgments that PROVE "the day of His wrath" [the day of the Lord] has begun. When God turns 1/3 of the seas into blood, is that not at least starting the destruction of the earth? When there is nuclear war (first three trumpets) is that not beginning to destroy the world? Surely you know that Chernobyl translated means wormwood. Surely you know that at Chernobyl, there is a statue of an angel sounding a trumpet? That would be the third angel.

John PROVES that the Day of the Lord started right where HE said it did. the problem is, you don't believe what John wrote.

Just to set the record straight, I stick with JOHN's order. You, on the other hand, rearrange.

iamlamad · Aug 1, 2018

Davy said:
The ones who wish for the mountains and hills to fall on them are the deceived, especially the Jews (see Hosea 10:9; Luke 23:28-30; Rev.6:16). You have been taught lies, because on the "day of the Lord" God's consuming fire will burn up man's works off this earth:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

Davy, you are simply mistaken, but don't know it. John PROVES it is the start of the DAY. Did you just not read in Joel 2 what the SIGNS for the day would be? Did you just not read in Isaiah 2 what the SIGNS for the day would be?

These people SAW the signs and understood the TRUTH: the Day of the Lord had started. What did Paul write? If you SEE the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is God, then you can KNOW without any down the DAY has started, and you are IN IT. By Paul then, we KNOW the day will have already started by the time the 7th trumpet has come.

So now you have three witnesses: John TOLD us, for the first witness.
The begining of the destruction of the planet in the trumpet judgments for the second witness.
And what Paul wrote in 2 thes 2 as the third witness.

If you knew the scriptures, you would know Paul told us that THE DAY would come as a thief in the night also. So both Christ comes and the Day comes as a thief. Why is this? It is simple, HIS COMING as shown in 1 thes 4 and 5 PRETRIB will be the trigger for the start of the Day.

I am quite sure this will go right over your head. I wrote only for the readers to hear the truth.

Davy, if you want to be left behind, that is up to you. But please, don't try to convince others to be left behind with you!

iamlamad · Aug 1, 2018

Davy said:
You cannot prove the 7th trumpet is the midpoint, nor that the fleeing begins after the 7th trumpet.

Nor can you disprove the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe is the midpoint, as I have proven it is.

You are mistaken - as usual.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Midst: chetsiy (Strong's)
1. half
A. half
B. middle

Now what did Jesus say about this?

Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

From Daniel we know this abomination will divide the week into two halves. So if one is standing between the two halves, I hope you understand, they would be in the middle, right? So the abomination event will be at the exact midpoint of the week.

What did Jesus say next?

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Now, WHEN will they flee? When they see the abomination. And WHERE in the week will the abomination take place? The MIDPOINT. God it?

So the fleeing will take place at the midpoint when they SEE the abomination.

Now, where in Revelation do we find the word "flee" or "fled" as the past tense?

Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Therefore, by simply logic, we see that 12:6 has to be just after the abomination event. They SAW IT and now they are fleeing. Where these is the abomination event in Revelation? John did not see it, so did not write of it. But all we have to do is BACK UP verse by verse and find the first real-time event going backwards.

It's not in 12:1-5, for they are written as a parenthesis. So go back to chapter 11, working backwards.

It's not 11:19 about the temple in heaven. This is about the temple on earth. Back up farther.

It is not 11:16-18. That is worship in heaven. What what is next, working backwards?

15 And the seventh angel sounded...

THAT IS IT! That is the realtime event and the fleeing comes immediately after the 7th trumpet. See how simply John made it?

You imagine the midpoint is the 6th trumpet. Well, you just killed all those that fled, because Jesus said they don't even have time to get a coat! But now you have placed their fleeing so far before 12:6 that many events will take place BETWEEN the 6th seal abomination and their fleeing. In your theory it is like they took a democratic vote to see if they should flee, and the vote was a tie. So it took them all the time of the 6th and 7th trumpet events before they finally began to flee, and of course the devil got them.

Your only other choice is that there is NO TIME between the 6th trumpet and their fleeing. The problem with that theory is that now Satan will rule the word forever, for you just knocked out the 70th trumpet!

Now I have disproved your theory of the 6th trumpet being the midpoint.

Davy, HOW MUCH BETTER to just read and believe? There is no need to rearrange. The abomination comes at the 7th trumpet, and immediately after they flee. Plain and simple.

I don't have to prove "the fleeing begins after the 7th trumpet" because John proved it: that is the way he wrote it! You are arguing against John!

BABerean2 · Aug 1, 2018

iamlamad said:
You are mistaken - as usual.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Daniel Chapter 9: Dr. Kelly Varner

...............................................

From the 1599 Geneva Bible, which is the Bible the Pilgrims brought to America.

Dan 9:27 And he shal confirme the couenant with many for one weeke: and in the middes of the weeke he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the ouerspreading of the abominations, he shall make it desolate, euen vntill the consummation determined shalbe powred vpon the desolate.

Daniel 9:27
And he (a) shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to (b) cease, (c) and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make [it] desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

(a) By the preaching of the Gospel he affirmed his promise, first to the Jews, and after to the Gentiles.

(b) Christ accomplished this by his death and resurrection.

(c) Meaning that Jerusalem and the sanctuary would be utterly destroyed because of their rebellion against God, and their idolatry: or as some read, that the plague will be so great, that they will all be astonished at them.

.

Davy · Aug 2, 2018

iamlamad said:
Davy, if you were truly the student of the bible you imagine yourself to be, you would immediately recognize that the trumpet judgments are systematically fulfilling the Old Testament verses on the Day of the Lord: that on that DAY God will destroy the earth and the sinners on the earth. Have you not studied the Old Testament verses on "the DAY?"

Any true student of The Bible would not try to force a doctrine of men into the Scriptures when it simply is not there at all.

You're wrong about the trumpets, they are for sounding battle, and the 7th one is the very last one, and coincides with Christ's 2nd coming to end this present world and gather His Church. And because the last 3 trumpets are given with Woes to them, it reveals how we are to especially focus on the events given within them. They cover the final 70th week of the Book of Daniel with final event being Christ's 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord".

You are the one who needs more Bible study in the OT, because you reveal you don't have a clue of what happens on the "day of the Lord". If you had, you would well know it ends this world. Your Pre-trib Rapture preachers today try to move that "day of the Lord" backwards to the start of the tribulation, as I'm certain you well know, and to teach that idea shows their stupidity, since 2 Peter 3:10 is clear that God burns man's works off the earth on that "day of the Lord".

In other words, John TELLS US flat out at the 6th seal that the Day of His wrath has come, then goes into the trumpet judgments that PROVE "the day of His wrath" [the day of the Lord] has begun.

That's false.
Rev.7 begins a new subject because it's about the angels that are prepared to destroy the earth being held back until God has sealed His servants.

Let's talk a bit about the "day of the Lord". It will come "as a thief in the night" Apostle Paul and Peter said. And Peter said on that day God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth. Jesus said He comes "as a thief" also, which marks the day of His coming with that "day of the Lord" burning. That is also the day He gathers His Church.

But because the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine tries to move the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church backwards to the start of the great tribulation, that is why they now are trying move the "day of the Lord" events backwards in time also, just to fit their man-made doctrines. To not understand that is to be spiritually drunken on their false doctrines. There is no escaping the foolishness of their theory about that. The Scripture is clear:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

ANSWER ME:
Do you deny that "day of the Lord" will destroy man's works off this earth on that day? (And no, that event will not last a 1,000 years either.)

Davy · Aug 2, 2018

iamlamad said:
Davy, you are simply mistaken, but don't know it. John PROVES it is the start of the DAY. Did you just not read in Joel 2 what the SIGNS for the day would be? Did you just not read in Isaiah 2 what the SIGNS for the day would be?

These people SAW the signs and understood the TRUTH: the Day of the Lord had started. What did Paul write? If you SEE the man of sin enter the temple and declare he is God, then you can KNOW without any down the DAY has started, and you are IN IT. By Paul then, we KNOW the day will have already started by the time the 7th trumpet has come.

You are in gross confusion. You need to read what Peter said will occur on the "day of the Lord", and you need to heed it, as written:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

Davy · Aug 2, 2018

iamlamad said:
You are mistaken - as usual.

I am not mistaken. You simply like to blow hot air, leaving the subject. The subject is when the start of the tribulation happens vs. when the "day of the Lord" is.

Dan. 9:27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.

Midst: chetsiy (Strong's)
1. half
A. half
B. middle

I actually prefer the NIV on that verse:

Dan 9:26-27
27 He will confirm a covenant with many for one 'seven.' In the middle of the 'seven' he will put an end to sacrifice and offering. And on a wing [of the temple] he will set up an abomination that causes desolation, until the end that is decreed is poured out on him."
NIV

Now what did Jesus say about this?

Matthew 24: 15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

From Daniel we know this abomination will divide the week into two halves. So if one is standing between the two halves, I hope you understand, they would be in the middle, right? So the abomination event will be at the exact midpoint of the week.

And the placing of that idol abomination in the temple in Jerusalem by the coming pseudo-Christ is indeed... the START of the time of "great tribulation" Jesus warned:

Matt 24:21-22
21 For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
KJV

That is the event of Rev.12:7-9 also with the war in Heaven between Michael and his angels vs. Satan and his angels, and Satan and his are cast down to this earth.

Dan 12:1
12:1 And at that time shall Michael stand up, the great prince which standeth for the children of thy people: and there shall be a time of trouble, such as never was since there was a nation even to that same time: and at that time thy people shall be delivered, every one that shall be found written in the book.
KJV

That part above in red is the same timing as the Matthew 24:21 verse and the Rev.12:7-17 verses. It is tribulation timing, the 6th trumpet - 2nd Woe period.

What did Jesus say next?

Matthew 24:16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Now, WHEN will they flee? When they see the abomination. And WHERE in the week will the abomination take place? The MIDPOINT. God it?

So the fleeing will take place at the midpoint when they SEE the abomination.

Now, where in Revelation do we find the word "flee" or "fled" as the past tense?

Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That... is where you LEFT the flow of the Matthew 24 Scripture and INSERT MAN'S DOCTRINE instead, to your own destruction.

What Jesus said next...

Matt 24:22-26
22 And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened.

23 Then if any man shall say unto you, "Lo, here is Christ, or there"; believe it not.

24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

25 Behold, I have told you before.

26 Wherefore if they shall say unto you, "Behold, He is in the desert"; go not forth: "behold, He is in the secret chambers"; believe it not.
KJV

Christ's elect means His Church. If those days of great tribulation are shortened for their sake, it means they go through it. Nowhere does it say they escape to fly away to Heaven. That is your Pre-trib Rapture doctor's imagination. Just the opposite idea instead is written. That is why Jesus is warning His Church there that even if someone comes up to us and says, "Lo, here is Christ, or there", He said to not believe it! The reason is because the Antichrist comes first to do great signs and miracles on earth to deceive whomever he will. We are to WAIT... for our Lord Jesus' coming on the "day of the Lord", the FINAL day of this present world!

Your claimed simply logic will never work, as it goes obviously astray from written Scripture in God's Holy Writ. In just a couple of sentences a true follower of God's Holy Writ can reveal the proper order of Christ's 2nd coming and gathering of His Church, when it takes pages for those on Pre-trib Rapture doctrines of men to try and make their theories work, and even then it becomes obvious to anyone who is studied in God's Word how they leave the evidence written in Scripture and instead try to supplant it with their own.

Davy · Aug 2, 2018

iamlamad said:
....
Rev. 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Therefore, by simply logic, we see that 12:6 has to be just after the abomination event. They SAW IT and now they are fleeing. Where these is the abomination event in Revelation? John did not see it, so did not write of it. But all we have to do is BACK UP verse by verse and find the first real-time event going backwards.

Now looking at the Revelation 12 Scripture...

When one follows the actual flow... of the chapters in God's Holy Writ line upon line, it makes it difficult for men's doctrines to creep in, the one-verse Joe's can't pull out a single verse to make it say whatever because of it.

Rev 12:6-17
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That event is no rapture. There's not even a mention of Christ's coming! The "wilderness" is symbolic, as I told you before, and it is not symbolic for Heaven. The Pre-trib Rapture theory preaches the Church is caught up to Heaven when the tribulation begins. There is no such language of that here. You guys instead wrongly add that idea to the Scripture.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Those events of the war in Heaven with Satan and his angels cast down to this earth, begins the time of great tribulation. Notice verse 11 speaks of those who overcome him "by the blood of the Lamb". Who could that be??? It's CHRIST'S CHURCH, STILL ON EARTH THEN. How else would Christ's faithful be able to overcome that dragon then "by the word of their testimony", if they had already been raptured??? And no, those are not converted Jewish 'tribulation saints' those on the Pre-trib theory have made up.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Wait a minute, I thought the 'woman' (which represents Christ's Church because of that 11th verse, and the later 17th verse), had already FLED? They didn't flee to Heaven. They went into the symbolic wilderness prepared for them, which is about God sealing them by The Holy Spirit in order to make a stand in the evil day, having put on the whole armor of God in prep for the tribulation (Eph.6).

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

That 15th verse right there verifies that the "woman" didn't physically go anywhere. If she had, that serpent would not be able to cast that water as a flood out of his mouth after the woman.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

The earth helps the woman, swallowing up the flood, which certainly ain't happening in Heaven. That phrase, "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" seals the identity of that woman in that time; it is Christ's Church still on earth.

iamlamad · Aug 2, 2018

Davy said:
Any true student of The Bible would not try to force a doctrine of men into the Scriptures when it simply is not there at all.

You're wrong about the trumpets, they are for sounding battle, and the 7th one is the very last one, and coincides with Christ's 2nd coming to end this present world and gather His Church. And because the last 3 trumpets are given with Woes to them, it reveals how we are to especially focus on the events given within them. They cover the final 70th week of the Book of Daniel with final event being Christ's 2nd coming on the "day of the Lord".

You are the one who needs more Bible study in the OT, because you reveal you don't have a clue of what happens on the "day of the Lord". If you had, you would well know it ends this world. Your Pre-trib Rapture preachers today try to move that "day of the Lord" backwards to the start of the tribulation, as I'm certain you well know, and to teach that idea shows their stupidity, since 2 Peter 3:10 is clear that God burns man's works off the earth on that "day of the Lord".

That's false.
Rev.7 begins a new subject because it's about the angels that are prepared to destroy the earth being held back until God has sealed His servants.

Let's talk a bit about the "day of the Lord". It will come "as a thief in the night" Apostle Paul and Peter said. And Peter said on that day God's consuming fire will burn man's works off this earth. Jesus said He comes "as a thief" also, which marks the day of His coming with that "day of the Lord" burning. That is also the day He gathers His Church.

But because the Pre-trib Rapture doctrine tries to move the timing of Christ's coming to gather His Church backwards to the start of the great tribulation, that is why they now are trying move the "day of the Lord" events backwards in time also, just to fit their man-made doctrines. To not understand that is to be spiritually drunken on their false doctrines. There is no escaping the foolishness of their theory about that. The Scripture is clear:

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

ANSWER ME:
Do you deny that "day of the Lord" will destroy man's works off this earth on that day? (And no, that event will not last a 1,000 years either.)

Davy, you simply amaze me! OF COURSE THE DAY is a day of destruction! That is what I have been pointing out to you!

This is an Old Testament summary of the START of the DAy of the Lord: it will NOT be only a 24 hour day - it will be an extended period of time:

Isaiah 13:9
Behold, the day of the Lord cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall destroy the sinners thereof out of it.

So two parts to it:
1. Desolate the land
2. Destroy the sinners out of it.

Think for a moment of the 6th trumpet judgment - where 1/3 of earth's population is killed. Would that not fit with "destroy the sinners out of it?"

Would the parable of the tares not fit with "destroy the sinners out of it?"

It also seems you have not read these scriptures:

Joel 1
15 Alas for the day! for the day of the Lord is at hand, and as a destruction from the Almighty shall it come.

18 How do the beasts groan! the herds of cattle are perplexed, because they have no pasture; yea, the flocks of sheep are made desolate.

19 O Lord, to thee will I cry: for the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness, and the flame hath burned all the trees of the field.

20 The beasts of the field cry also unto thee: for the rivers of waters are dried up, and the fire hath devoured the pastures of the wilderness.

What fire burns up grass and destroys trees? Can we find this in the trumpet judgments?

Rev 8:7 The first angel sounded, and there followed hail and fire mingled with blood, and they were cast upon the earth: and the third part of trees was burnt up, and all green grass was burnt up.

I think this is talking about nuclear warfare with trumpet 2 and 3. The big question is, is this fulfilling Isaiah 13:9? Is this God systematically destroying the earth?

8 And the second angel sounded, and as it were a great mountain burning with fire was cast into the sea: and the third part of the sea became blood;

9 And the third part of the creatures which were in the sea, and had life, died; and the third part of the ships were destroyed.

Is this destroying the earth?

10 And the third angel sounded, and there fell a great star from heaven, burning as it were a lamp, and it fell upon the third part of the rivers, and upon the fountains of waters;

11 And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.

Is this destroying the earth?

God is a God of mercy, and even in wrath begins destruction with only 1/3 judgment. But finally, when men refuse to repent, in the vials it is 100% destruction.

Wait! There is more:

Joel 2: 31 The sun shall be turned into darkness, and the moon into blood, before the great and terrible day of the Lord come.

And what did the people at the 6th seal see?

Rev. 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

Wait! There is more:

Isaiah talks about THE DAY in chapter 2:
12 For the day of the Lord of hosts shall be upon every one that is proud and lofty, and upon every one that is lifted up; and he shall be brought low:

19 And they shall go into the holes of the rocks, and into the caves of the earth, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

21 To go into the clefts of the rocks, and into the tops of the ragged rocks, for fear of the Lord, and for the glory of his majesty, when he ariseth to shake terribly the earth.

Now what did the people see at the 6th seal? What did John write? It is like He just copied from Isaiah!

Rev. 6: 12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake...

5 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come.

Take note: they saw the moon turn to blood, they saw and felt the terrible earthquake, they followed Isaiah's verses and went into the rocks for fear of the Lord. Then after John writes that THE DAY begins, we see the trumpets systematically beginning the destruction of the earth. I ask you, what else do you need to know that THE DAY begins at the 6th seal and continues on through the entire 70th week. And without a doubt, THE DAY is still going on when Jesus returns to the Battle of Armagddon. Have you ever read commentaries on : THE DAY?

As to Peter's verse: WHEN or WHERE in Revelation can we guess that Peter's fire that melts the elements fits?

I have read personal testimonies of people who have had visions and or dreams of this. People were running towards the ocean to get away from the fire, for the entire ground was on fire. But as they got out into the water, then the water started burning!

Question: Will God cleanse this planet with fire before the Millennial reign?

iamlamad · Aug 2, 2018

Davy said:
Now looking at the Revelation 12 Scripture...

When one follows the actual flow... of the chapters in God's Holy Writ line upon line, it makes it difficult for men's doctrines to creep in, the one-verse Joe's can't pull out a single verse to make it say whatever because of it.

Rev 12:6-17
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

That event is no rapture. There's not even a mention of Christ's coming! The "wilderness" is symbolic, as I told you before, and it is not symbolic for Heaven. The Pre-trib Rapture theory preaches the Church is caught up to Heaven when the tribulation begins. There is no such language of that here. You guys instead wrongly add that idea to the Scripture.

7 And there was war in heaven: Michael and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,
8 And prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.

Those events of the war in Heaven with Satan and his angels cast down to this earth, begins the time of great tribulation. Notice verse 11 speaks of those who overcome him "by the blood of the Lamb". Who could that be??? It's CHRIST'S CHURCH, STILL ON EARTH THEN. How else would Christ's faithful be able to overcome that dragon then "by the word of their testimony", if they had already been raptured??? And no, those are not converted Jewish 'tribulation saints' those on the Pre-trib theory have made up.

12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.

Wait a minute, I thought the 'woman' (which represents Christ's Church because of that 11th verse, and the later 17th verse), had already FLED? They didn't flee to Heaven. They went into the symbolic wilderness prepared for them, which is about God sealing them by The Holy Spirit in order to make a stand in the evil day, having put on the whole armor of God in prep for the tribulation (Eph.6).

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

That 15th verse right there verifies that the "woman" didn't physically go anywhere. If she had, that serpent would not be able to cast that water as a flood out of his mouth after the woman.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

The earth helps the woman, swallowing up the flood, which certainly ain't happening in Heaven. That phrase, "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" seals the identity of that woman in that time; it is Christ's Church still on earth.

Again you absolutely amaze me! It makes me wonder what and how you read. This is SO SIMPLE!

Mat. 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand

16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Plain and simple: the SEE and the FLEE. Do you see a rapture here? There is no rapture here! It is people taking Jesus at His word and FLEEING!

Rev, 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here in Rev. 12 we see this fleeing - running for their lives - actually taking place. They SAW the abomination, and they fled. Many think they will flee to the city of Petra. It is very close to Bozrah.

Therefore, without even a shadow of doubt, we know that the abomination event Jesus spoke of happened some second or two BEFORE 12:6. I say it happened on earth when the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven.

Sorry, you err yet again! The wilderness is plain and simple wilderness. I think you need to walk from Jerusalem southwest towards Petra. It is 123 miles driving, but if they are fleeing for their life they are probably off the roads. So maybe the walk would be much farther. And it is mostly desert wilderness. Why then would you even imagine, must less think, that it is symbolic?

Just so you know, I have NEVER even suggested a rapture in 12:6. I don't know of anyone who has. The rapture will take place over 3.5 years before 12:6 happens! The church will be gone from the earth. Jesus was speaking to people living in Judea to flee. the church will not flee, it will be caught up.

So who is it still on earth that love Jesus? It is the millions of people to imagined they were ready for His coming, but were LEFT BEHIND. Add to that NEW BELIEVERS from around the world that knew about Christ but was putting off a decision for a later date. AFter the rapture, millions will turn to Jesus, now KNOWING the truth: that He really IS God in the flesh.

Therefore, assuming that this must be the church is just one more error. Did you overlook exactly what John wrote?

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How do you explain this word? Why is there only a remnant left? It is very simple: the main load went out at the 6th seal pretrib rapture. Believe it, for it is truth!

iamlamad · Aug 2, 2018

Davy said:
Wait a minute, I thought the 'woman' (which represents Christ's Church because of that 11th verse, and the later 17th verse), had already FLED? They didn't flee to Heaven. They went into the symbolic wilderness prepared for them, which is about God sealing them by The Holy Spirit in order to make a stand in the evil day, having put on the whole armor of God in prep for the tribulation (Eph.6).

14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
15 And the serpent cast out of his mouth water as a flood after the woman, that he might cause her to be carried away of the flood.

That 15th verse right there verifies that the "woman" didn't physically go anywhere. If she had, that serpent would not be able to cast that water as a flood out of his mouth after the woman.

16 And the earth helped the woman, and the earth opened her mouth, and swallowed up the flood which the dragon cast out of his mouth.
17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.
KJV

The earth helps the woman, swallowing up the flood, which certainly ain't happening in Heaven. That phrase, "have the testimony of Jesus Christ" seals the identity of that woman in that time; it is Christ's Church still on earth.

Wrong again! When you miss the meaning of verses 1-5, you misunderstand the rest. Jesus was not born of the church! Jesus was born of ISRAEL.

Did you forget Joseph's dream? The 12 stars for virgo's crown represent the 12 tribes of ISRAEL. The Messiah came from ISRAEL, not the church! The WOMAN IS ISRAEL.

Do you imagine that church members will be living in Judea and they will flee? NO! Descendants of Jacob (for the most part) are living in Judea.

Next, they did not flee to heaven! You amaze me! Did Jesus tell them to flee to heaven? No, He told them they must run for their lives. Run where? AWAY from Judea! Where do you come up with these ideas? Certainly not from the TEXT! Neither do they flee to some symbolic place! Davy, this will be a REAL flight for their lives. Jesus was not telling them to flee symbolically!

Get this straight! They begin their flight in verse 6, which comes BEFORE the rest of the chapter! "to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness..." Now this is symbolic of how God protected and fed the children of Israel in their flight from Egypt. But they will NOT get into planes. They RUN - ON FOOT.

In verses 1-5, the woman is the entirety of Israel. But after the fleeing "the woman" becomes those from Judea that fled. How do you know the devil cannot start a real flood with water? Perhaps there will be a dam above where they are fleeing. Does the devil have power over dams? Of course he does. It will be a REAL flight running, on foot, and the devil wants to kill them all. But God is going to protect this "woman."

OF COURSE this is not happening in heaven! Is Judea in heaven? You never cease to amaze me!

"the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed"

Could the remnant of the church - those left behind who turn to God after - could we say that believers in Christ came from Israel? Why not? JESUS, the head of the church, came from Israel. So I think we could say that the church really is the "seed" of Israel. Most of the New Testament was written by Jews!

Davy · Aug 2, 2018

iamlamad said:
Davy, you simply amaze me! OF COURSE THE DAY is a day of destruction! That is what I have been pointing out to you!

This is an Old Testament summary of the START of the DAy of the Lord: it will NOT be only a 24 hour day - it will be an extended period of time:

And thus begins your lie (that part above I underlined).

The "day of the Lord" will... be a very quick event, it will NOT BE AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

The very idea of the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" is that it will be a surprise upon the wicked, because they will not be expecting that day of destruction upon them. Apostle Paul also showed this in 1 Thessalonians 5 of when they shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" comes upon them. Sudden does NOT mean an extended period of time like you try to say. Apostle Paul is actually pulling from the OT prophets like Isaiah 29:5 about that event coming "at an instant, suddenly."

You quoted from Isaiah, Joel, and Revelation, but stayed away from what Apostle Peter said in the above that I asked you about.

You have denied what Peter said, which his description marks all the other OT examples about the "day of the Lord" being a day of destruction ending the works of the wicked off this earth.

Simple logic is that if the time of the wicked on earth is destroyed on the "day of the Lord", that means the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" is over, no more, ended on that day.

Davy · Aug 2, 2018

iamlamad said:
Again you absolutely amaze me! It makes me wonder what and how you read. This is SO SIMPLE!

Mat. 24:
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

Plain and simple: the SEE and the FLEE. Do you see a rapture here? There is no rapture here! It is people taking Jesus at His word and FLEEING!

Rev, 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here in Rev. 12 we see this fleeing - running for their lives - actually taking place. They SAW the abomination, and they fled. Many think they will flee to the city of Petra. It is very close to Bozrah.

Therefore, without even a shadow of doubt, we know that the abomination event Jesus spoke of happened some second or two BEFORE 12:6. I say it happened on earth when the 7th trumpet sounds in heaven.

You show amazing deception. You can't even recognize the Rev.12:14 verse about a second description of the symbolic woman fleeing into the symbolic wilderness, but you instead choose to hang on that Rev.12:6 example. Wrong. The Rev.12:14 verse is the tribulation timing with Antichrist in power. The war in Heaven at Rev.12:7-9 MUST occur first before any "abomination of desolation" can be setup in Jerusalem. It's that war in Heaven with Satan and his angels cast down to this earth in the last days that causes the time of great tribulation. The first description of the woman fleeing isn't tied to brethren in Judea fleeing when the AOD is setup there.

Daniel's "one week" of Dan.9:27:
[-----------------------"one week" (7 years)---------------------------]
[---------1260 days-------------]MIDDLE[---------1260 days---------]
[-------Rev.12:6 wilderness----]MIDDLE[---Rev.12:14 wilderness---]

Sorry, you err yet again! The wilderness is plain and simple wilderness. I think you need to walk from Jerusalem southwest towards Petra. It is 123 miles driving, but if they are fleeing for their life they are probably off the roads. So maybe the walk would be much farther. And it is mostly desert wilderness. Why then would you even imagine, must less think, that it is symbolic?

The Rev.12 fleeing of the woman into the wilderness isn't even about a physical fleeing from the AOD anyway. The wilderness is NOT the 'mountains' of Judea Jesus was talking about in His Olivet discourse. The Rev.12 wilderness is symbolic only of being sealed with God's seal. And anyone in that time not sealed with God's seal will be deceived by the Antichrist, and subject to the Rev.9 stinging.

And Petra is where the deceived will be saying this when Jesus comes on the "day of the Lord" -

Luke 23:28-30
28 But Jesus turning unto them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for Me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children.

29 For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, 'Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck.'

30 Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us.
KJV

Where else have we heard their begging for the mountains and hills to, "Fall on us"? It's also said in Rev.6 on the 6th Seal.

Petra means 'rock'. It won't be a hiding place. It will be a trap.

Just so you know, I have NEVER even suggested a rapture in 12:6. I don't know of anyone who has. The rapture will take place over 3.5 years before 12:6 happens! The church will be gone from the earth. Jesus was speaking to people living in Judea to flee. the church will not flee, it will be caught up.

That idea is even worse!

There is NO rapture written of in the Rev.12 Chapter, period. Nor is there any rapture written of in Christ's Olivet discourse prior to His warning of the time of great tribulation and placing of the "abomination of desolation" idol, and arrival of the pseudo-Christ. Even in 2 Thessalonians 2 Apostle Paul made it clear that Jesus does not come to gather the Church until the great apostasy and arrival of the Antichrist sitting in the temple in Jerusalem playing God happens first.

So who is it still on earth that love Jesus? It is the millions of people to imagined they were ready for His coming, but were LEFT BEHIND. Add to that NEW BELIEVERS from around the world that knew about Christ but was putting off a decision for a later date. AFter the rapture, millions will turn to Jesus, now KNOWING the truth: that He really IS God in the flesh.

There is NO "Left-Behind" movies playing in God's Word. That's an air castle created by men. The Luke 17 Scripture reveals the first one 'taken' is to Antichrist, not to Jesus (compare Jesus' answer in the last verse with the dead carcase in Matthew 24:28). Our Lord Jesus is not coming prior to the tribulation to gather us. He is coming to END the great tribulation on the "day of the Lord" and that's when He will gather us, the us meaning only His faithful that will have 'waited' for Him instead of those who fall away to the "another Jesus" that comes first.

Therefore, assuming that this must be the church is just one more error. Did you overlook exactly what John wrote?

17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

How do you explain this word? Why is there only a remnant left? It is very simple: the main load went out at the 6th seal pretrib rapture. Believe it, for it is truth!

How deceived can one be??? Who do you think will STILL be 'standing' in Christ Jesus with the Gospel armor on in that time??? It won't be spiritually drunken deceived brethren like you on a fly away doctrine of men! It will only be the Church which remains faithful, waiting on the TRUE Jesus to come, and not falling away to worship the "another Jesus" that comes first to fly the deceived away. Christ's servants are expected to give a Testimony during that time, not seek to escape like a weakling coward.

Luke 12:35-40
35 Let your loins be girded about, and your lights burning;

The idea of girding one's loins is a Hebrew expression of preparing for battle, and getting right with The LORD, not for running away.

36 And ye yourselves like unto men that wait for their lord, when he will return from the wedding; that when he cometh and knocketh, they may open unto him immediately.

That's what we are to do, wait... for Jesus to return, not fall away to the untimely figs.

37 Blessed are those servants, whom the lord when he cometh shall find watching: verily I say unto you, that he shall gird himself, and make them to sit down to meat, and will come forth and serve them.
38 And if he shall come in the second watch, or come in the third watch, and find them so, blessed are those servants.

That is about Christ's faithful Church that stays on watch for the thief to come trying to break in.

39 And this know, that if the goodman of the house had known what hour the thief would come, he would have watched, and not have suffered his house to be broken through.

But those who do not stay on watch waiting, those will not be prepared and thus will be spiritually asleep, allowing the thief to break in at midnight, taking them by surprise (1 Thess.5). Those brethren that fall away to the first supernatural Messiah that comes (i.e., Antichrist), will be surprised when the True Jesus Christ shows up after that. That is why the Jews will wish for the hills and mountains to fall on them, because they will have fallen to the fake Christ which Jesus and Paul warned will come first.

40 Be ye therefore ready also: for the Son of man cometh at an hour when ye think not.
KJV

LittleLambofJesus · Aug 2, 2018

iamlamad said:
Again you absolutely amaze me! It makes me wonder what and how you read. This is SO SIMPLE!

Rev, 12:6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.

Here in Rev. 12 we see this fleeing - running for their lives - actually taking place. They SAW the abomination, and they fled. Many think they will flee to the city of Petra. It is very close to Bozrah.

Good post.
Speaking of wilderness, do you and/or others see the similarity between Reve 17:3 and Ezek 8:3?

Revelation 17:3
And he carries me away into a wilderness in Spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a scarlet beast, being replete of names of blasphemy having 7 heads and 10 horns. [Ezekiel 8:3]

Edit to add: What is meant by "seat of the image of jealousy"?

Ezekiel 8:3
He stretched out the form of a hand, and took me by a lock of my hair;
and the Spirit lifted me up between earth and heaven,
and brought me in visions of God to Jerusalem, to the door of the north gate of the inner court,
where the seat of the image of jealousy was, which provokes to jealousy.[Revelation 17:3]

Davy · Aug 2, 2018

iamlamad said:
Wrong again! When you miss the meaning of verses 1-5, you misunderstand the rest. Jesus was not born of the church! Jesus was born of ISRAEL.

Did you forget Joseph's dream? The 12 stars for virgo's crown represent the 12 tribes of ISRAEL. The Messiah came from ISRAEL, not the church! The WOMAN IS ISRAEL.

You're hilarious. Your ignorant comparison just does not work in trying to change the identity of the "woman". The Rev.12:17 verse declares the "woman" being about those who have the Testimony of Jesus Christ. Just who would that be? Hmmm....?

The first five verses of Rev.12 is a type summary. The sun and moon and 12 stars are from Joseph's dreams of Gen.37. In the beginning the "woman" only represented the OT Church, even the seed of the woman back at Genesis 3 which Jesus was to be born through. But when Jesus came to die on the cross, the NT Church became the possessors of His Salvation, not the unbelieving Jews that rejected Jesus (Matt.21 with the parable of the vineyard). Rev.12:5 winds up about Jesus ruling over the nations with the promised "rod of iron". That is NOT about unbelieving Israel! It's about Christ's believers, the Christian Church which is God's Israel.

Do you imagine that church members will be living in Judea and they will flee? NO! Descendants of Jacob (for the most part) are living in Judea.

Some Christians are... living in the nation state of Israel still today. Their origin as being Jewish doesn't matter if they belong to Jesus. And speculating like you're doing points to your lack of faith of Jesus being able to protect those Christians there throughout the tribulation by the false messiah.

Next, they did not flee to heaven! You amaze me! Did Jesus tell them to flee to heaven? No, He told them they must run for their lives. Run where? AWAY from Judea! Where do you come up with these ideas? Certainly not from the TEXT! Neither do they flee to some symbolic place! Davy, this will be a REAL flight for their lives. Jesus was not telling them to flee symbolically!

You're funny. What does this say believers among the countries outside Judea are to do?

Luke 21:21
21 Then let them which are in Judaea flee to the mountains; and let them which are in the midst of it depart out; and let not them that are in the countries enter thereinto.
KJV

Get this straight! They begin their flight in verse 6, which comes BEFORE the rest of the chapter! "to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness..." Now this is symbolic of how God protected and fed the children of Israel in their flight from Egypt. But they will NOT get into planes. They RUN - ON FOOT.

No they don't. The Rev.12:6 verse is about the 1st half of Daniel's symbolic "one week". In that 1st half is when the temple will be built and sacrifices start up again in Jerusalem. The time of great tribulation is after the midpoint of the "one week". There is no salvation in Petra, which is not about God our ROCK. Satan is the little 'rock' of Deuteronomy. Petra belonged to the Idumeans.

Obad 3
3 The pride of thine heart hath deceived thee, thou that dwellest in the clefts of the rock, whose habitation is high; that saith in his heart, 'Who shall bring me down to the ground?'
KJV

In verses 1-5, the woman is the entirety of Israel. But after the fleeing "the woman" becomes those from Judea that fled. How do you know the devil cannot start a real flood with water? Perhaps there will be a dam above where they are fleeing. Does the devil have power over dams? Of course he does. It will be a REAL flight running, on foot, and the devil wants to kill them all. But God is going to protect this "woman."

Waters of a flood don't come out of one's MOUTH, words do silly.

"the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed"

Could the remnant of the church - those left behind who turn to God after - could we say that believers in Christ came from Israel? Why not? JESUS, the head of the church, came from Israel. So I think we could say that the church really is the "seed" of Israel. Most of the New Testament was written by Jews!

No such thing as left-behind.

We don't have to wonder about any such idea of left-behind believers, because Jesus showed in His Olivet discourse the very last sign was that of His coming and gathering of His saints, both from Heaven and from the earth, just as Apostle Paul taught in 1 Thessalonians 4. Trying to move that last sign He gave backwards in the timeline He gave is blasphemy against Him, and Holy Writ there.

Davy · Aug 2, 2018

LittleLambofJesus said:
Good post.
Speaking of wilderness, do you and/or others see the similarity between Reve 17:3 and Ezek 8:3?

Revelation 17:3
And he carries me away into a wilderness in Spirit, and I saw a Woman sitting on a scarlet beast, being replete of names of blasphemy having 7 heads and 10 horns. [Ezekiel 8:3]

Yes, there is a correlation. The wilderness idea in Rev.12 is a symbol, not a literal wilderness. The subject of the wilderness of Rev.12:14 forward is about God's protection of His servants spiritually, not being deceived by the waters 'AS' a flood coming out of the serpent's mouth after the woman (Church).

Even with comparing it to the OT wilderness when Israel trekked forty years in, that period signified a period of purification, God weeding out the rebellious among Israel during that time. That is how the wilderness idea in Rev.12 is used, about a period of spiritual purification, not a physical escape. The way it is easy to know this is because if the wilderness was about a literal physical escape of the woman, then the serpent would NOT be able to cast the flood out of his mouth after the woman. We see the earth helps the woman, and swallows up the flood of waters, showing they are right in the midst of battle with that serpent.

iamlamad · Aug 2, 2018

Davy said:
And thus begins your lie (that part above I underlined).

The "day of the Lord" will... be a very quick event, it will NOT BE AN EXTENDED PERIOD OF TIME.

2 Peter 3:10-12
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.

11 Seeing then that all these things shall be dissolved, what manner of persons ought ye to be in all holy conversation and godliness,

12 Looking for and hasting unto the coming of the day of God, wherein the heavens being on fire shall be dissolved, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat?
KJV

The very idea of the "day of the Lord" coming "as a thief in the night" is that it will be a surprise upon the wicked, because they will not be expecting that day of destruction upon them. Apostle Paul also showed this in 1 Thessalonians 5 of when they shall say, "Peace and safety", then "sudden destruction" comes upon them. Sudden does NOT mean an extended period of time like you try to say. Apostle Paul is actually pulling from the OT prophets like Isaiah 29:5 about that event coming "at an instant, suddenly."

You quoted from Isaiah, Joel, and Revelation, but stayed away from what Apostle Peter said in the above that I asked you about.

You have denied what Peter said, which his description marks all the other OT examples about the "day of the Lord" being a day of destruction ending the works of the wicked off this earth.

Simple logic is that if the time of the wicked on earth is destroyed on the "day of the Lord", that means the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" is over, no more, ended on that day.

It is not a lie; the problem is that we disagree. You simply don't understand the Day of the Lord.

Do you understands "comes" is different than "duration?" Peter is only telling us that the Day of the Lord will START with no warning.

This is EXACTLY what Paul tells us in his now famous rapture passage. The rapture sequence of events will begin SUDDENLY with no warning - because HE comes as a thief in the night. When HE comes, the trumpet will sound, the dead will be raised, then those alive will be raised while at the same time those left behind will NOT be raised but will suffer Paul's sudden destruction beginning of the Day of the Lord.

Why is this so difficult? It is written out plainly. And John shows us the same exact BEGINNING of the Day of the Lord. The problem is, what is written does not fit your theory - and instead of adjusting your theory, you rearrange scripture to fit. Davy, it is not wise! Just form your theories from the word of God AS WRITTEN. Don't try to rearrange, as if the Holy Spirit did not know the proper order of things.

Next, when something makes plain sense as written, don't try to make it into a symbol of something else!

Sudden does NOT mean an extended period of time like you try to say

It seems you lack understanding of the start of something versus the ending of something. These scriptures are speaking of the sudden BEGINNING, and have nothing to do with duration!

Davy, have you EVER read any of the commentaries?

The fact is, Peter and Paul are saying the same thing, so I saw no need to quote it or even talk about it. He is speaking of the START, not the duration or the finish.

Here is a quote from the first commentary I found:
"The Day of the Lord refers to God’s special interventions into the course of world events to judge His enemies, accomplish His purpose for history, and thereby demonstrate who He is—the sovereign God of the universe.1

There is some disagreement concerning whether the phrase “Day of the Lord” refers just to the time of tribulation, or whether it also includes the thousand-year reign of Christ on earth which follows.
The most common biblical term for the seven years of Tribulation in both testaments is the Day of Jehovah or Day of the Lord. There are many who use the term, the Day of the Lord, to apply to both the Tribulation and the Messianic Kingdom. This is generally based on the assumption that the phrases, the Day of the Lord and that day, are synonymous. While it is true that the expression, that day, has a wide meaning that includes both the Tribulation and the Messianic Kingdom, in those passages where the actual phrase, the Day of the Lord (Jehovah) is used, they never refer to the Millennium, but always to the Tribulation.2

We believe there are reasons to understand the phrase as including the millennial reign:

Peter’s description of the Day of the Lord appears to include events following the Millennium"

Again I have a simple question: why not just believe the text as written.John shows us all the Old Testament signs for the day, the tells us the day has come. Why argue?

Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

Is the Rapture showing in Revelation?

Yes

No

Maybe

I don't know

Doesn't matter

other

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Hebrews 2:14.... Pesky Devil, git!

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