Is the Rapture shown in 1Thess 4 showing in Revelation? If so, where?

Dave Watchman said:

That's good. It's fun to agree. The only problem is, you think the 6th seal is before the tribulation begins, i think the 6th seal is "immediately AFTER the tribulation of those days. How can anyone think the 6th seal is the start of the tribulation? The main part of the tribulation is the sudden destruction of the 4th seal becoming the catalyst for the martyrdom of the 5th seal. How are we going to go through all the mark of the beast and all the beheading, and then you think the 6th seal is the rapture???



I'm sorry too. They are not two different signs. The "sackcloth" sun is the same as the "darkened" sun from Matthew 24. Neither of these two suns are turned into darkness like the one from Joel 2:31. Joel's sun IS TOTALLY DARK, a total eclipse, the 6th seal sun and Matthew's sun is merely "darkened', a partial eclipse.

The word from Matthew is "darkened". It's just darkened, it's NOT turned into dark-ness like the one from Joel. And Joel's is "before", Matthew's is "immediately AFTER". The other thing is, "as black as sackcloth", is not that black. Sackcloth is a coarsely woven material. If you throw a sackcloth bag over the sun, light still shines through. The sun is only "darkened". It's like if i put my black T-shirt over the end of a flashlight, light still shines through, It's just "darkened" like Matthew 24. But if i put my hand over the end of the flashlight, the light is totally blocked out, it's turned into darkness like Joel 2:31.

Black sackcloth:

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Did you not consider what John wrote?

Revelation 16:10 Then the fifth angel poured out his bowl on the throne of the beast, and his kingdom became full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues because of the pain.

When Jesus returns, as shown in Rev. 19, there will be TOTAL darkness. No blood red moon, for that would provide at least a tiny amount of light. And Jesus said that both the sun and moon would be darkened - exactly as they would have to be for total darkness.

Then when Jesus said His coming would be as lightning flashing across the sky - that hints strongly of dark.

Next, Joel 2 shows the sun turning dark and the moon into blood BEFORE the Day begins, but Joel 3 shows us both being dark when Jesus returns to earth: so again I say, these are two signs, coming over 7 years apart, and for two purposes. You are mistaken if you imagine these verses are all speaking of one sign at one given time.

Finally, just the words of Jesus should convince you they are two separate signs: Jesus said "after" the days of GT. Sorry, but Paul's rapture (with a coming of the Lord) comes BEFORE the start of the Day of the Lord, and for sure before any days of GT. We both know that His coming as shown in Rev. 19 is AFTER the days of GT.

Therefore these signs MUST be two separate signs for two different purposes.

And Joel's is "before", Matthew's is "immediately AFTER".
Why then do you not see them as two events?

LittleLambofJesus said:

Couldn't smoke cause the sun and stars to darken, and flames/fire cause the moon to show red at night from a City burning? Just thinking out loud........

Reve 18:8
by this, in one day shall be arriving the blows of Her, death and sorrow and famine.
And in fire She shall be being burned, that strong Lord, the God, the one judging Her

Reve 19:3 And a second-time they have declared "allelouia and the smoke of Her is ascending into the Ages of the Ages".

Rev 9:2
And he opened the bottomless pit, and smoke arose out of the pit like the smoke of a great furnace.
So the sun and the air were darkened because of the smoke of the pit.

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Agreed! Earthquakes and volcano's can turn out all the heavenly lights! I was in Idaho when Mt Saint Helen's blew her top off, and it became dark as night in the afternoon!

ewq1938 said:

I already have proven it's not the same quake.

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I'll give you this: you have a good imagination!

iamlamad said:

(Bold added for emphasis)
Sorry, but your timing is off. The kingdoms of the world become His at the 7th trumpet which marks the exact midpoint of the week.

Jesus will come FOR His bride just before the Day of the Lord and 70th week begin.
He will come WITH His saints after the 70th week has finished. All this is shown to us in Revelation.

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The 6th trumpet timing is the time of "great tribulation". That is when God's two witnesses dish out the plagues and prophesy, with two candlesticks also with them prophesying. It will be the time of the delivering up of many brethren for The Holy Spirit to speak through them (Mark 13). It will be when some of those same brethren will be beheaded for their Testimony of The Gospel. It is the time of Antichrist's reign, the 42 months I showed from Rev.11 on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. Each Woe is hard linked to a trumpet.

The 7th trumpet - 3rd Woe is the time of Jesus' coming to gather His Church and END the Antichrist's reign.

iamlamad said:

I can almost agree here: for sure every mention of the 3.5 years is for the last half of the week - without question. I would have said his 42 months begins at the midpoint - or very shortly after. Good job Davy.

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There are 2 halves of 3.5 years to the "one week" (7 years) prophecy given in the Book of Daniel. We should be definite on that (Dan.9).

The Rev.11 42 months is a major clue, because we are shown a contrast in that timing, one given about the unsaved in months, just as the dragon's is given in months in Rev.13, and then another for God's servants given in days. Both 42 months and 1260 days technically do not equal exactly 3.5 years. Timing based on the lunar year (months) is just a little shorter than timing based on the solar year (days). That's another way to distinguish those Gentiles of Rev.11 representing the unsaved.

Those who represent God's servants in Rev.11 are the two witnesses in Jerusalem, but also two Churches, which is representative globally of Christ's elect, because at the end of Rev.1 Jesus told John that the candlesticks are the Churches.

iamlamad said:

Same earthquake! Good point. But it is the same BECAUSE 11:4-13 are written as a parenthesis with no chronology.

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I see no 'parenthesis' section of Scripture in the Rev.11 chapter at all. The events are sequential in the order they occur, because the trumpet-woe periods began in Rev.8 and continue all the way to the 7th trumpet in Rev.11:15. Those last 3 trumpet-woe periods we can be sure that their order is sequential. One, two, three, our Lord Jesus made it simple to follow. The Rev.10 chapter is parenthetical though, and we are told there that when the 7th angel sounds, what God prophesied through His prophets for this world will be finished.

In verses 11:1-2 John is just before the midpoint. In verse 3 the two witnesses show up. I believe in 1-2 John is showing us that the MAN OF SIN with his gentile (Muslim?) armies just arrive in Jerusalem. He MUST arrive there because he will soon enter the temple there.

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The midpoint of Daniel's "one week" begins on the 6th trumpet-2nd Woe of Rev.9:12. That's when the four angels bound at the river Euphrates are loosed, allowing Israel's enemies to cross (Euphrates as used there is a symbol for the border between Israel and their enemies). So with the view at Rev.11:1-2 we are shown the third temple built again and the Jews worshiping in it again, with the Antichrist's armies (Gentiles) treading the city 42 months, the same start time of Antichrist's reign when he will establish the "abomination of desolation". It's like I said, it's "great tribulation" timing that our Lord Jesus warned us about in Matt.24, Mark 13, the start marker being the end of sacrifices and establishing of the "abomination of desolation" idol in the temple.

The two witnesses show up just 3 1/2 days before the midpoint, and they show up because the man of sin showed up. So I think the man of sin arrives 3 1/2 days before the midpoint. Just my thinking. But then, John takes us on a side journey down the last half of the week with the two witnesses: so their death APPEARS to be before the 7th trumpet, but in reality will be just before the 7th vial that ends the week. Verses 4-13 are written as a parenthesis. the 7th trumpet will mark the very moment the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews.

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Not really, because the time per a solar calendar year (days) is a little bit longer than a lunar calendar year (months). The pivot to keep in mind are those start times with events of the last 3 trumpet - woe periods. The 5th trumpet - 1st woe period begins at the end of Rev.8 and continues through to Rev.9:11, and the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period flows from Rev.9:12 thru Rev.11:13, and the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period flows from Rev.11:14 thru to Rev.11:19.

Moreover, our Lord Jesus said He shortened the time for His elect's sake (Matt.24). So we can only really follow the events He gave us there, and not try to be mathematical wizards with trying to calculate those days.

iamlamad said:

that He comes "as a thief" is a reference to it via the "day of the Lord" events which occur on the last day of this world.
Sorry, but the Day of the Lord begins at the 6th seal just before the 70th week begins at the 7th seal. Just believe what John wrote! He was not mistaken, nor were those that saw the SIGNS of the Day.

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You are trying to follow the events in the Revelation seals, trumpets, and vials exactly how they were written down when in actuality they are not all in chronological order. Our Lord Jesus returns on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. The Revelation events are simply expanded information about the 7 main signs our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. Until you recognize this, you will never understand the proper order of the Revelation events. They will remain a mystery to you.

1. The 6th Seal shows the nations seeing Jesus take reign, and they have shame, wanting to hide from Him. That will only occur at His return, even as He showed in Rev.1 that He comes with clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. Per your view, that event should not even be there in Rev.6, since the 7th seal wasn't even given yet. Your view shows a conundrum.

2. On the 7th trumpet of Rev.11, all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son, and the unsaved nations are angry because His wrath has come. That will only occur on the day of Jesus' return to reign over the nations. But per your view, the vials have to happen first and they haven't even been mentioned yet at Rev.11. So there you have another conundrum in your view.

3. On the 6th vial of Rev.16, Jesus is warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief". Because He gave that warning at that point of the 6th vial, it means we are to wait for His coming on the event of the next verse, i.e., the 7th vial which is when the battle of Armageddon will happen. Thus His Church is still on earth through all those previous vials of Rev.16. And He marked His coming on the 7th vial with His warning that He comes "as a thief", which is the time marker Apostles Paul and Peter used for the "day of the Lord" event. But per your view, the "day of the Lord" event happens prior to the trumpets and vials! Thus you have another conundrum in your view, showing you are not thinking for yourself, but instead are trying to follow men's traditions.

Davy said:

The 6th trumpet timing is the time of "great tribulation". That is when God's two witnesses dish out the plagues and prophesy, with two candlesticks also with them prophesying. It will be the time of the delivering up of many brethren for The Holy Spirit to speak through them (Mark 13). It will be when some of those same brethren will be beheaded for their Testimony of The Gospel. It is the time of Antichrist's reign, the 42 months I showed from Rev.11 on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. Each Woe is hard linked to a trumpet.

The 7th trumpet - 3rd Woe is the time of Jesus' coming to gather His Church and END the Antichrist's reign.

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Sorry, but you cannot find those words at the 6th trumpet. and it is before the 7th that marks the midpoint. You are simply mistaken. It will certainly be bad, because 1/3 of earth's population will be killed. But will NOT be the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, which will come AFTER the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews.

You are mistaken again: the two witnesses will show up and BEGIN their testimony just a few days before the midpoint of the week. AFTER the 6th trumpet judgment has finished. And they will testify during the last half of the week. And yes, it seems very likely they will dish out the plagues.

Mark 13? No, you are mistaken yet again! Notice Jesus' words: "but the end shall not be yet." Jesus is talking about the CHURCH AGE, not end times. Jesus does not really begin the end times until verse 13. Matthew 24 shows us the same thing, only better.

Where does JOHN tell us the beheadings will start? Do you even know?

Rev. 15:2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

Rev. 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

The days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not even begin until the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, but it will get dreadfully worse after chapter 14, when the image and mark begin to be enforced. Revelation shows us that is when the beheaded begin to arrive in heaven.

the 42 months I showed from Rev.11 on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period.
Sorry, but another error. John does not begin the Beast's 42 months until chapter 13, and you want to start it in chapter 11 with the 6th trumpet. You are simply mistaken.
The very first time count will be the trampling of Jerusalem by Gentile armies, as shown in 11:1-2. And this will be AFTER the second woe, 6th trumpet judgment has finished.

Davy said:

You are trying to follow the events in the Revelation seals, trumpets, and vials exactly how they were written down when in actuality they are not all in chronological order. Our Lord Jesus returns on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. The Revelation events are simply expanded information about the 7 main signs our Lord Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse. Until you recognize this, you will never understand the proper order of the Revelation events. They will remain a mystery to you.

1. The 6th Seal shows the nations seeing Jesus take reign, and they have shame, wanting to hide from Him. That will only occur at His return, even as He showed in Rev.1 that He comes with clouds and every eye will see Him, even those who pierced Him. Per your view, that event should not even be there in Rev.6, since the 7th seal wasn't even given yet. Your view shows a conundrum.

2. On the 7th trumpet of Rev.11, all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son, and the unsaved nations are angry because His wrath has come. That will only occur on the day of Jesus' return to reign over the nations. But per your view, the vials have to happen first and they haven't even been mentioned yet at Rev.11. So there you have another conundrum in your view.

3. On the 6th vial of Rev.16, Jesus is warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief". Because He gave that warning at that point of the 6th vial, it means we are to wait for His coming on the event of the next verse, i.e., the 7th vial which is when the battle of Armageddon will happen. Thus His Church is still on earth through all those previous vials of Rev.16. And He marked His coming on the 7th vial with His warning that He comes "as a thief", which is the time marker Apostles Paul and Peter used for the "day of the Lord" event. But per your view, the "day of the Lord" event happens prior to the trumpets and vials! Thus you have another conundrum in your view, showing you are not thinking for yourself, but instead are trying to follow men's traditions.

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when in actuality they are not all in chronological order. I hear or read you saying it, but you are simply wrong. Can you provide bible proof that john wrote things in the wrong order? After all, He numbered the seals, the trumpets, the woes and the vials for sequence, so why would you even think the rest must be out of order? God is a God of order. There is simply NO NEED to rearrange: if you have the truth, everything is in the right order. However, if you believe man's theories and reasonings, you might find a reason to rearrange. The truth is, ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong.

Our Lord Jesus returns on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. Wow! You have escaped reality in three directions! Jesus will not return on ANY of these events! He comes first BEFORE the 6th seal but hidden in a cloud, FOR His saints, then returns in chapter 19 WITH His saints. There is no coming at the 7th trumpet. That is myth.

Until you recognize this, you will never understand the proper order of the Revelation events. On the contrary, until you quit rearranging, you will never understand John's true chronology.

The 6th Seal shows the nations seeing Jesus take reign, and they have shame, wanting to hide from Him. That will only occur at His return
This is myth! You only imagine He must return then, but there are no words at the 6th seal telling us He returns then. John tells us that God the Father is seated at His throne, but there are no words to pinpoint the location of the Son. He will remain at the Father's right hand - remember the footstool? Mark 12:36. It is certainly the beginning of the Day of the Lord, but Jesus will not return in power until after the entire 70th week has finished.

If you study Paul's rapture - which is a coming FOR His saints - this rapture comes just BEFORE the 6th seal. therefore, you are very close. But the truth is, the 6th seal is the start of the Day of the Lord, the start of His Wrath, and the start of judgment. What it is NOT is a coming of our Lord. Please allow me to help you here:

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Notice the very word, "coming?" This is a true coming of Our Lord. It will be His coming FOR His saints.

Rev. 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.

12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.

13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.

14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.

15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.

This is also a coming, without the word "coming." We can easily tell by the words that Jesus leaves the marriage and supper in heaven and descends to earth on a white horse, with the armies of heaven with Him. It is His coming in power, WITH His saints.

The truth is, there are and will be NO MORE than these two future comings of Our Lord. No other comings are found in scripture. And sadly enough, many people can't even believe in these two, trying to force them both into one.

On the 7th trumpet of Rev.11, all the kingdoms of this world become those of The Father and His Son, and the unsaved nations are angry because His wrath has come. That will only occur on the day of Jesus' return to reign over the nations.
Sorry, but this is myth and human reasoning. the OWNERSHIP or RULERSHIP legally changes in heaven, as if it a court of law, but it is only your imagination that He must come to earth to possess the kingdoms then! In fact, He cannot, for He has promised the Beast 42 months. He is not going to go back on His word. The truth is, Jesus will ALLOW the Beast to rule HIS (Jesus') kingdom - but only for those 42 months. Then He will return.

I took ownership of a house in a legal closing. That does not mean I took possession physically! In fact I leased it out to others. Jesus will give the Beast 42 months of ruling.

3. On the 6th vial of Rev.16, Jesus is warning His Church on earth that He comes "as a thief". Because He gave that warning at that point of the 6th vial, it means we are to wait for His coming on the event of the next verse, i.e., the 7th vial
It does not mean that at all! This is more human reasoning. He comes as a thief both future comings, FOR His church and WITH His church. Each time the day and hour will be unknown. Paul wrote that THE DAY comes as a thief, because Jesus comes as a thief FOR His bride then, and His coming and the rapture will trigger the start of the DAY.

Why not just believe what you read? The 7th vial ends the week, but Jesus does not return then! Did you not read chapters 17 and 18 and then about the marriage and supper? These events separate the 7th vial from His coming in chapter 19.

Davy said:

I see no 'parenthesis' section of Scripture in the Rev.11 chapter at all. The events are sequential in the order they occur, because the trumpet-woe periods began in Rev.8 and continue all the way to the 7th trumpet in Rev.11:15. Those last 3 trumpet-woe periods we can be sure that their order is sequential. One, two, three, our Lord Jesus made it simple to follow. The Rev.10 chapter is parenthetical though, and we are told there that when the 7th angel sounds, what God prophesied through His prophets for this world will be finished.

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Just because you don't see it does not mean it is not there! It IS there. John tells us of 5 different events that was still near the midpoint and go to the end of the week - and EACH of them (EVERY ONE of them) is parallel during the last half of the week.

The first is shown in 11:1-2. John just gives a two verse statement: the city will be trampled.
In 12:6 again it is a one verse statement: those in Judea begin to flee. But we know their flight will take a long time because they are on foot, and they will be gone from Jerusalem the entire last half of the week - yet John just gives us one verse here.

In Revelation 12:14, again it is just one verse, but with a little more detail, but again that one verse covers all the last half of the week.

In Rev. 13:5 in one single statement John tells us the Beast will be given 42 months.

Now go back to 11:3: After telling us that the two witnesses just showed up right then, just before the midpoint, John takes a SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week with the two witnesses ONLY. But He also covers the last half of the week in chapters 12-16.
Of course then, with the two witnesses it is written as a parenthesis. Verses 11:4 - 11:13 parallel chapters 13 through 16 as the last half of the week.

John does something very similar in chapter 13. In real time John sees the beast rise and is given 42 months, but then know takes us way down the path of the last half of the week with them - the two Beasts - showing us what they will do. So much of chapter 13 parallels chapters 12 - 16.

What we have then with staggared starting but rulling parallel - happening at the same time:

John's main line dialog chapters 11 - 16
the 42 months of trampling
the 1260 days of testifying (this one John takes us on a side journey)
the 1260 days of fleeing
the 3.5 years of supernatural protection
the 42 months of authority. (this one John takes us on a side journey)

All these evens run concurrently. But John cannot write concurrently, so He writes of one, then another, then another. However, through study, we can know of each and every parallel path.
These "side journeys" are written as parentheses. Time is moving, but ONLY for that one event. When he is done with the side journey, John is right back at the point the side journey began.

For example, with the two witnesses, verse 3 is just 3 days before the midpoint, but in verse 15 John is AT the midpoint.

I agree on chapter 10.

Davy said:

The midpoint of Daniel's "one week" begins on the 6th trumpet-2nd Woe of Rev.9:12.

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Can you prove this statement?

What did Jesus say? He told those that the moment they see the abomination, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! Where do we see this fleeing? It is in 12:6. Therefore that verse is only a second or two after the abomination event that will divide the week. If we back up from 12:6 to find a real time event of seals - trumpets - vials: we come to the 7th trumpet. Therefore it is the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint.

Since all five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time is mentioned in chapters 11 through 13, and since each mention is of an event that will begin at the midpoint, it is common sense and logic that the midpoint MUST BE in these chapters. And indeed, the 7th trumpet marks that midpoint.

iamlamad said:

Sorry, but you cannot find those words at the 6th trumpet. and it is before the 7th that marks the midpoint. You are simply mistaken. It will certainly be bad, because 1/3 of earth's population will be killed. But will NOT be the days of GT that Jesus spoke of, which will come AFTER the man of sin enters the temple and declares he is the God of the Jews.

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The timing of Rev.11:1-14 is tribulation timing, the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week". Verse 1 shows an established temple with the Jews worshiping inside.

Rev 11:1-2
11:1 And there was given me a reed like unto a rod: and the angel stood, saying, Rise, and measure the temple of God, and the altar, and them that worship therein.

2 But the court which is without the temple leave out, and measure it not; for it is given unto the Gentiles: and the holy city shall they tread under foot forty and two months.
KJV

It is called "the temple of God" because it represents a built temple by the Jews in Jerusalem. These events happen just prior to the 7th trumpet, and the 7th trumpet is when Jesus will take reign over the nations. So it doesn't take a lot of common sense to understand these Rev.11:1-14 events are of the time Jesus called the "great tribulation" in Matthew 24. If you want to believe some tradition of men instead of listening to the simplicity of the Scripture, then that's your choice to disagree.

You are mistaken again: the two witnesses will show up and BEGIN their testimony just a few days before the midpoint of the week. AFTER the 6th trumpet judgment has finished. And they will testify during the last half of the week. And yes, it seems very likely they will dish out the plagues.

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I never agreed nor disagreed with your theory on that. So you can argue with yourself all you want of guessing when the two witnesses show up. Point is, Jesus shortened the time.

Uh, what 6th trumpet judgment??? You're pushing men's traditions again, because it sounds like you think Rev.9 is about the locust army killing of 1/3 is the battle of Armageddon when it is not! You're confused because of following men's traditions instead of thinking for yourself, and of course you don't like me pointing that out, but sorry, I must.

Mark 13? No, you are mistaken yet again! Notice Jesus' words: "but the end shall not be yet." Jesus is talking about the CHURCH AGE, not end times. Jesus does not really begin the end times until verse 13. Matthew 24 shows us the same thing, only better.

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The Church Age doctrine is a theory of men; can't add that to God's Word because it is not from His Word. It is from men. I'll tell you one reason why. Many on that Church Ages theory today are teaching that we are now in the age of the Church at Laodecia, their using that last Church written of in Rev.3 as the pattern for ALL Churches today. That's a lie, because the 7 Messages are still applicable for ALL Churches today. Each Message will still fit a particular Church type today. The Church Ages theory of men instead teaches to dump all those previous Messages as being history, showing Satan's influence over the deceived once again!

In Mark 13 when Jesus said there will be wars and rumors of wars, but the end is not yet, He was giving a simple contrast between a time of wars, and a time of world peace. But of course you're just heeding your Church's mainstream teaching on that because you haven't figured out the "end" He was pointing to IS about the tribulation time, because it is to be a time of PEACE:

1 Thess 5:2-3
2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, "Peace and safety"; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.
KJV

"Peace and safety" is what the deceived on earth will be proclaim just prior to the destruction on the day of Jesus' 2nd coming by the "day of the Lord" events. You have failed to recognize that time world peace for the end. Likely you don't even pay attention to the U.N. plans for world peace via a one world government either. It would seem you have been wrapped up by men's doctrines designed to lead you away from that understanding, because someone teaching any idea that the "end" Jesus mentioned there in Mark 13 is some other... timing than the very end of this world (i.e., tribulation timing), then those teachers have been taken in deception.

Where does JOHN tell us the beheadings will start? Do you even know?

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The beheading event is mentioned on the 5th Seal, which is this event pointed out here also:

Rev 12:9-11
9 And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.
10 And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb, and by the word of their testimony; and they loved not their lives unto the death.
KJV

That timing of course coincides with the time when Satan there is cast out of Heaven down to this earth at the very end of this world, which is pointing to the great tribulation timing. It coincides with the timing of God's two witnesses in Jerusalem.

The days of GT that Jesus spoke of will not even begin until the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint, but it will get dreadfully worse after chapter 14, when the image and mark begin to be enforced. Revelation shows us that is when the beheaded begin to arrive in heaven.

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That's funny! When the 7th trumpet sounds, these following events take place, showing how you are telling lies...

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of His Christ; and He shall reign for ever and ever.

16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,

17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.

18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

Davy said:

Not really, because the time per a solar calendar year (days) is a little bit longer than a lunar calendar year (months). The pivot to keep in mind are those start times with events of the last 3 trumpet - woe periods. The 5th trumpet - 1st woe period begins at the end of Rev.8 and continues through to Rev.9:11, and the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period flows from Rev.9:12 thru Rev.11:13, and the 7th trumpet - 3rd woe period flows from Rev.11:14 thru to Rev.11:19.

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You only imagine that one event lasts the full time to the next event. I don't agree. For example, the 5th trumpet, first woe comes and finished. It lasts 5 months. There are no words telling us those 5 months takes us right up to the 6th trumpet. I am convinced God gives TIME between events to see of people repent.

As an example - NOT saying it will be this way, but an example of how it could be:
Each trumpet judgment - one through 6 lasts 5 months, just as this 5th one does, and then God gives a two month grace period to see of anyone will repent. That would then make a 7 month period with the 5 months for the event and two months grace period. So 6 events times 7 months each fills the entire 42 months of the first half of the week. How convenient! Again, not saying all events last 5 months: this is just an example of how it could be.

12 One woe is past; and, behold, there come two woes more hereafter.

13 And the sixth angel sounded...

The 5th trumpet event happens, then John writes that it is PAST. But does that mean there is no time between its end and the start of the next? John just writes "hereafter."

All we can prove is that the 5th trumpet comes, and it is followed with some unknown time by the 6th trumpet. We don't know the time between. What we do know is that the first six trumpet judgments must come in the first 42 months of the 70th week.

Again there are no words written to prove that the 6th trumpet army that will murder a third of the population will last all the way to even 11:1. Perhaps it ends before the man of sin enters Jerusalem as shown in Rev. 11:1.

The third woe is over course tied to the 7th trumpet - but is the 7th trumpet the actual woe? No, I don't think so. The 7th trumpet is the alarm bell for Michael to go after Satan to take him down. and it is written "woe" on the earth because Satan is very angry!

Therefore I disagree.

Davy said:

There are 2 halves of 3.5 years to the "one week" (7 years) prophecy given in the Book of Daniel. We should be definite on that (Dan.9).

The Rev.11 42 months is a major clue, because we are shown a contrast in that timing, one given about the unsaved in months, just as the dragon's is given in months in Rev.13, and then another for God's servants given in days. Both 42 months and 1260 days technically do not equal exactly 3.5 years. Timing based on the lunar year (months) is just a little shorter than timing based on the solar year (days). That's another way to distinguish those Gentiles of Rev.11 representing the unsaved.

Those who represent God's servants in Rev.11 are the two witnesses in Jerusalem, but also two Churches, which is representative globally of Christ's elect, because at the end of Rev.1 Jesus told John that the candlesticks are the Churches.

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What you are missing is that God is not trying to fit HIS timing into our actual time of the earth's one year journey around the sun. For prophecy, God uses a 360 days year. 360 divided by 12 equals 30. God uses a 30 day month. 30 times 42 equals 1260. You will have to ask God why He gave some events in months and others in days. Could it be that when He gives it in days, it will be accurate to the very day?

Davy said:

The 6th trumpet timing is the time of "great tribulation". That is when God's two witnesses dish out the plagues and prophesy, with two candlesticks also with them prophesying. It will be the time of the delivering up of many brethren for The Holy Spirit to speak through them (Mark 13). It will be when some of those same brethren will be beheaded for their Testimony of The Gospel. It is the time of Antichrist's reign, the 42 months I showed from Rev.11 on the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. Each Woe is hard linked to a trumpet.

The 7th trumpet - 3rd Woe is the time of Jesus' coming to gather His Church and END the Antichrist's reign.

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You cannot prove either of these statements with the word.
I can prove the 7th trumpet is the midpoint: the fleeing begins right after the 7th trumpet, not the 6th.

iamlamad said:

when in actuality they are not all in chronological order. I hear or read you saying it, but you are simply wrong. Can you provide bible proof that john wrote things in the wrong order? After all, He numbered the seals, the trumpets, the woes and the vials for sequence, so why would you even think the rest must be out of order? God is a God of order. There is simply NO NEED to rearrange: if you have the truth, everything is in the right order. However, if you believe man's theories and reasonings, you might find a reason to rearrange. The truth is, ANY theory that must rearrange Revelation to fit will be proven wrong.

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I already gave you Biblical proof of how the Revelation events are not in the order you're trying to put them. It's obvious the time of the Lamb's wrath on the 6th Seal does not occur until the vials, and the trumpets and vials aren't even given yet at the 6th seal. If you want to stick to the false order you've been taught, then go to. I don't care if you want to be deceived.

Our Lord Jesus returns on the 6th Seal, 7th Trumpet, and 7th Vial. Wow! You have escaped reality in three directions! Jesus will not return on ANY of these events! He comes first BEFORE the 6th seal but hidden in a cloud, FOR His saints, then returns in chapter 19 WITH His saints. There is no coming at the 7th trumpet. That is myth.

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I keep to the events and what occurs on them, not number scratching in Revelation like you're doing.

Until you recognize this, you will never understand the proper order of the Revelation events. On the contrary, until you quit rearranging, you will never understand John's true chronology.

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I meant what I said. You can take it or leave it.

The 6th Seal shows the nations seeing Jesus take reign, and they have shame, wanting to hide from Him. That will only occur at His return
This is myth! You only imagine He must return then, but there are no words at the 6th seal telling us He returns then. John tells us that God the Father is seated at His throne, but there are no words to pinpoint the location of the Son. He will remain at the Father's right hand - remember the footstool? Mark 12:36. It is certainly the beginning of the Day of the Lord, but Jesus will not return in power until after the entire 70th week has finished.

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The ones who wish for the mountains and hills to fall on them are the deceived, especially the Jews (see Hosea 10:9; Luke 23:28-30; Rev.6:16). You have been taught lies, because on the "day of the Lord" God's consuming fire will burn up man's works off this earth:

2 Peter 3:10
10 But the day of the Lord will come as a thief in the night; in the which the heavens shall pass away with a great noise, and the elements shall melt with fervent heat, the earth also and the works that are therein shall be burned up.
KJV

That is the same day of Jesus' 2nd coming; like He said, "Behold, I come as a thief." (Rev.16:15)

If you study Paul's rapture - which is a coming FOR His saints - this rapture comes just BEFORE the 6th seal. therefore, you are very close. But the truth is, the 6th seal is the start of the Day of the Lord, the start of His Wrath, and the start of judgment. What it is NOT is a coming of our Lord.

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That's a lot of your problem. You're heeding men' false tradition of a pre-trib fly away rapture. Jesus returns only one time, and it is to gather His Church and to fight the battle of Armageddon, and take reign over the nations. The 'day of the Lord' event will end Antichrist's reign and this present world, man's works burned off the earth. Christ's Millennium reign will then begin.

Because of your heeding men's traditions instead, they have deceived you into forcing their doctrine to fit into our Lord's Revelation. That's why you are so mixed up about the events in Revelation, and cannot fathom that those on the 6th seal who fear the Lamb's wrath is a 7th vial and 7th trumpet event.

And that's why you made up a lie to hide this very fact of Scripture on that 6th seal:

Rev 6:16-17
16 And said to the mountains and rocks, "Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:
17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?"
KJV

If you're still alive on earth when that happens, will you then still say that event is NOT about the day of Jesus' 2nd coming, just so you can keep your false tradition of men?

Please allow me to help you here:

1 Thessalonians 4:15
For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

Notice the very word, "coming?" This is a true coming of Our Lord. It will be His coming FOR His saints.

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Those liars have trained you well, for they have tricked you into only recognizing our Lord Jesus' 2nd coming if some version of the word 'coming' is involved. That is such wizardly of lies that it's almost like a rape:

Can we tell with the below example if it's about the event of Jesus' 2nd coming? Yes, no doubt...

Rev 16:15-20
15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.
16 And He gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.
17 And the seventh angel poured out his vial into the air; and there came a great voice out of the temple of heaven, from the throne, saying, It is done.
18 And there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
19 And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of His wrath.
20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
KJV

That doesn't specifically say Jesus is coming right then, but it doesn't have to. All one need do is look at those events and it's easy to tell that's the day of His return. Likewise in this below verses:

Rev 11:15-18
15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.
KJV

Only a liar would deny that Christ is not reigning over the kingdoms of this world at that point of Rev.11:15. The verse says He and The Father emphatically are, and that can mean only one thing; the Antichrist's reign has been destroyed and the tribulation ended at that point, and that... is a sign of the time of Jesus having return to rule with the "rod of iron" over the nations that He has been promised.

So you can keep mouthing, but the more you do it the more trouble you get into against the Scriptures.

iamlamad said:

Just because you don't see it does not mean it is not there! It IS there. John tells us of 5 different events that was still near the midpoint and go to the end of the week - and EACH of them (EVERY ONE of them) is parallel during the last half of the week.

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The only place it is...is in the unreliable minds of the preachers you've been listening to. The 42 months and 1260 days are very easy to understand what timing that is. It is the tribulation time, the latter half of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of 7 years. And the Church is still on earth at that point, Christ's coming not yet happened on that 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period. To even understand what the midpoint is one must first understand the Daniel prophecy about the placing of the abomination that makes desolate, and that automatically links to the signs Jesus gave in His Olivet discourse, the last sign He gave there was His 2nd coming to gather His Church, both from heaven and from the earth.

The first is shown in 11:1-2. John just gives a two verse statement: the city will be trampled.
In 12:6 again it is a one verse statement: those in Judea begin to flee. But we know their flight will take a long time because they are on foot, and they will be gone from Jerusalem the entire last half of the week - yet John just gives us one verse here.

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The fleeing into the wilderness in Rev.12 has nothing to do with a literal physical fleeing. That's your pre-trib rapture doctors deceiving you again. The protection for the woman in the last days is spiritual, involving the mind, the ability to not be deceived. The wilderness represents a pasturing where God's people can be fed. That's what God did with Israel in the wilderness. It's about being 'sealed' with God's sealing in the forehead. In Rev.17:3 John is carried into the wilderness and shown the woman sitting upon a scarlet colored beast. That's what the wilderness in the last days for God's people is, it's a symbol for God sealing His servants so they cannot be deceived by the serpent. It is not about a physical flying away. Your pre-trib doctors probably think the locusts of Rev.9 are real locusts too I'll bet, and thus they miss the whole Message of what Jesus is revealing there too.

In Revelation 12:14, again it is just one verse, but with a little more detail, but again that one verse covers all the last half of the week.

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The whole Rev.12:7 to 17 section is about the latter half of Daniel's "one week". The war in heaven causes the time of trouble on earth the likes that have never been, nor will ever be again, i.e. the time of "great tribulation" (see Daniel 12:1). It will be because Satan and his angels will be booted down to this earth and he will play Jesus, and tell the deceive to prepare to 'fly away' with him. The first ones 'taken' are by the devil, not by Jesus (see last 5 verses of Luke 17).

In Rev. 13:5 in one single statement John tells us the Beast will be given 42 months.

Now go back to 11:3: After telling us that the two witnesses just showed up right then, just before the midpoint, John takes a SIDE JOURNEY down the last half of the week with the two witnesses ONLY. But He also covers the last half of the week in chapters 12-16.

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It only says the two witnesses will prophesy for 1260 days. Doesn't say when they show up. No side journeys. John is then shown what else will happen to the two witnesses AFTER their 1260 days of testimony is done. What you're trying to do is ADD to the Scripture something that is not there!

Of course then, with the two witnesses it is written as a parenthesis. Verses 11:4 - 11:13 parallel chapters 13 through 16 as the last half of the week.

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No, it's not a parenthesis. The events there are in order as they are being explained, from Rev.11:1 to 14.

John does something very similar in chapter 13. In real time John sees the beast rise and is given 42 months, but then know takes us way down the path of the last half of the week with them - the two Beasts - showing us what they will do. So much of chapter 13 parallels chapters 12 - 16.

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Confusion, all that is.

The 42 months the Gentiles tread the city is the same timing the two witnesses prophesy for 1260 days. One timing is given in months and the other is given in days. Both equal the 3 & 1/2 years latter part of Daniel's symbolic "one week" of Dan.9, which is tribulation time. The whole 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is the time of great tribulation.

What we have then with staggared starting but rulling parallel - happening at the same time:

John's main line dialog chapters 11 - 16
the 42 months of trampling
the 1260 days of testifying (this one John takes us on a side journey)
the 1260 days of fleeing
the 3.5 years of supernatural protection
the 42 months of authority. (this one John takes us on a side journey)

All these evens run concurrently. But John cannot write concurrently, so He writes of one, then another, then another. However, through study, we can know of each and every parallel path.
These "side journeys" are written as parentheses. Time is moving, but ONLY for that one event. When he is done with the side journey, John is right back at the point the side journey began.

For example, with the two witnesses, verse 3 is just 3 days before the midpoint, but in verse 15 John is AT the midpoint.

I agree on chapter 10.

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The only "side journeys" are in your imagination, or actually the imaginations of the pre-trib doctors you listen to. The purpose for 'creating' those side journeys is so it makes easier the insertion of a 'fly away' rapture at the midpoint of the symbolic week. But the idea of a fly away rapture at the midpoint of course is a falsehood, and not Biblical at all.

iamlamad said:

Can you prove this statement?

What did Jesus say? He told those that the moment they see the abomination, RUN FOR YOUR LIVES! Where do we see this fleeing? It is in 12:6. Therefore that verse is only a second or two after the abomination event that will divide the week. If we back up from 12:6 to find a real time event of seals - trumpets - vials: we come to the 7th trumpet. Therefore it is the 7th trumpet that marks the exact midpoint.

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Yes, it's easy to prove the 6th trumpet - 2nd woe period is when the midpoint of Daniel's "one week" is.

In Jesus' Olivet discourse, the time of "great tribulation" coincides with the placing of the "abomination of desolation". That's when Jesus told His servants in Judea to flee to the mountains. That timing is the Rev.12:13-17 events. Obviously, the serpent could not persecute the woman if the woman was physically hidden in the wilderness. The wilderness is a symbol for spiritual protection by being sealed with God's seal against the flood out of the serpent's mouth, and thus not able to be deceived. The Rev.12:6 event is equal to the time of Rev.7 about the sealing of God's servants.

Since all five mentions of the 3 1/2 year period of time is mentioned in chapters 11 through 13, and since each mention is of an event that will begin at the midpoint, it is common sense and logic that the midpoint MUST BE in these chapters. And indeed, the 7th trumpet marks that midpoint.

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That last statement is a totally illogical idea!

You might as well say that since bears can walk on two legs like a man, then bears must be men.

The 7th trumpet does NOT MARK THE MIDPOINT. You only make that up because that's what your Pre-trib Rapture doctors teach you.

The day is fast coming when the Pre-trib Rapture theory of man will be found out, and how it has to distort God's Holy Writ to try and force it to fit into Scripture. Yet it will not fit, never has, and never will.