Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

seventysevens · Jul 23, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Then let them make up their own mind about who is not interpreting the text correctly.

false amil doctrinal; teaching requires twisting the meanings instead of accepting the writings as they are written - forcing interpretations that are not in the text- into it's meaning corrupts the true meaning

Erik Nelson · Jul 23, 2018

BABerean2 said:
That is a remarkable statement from someone who is willing to ignore "the time of the judgment of the dead" in Revelation 11:18, and the judgment of the living in Matthew 25:31-46, and Christ returning in "flaming fire" in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10, and Christ judging both the living and the dead at His return in 2 Timothy 4:1

Supporting that view, I think the term "nations" links Rev 11 "nations were wroth" <--> Matt 25 <--> Rev 20:7-9 "nations deceived [into wrath?] with Gog & Magog"

"throne" links Matt 25 <--> Rev 20:11+

there's a lot of overlap there supporting post-mil view that Christ returns on the Great White Throne

so you would say that Rev 19's victorious Christian figure is some sort of "scaled down" prefiguration? A pre-mill "2nd Coming Preview" ? A 2nd coming like event, but not Christ physically on the GWT ?

Erik Nelson · Jul 23, 2018

Dave L said:
The kingdom is eternal, not 1000 years long. And flesh and blood cannot inherit it.

still offer that

Kingdom = eternal
Kingdom reigning over society = Millennium = 1000 years

Erik Nelson · Jul 23, 2018

Douggg said:
The Kingdom of God is everlasting. And a person has to be born again to be everlasting.

When Jesus returns to this earth, to reign over it, this present earth will last a 1000 years, before it is destroyed, and replaced with a new earth following the Great White Throne judgment. There will always be an earth.

Is your present body eternal? Or do you have hopes of a replacement?

please do remember there is one more stage, namely the "little time" of Gog & Magog and the nations after the Millennium up until the Great White Throne arrives at earth

Erik Nelson · Jul 23, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Dave,

Will you be upset if I disagree with you on this one?

Rev 2:27 'HE SHALL RULE THEM WITH A ROD OF IRON; THEY SHALL BE DASHED TO PIECES LIKE THE POTTER'S VESSELS'—as I also have received from My Father;

The potter destroys the flawed pots with the rod of Iron.
I believe this will occur at His Second Coming.

.

sounds like the feet of iron & pottery in the statue of Daniel, shattered by the rock cut out not with hands = rock of Peter = Church

rock shattering feet of iron & pottery = defeat of 4th section of statue = defeat of 4th beast = defeat of beast of the sea = Rev 19

which ushers in the Millennium of the eternal spiritual Kingdom of Christ reigning with political power over society for 1000 years

Doesn't Rev 2:27 <--> Rev 19 ?

Rev 20:1-6 even says victorious Christians would "rule with Christ"

easy to interpret Rev 19 = 2nd coming

easy to see Rev 20:11+ = 2nd coming

Rev 19 even echoes Ez 39's imagery of carrion crows feasting on the fallen... after battle with Gog & Magog... who are (re-)mentioned explicitly in Rev 20:7-9...

which is it???

both sides have strong support... is Rev intrinsically ambiguous and multi-meaning'ed… or is there some subtle way to resolve the issue ?

Douggg · Jul 23, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
please do remember there is one more stage, namely the "little time" of Gog & Magog and the nations after the Millennium up until the Great White Throne arrives at earth

yes, as far as there being the little time after the thousand years "expire".

I don't think though that the Great White Throne "arrives at earth". I think the earth and heaven are destroyed (fled away). And then the Great White Throne judgment takes place.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

But your point about the little time between the end of the thousand years and the great white throne judgment is well made.

Erik Nelson · Jul 23, 2018

Douggg said:
yes, as far as there being the little time after the thousand years "expire".

I don't think though that the Great White Throne "arrives at earth". I think the earth and heaven are destroyed (fled away). And then the Great White Throne judgment takes place.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

But your point about the little time between the end of the thousand years and the great white throne judgment is well made.

the "first resurrection" at onset of Millennium = "Christians && martyrs && beheaded"

such would include St. Paul, beheaded (as a Roman citizen) in about 65 AD...

how many other Christian martyrs were beheaded ?

St. Paul in 65 AD, Justin Martyr + 6 companions in 165 AD...

How many total? I think if people realized just how select a group get the "special treatment" in Rev 20:1-6 then they wouldn't try to "balloon" the 1st resurrection into some sort of general resurrection of the Righteous.

If I read Rev 20:1-6 correctly, not even St. Peter or St. James the Just are included in the 1st Resurrection... because they were crucified (upside down) and stoned (after surviving being thrown from the temple), not beheaded

Dave L · Jul 23, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
still offer that

Kingdom = eternal
Kingdom reigning over society = Millennium = 1000 years

1000 years = a symbol for the saints reigning to the degree Satan is bound. As you said earlier: "the Millennium is not the Kingdom. However, the Millennium is the Kingdom reigning over society, as the socially dominant majority."

Dave L · Jul 23, 2018

Douggg said:
The Kingdom of God is everlasting. And a person has to be born again to be everlasting.

When Jesus returns to this earth, to reign over it, this present earth will last a 1000 years, before it is destroyed, and replaced with a new earth following the Great White Throne judgment. There will always be an earth.

Is your present body eternal? Or do you have hopes of a replacement?

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. Also that it does not come with observation.

Dave L · Jul 23, 2018

Douggg said:
The introduction of the Kingdom of God was spiritual and Jesus said it began within people. Having the impact of changing people's lives and them around them. And secures a person's eternal destiny and going to heaven when they leave this world bodily.

However, the visible, tangible, coming to the Kingdom of God, to have dominion, replacing Satan's invisible kingdom Babylon the Great, will be when Jesus returns to this world in great power and glory to rule over it being physically present on this earth.

Babylon is fallen, is fallen, is referring to the future dismantling and demise of Satan's kingdom. The bible is a book about God's destruction of Satan and his works.

The resurrection of the dead, universally, will be at the end of the thousand years in Revelation 20. The resurrection of the dead in Christ coupled with the translation of the living in Christ will happen sometime before the beginning years of the Day of the Lord start.

Nowhere does Jesus say his kingdom is of this world or that it is physical. He says the exact opposite.

Douggg · Jul 23, 2018

Dave L said:
Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. Also that it does not come with observation.

Agreed, Dave. But you have to consider at that time, Jesus was introducing the Kingdom of God to man; which woven into it was the plan of salvation which is based on faith to receive eternal life to be a part of the eternal Kingdom.

It was not part of God's overall plan that the Kingdom of God be established as a literal Kingdom on the earth at that time. The timing when the Kingdom of God becomes a literal kingdom here on earth is to happen when it says in Daniel 2:44 and Daniel 7:25-27.

We are almost there.

Douggg · Jul 23, 2018

Dave L said:
Nowhere does Jesus say his kingdom is of this world or that it is physical. He says the exact opposite.

Jesus taught it was a literal Kingdom as well in the Lord's prayer. And that we are to pray for it's coming to earth.

Matthew 6:
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

Dave L · Jul 23, 2018

Douggg said:
Agreed, Dave. But you have to consider at that time, Jesus was introducing the Kingdom of God to man; which woven into it was the plan of salvation which is based on faith to receive eternal life to be a part of the eternal Kingdom.

It was not part of God's overall plan that the Kingdom of God be established as a literal Kingdom on the earth at that time. The timing when the Kingdom of God becomes a literal kingdom here on earth is to happen when it says in Daniel 2:44 and Daniel 7:25-27.

We are almost there.

Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. It comes without observation. It is within you. One must be born again to see it.

The only other world he mentions is the world to come. And your physical kingdom with death, suffering and anarchy does not fit there either.

Dave L · Jul 23, 2018

Douggg said:
Jesus taught it was a literal Kingdom as well in the Lord's prayer. And that we are to pray for it's coming to earth.

Matthew 6:
9 After this manner therefore pray ye: Our Father which art in heaven, Hallowed be thy name.

10 Thy kingdom come. Thy will be done in earth, as it is in heaven.

11 Give us this day our daily bread.

12 And forgive us our debts, as we forgive our debtors.

13 And lead us not into temptation, but deliver us from evil: For thine is the kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.

The kingdom is spiritual and reaches finality in Israel's resurrection/restoration on the last day. When we are resurrected in glorified spiritual bodies like Jesus' own body.

BABerean2 · Jul 23, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
so you would say that Rev 19's victorious Christian figure is some sort of "scaled down" prefiguration? A pre-mill "2nd Coming Preview" ? A 2nd coming like event, but not Christ physically on the GWT ?

The Book of Revelation is made up of overlapping visions, with several containing the Second Coming. They all describe the event in different language.

We have the Olivet signs in Revelation 6 and those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.

We have the 7th trumpet, and the nations, and wrath, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11.

We have the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is similar to the parable of the wheat and tares.

He returns as a thief at Armegeddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also returns in chapter 19.

He also returns at the end of chapter 20.

All of the above are visions of the same event, which occur at His Second Coming.

.

Erik Nelson · Jul 23, 2018

Dave L said:
Jesus says his kingdom is not of this world. It comes without observation. It is within you. One must be born again to see it.

The only other world he mentions is the world to come. And your physical kingdom with death, suffering and anarchy does not fit there either.

Perhaps during the Millennium the spiritual Kingdom becomes so pervasive in society as to become visible ?

Matt 5 says the Law is in full effect until "heaven & earth pass away". If Christians are not under the Law... then "heaven & earth have passed away".

Isaiah 65 says God will destroy the old covenant people and create a new people with a new name, in a "new heavens & new earth". Aren't Christians of the New Covenant the new people with new name? Yes? Then God has already created a "new heaven & new earth"... which we would interpret as some sort of flowery, exaggerated, bombastic, apocalyptic language symbolizing a radical shift in religion, society, culture & government... as from OT (physical temple sacrifices) to NT Christianity & Church.

Perhaps the terms "new heaven & new earth" are just as abstract and symbolic as "everything else" in Revelation & apocalyptic prophesies ?

Douggg · Jul 23, 2018

Dave L said:
The kingdom is spiritual and reaches finality in Israel's resurrection/restoration on the last day. When we are resurrected in glorified spiritual bodies like Jesus' own body.

The Kingdom of God is not made up of spiritual nations.

Israel has been resurrected as a literal nation again. However, Israel, as far as religious belief and right standing with God is not restored in the spiritual sense because they have not embraced Jesus as the messiah, nor the way of salvation in him.

Erik Nelson · Jul 23, 2018

BABerean2 said:
The Book of Revelation is made up of overlapping visions, with several containing the Second Coming. They all describe the event in different language.

We have the Olivet signs in Revelation 6 and those hiding from the wrath of the Lamb.

We have the 7th trumpet, and the nations, and wrath, and the time of the judgment of the dead in Revelation 11.

We have the "harvest" of chapter 14, which is similar to the parable of the wheat and tares.

He returns as a thief at Armegeddon in Revelation 16:15-16, and He also returns in chapter 19.

He also returns at the end of chapter 20.

All of the above is the same event, which occurs at His Second Coming.

.

So Rev 19 == Rev 20:10 ?

But Rev 19 leads seamlessly into the defeat of the beast & false prophet, chaining of Satan, and Millennium

so Rev 19 precedes the Millennium...

yet depicts the 2nd coming after the Millennium ??

Dave L · Jul 23, 2018

Erik Nelson said:
Perhaps during the Millennium the spiritual Kingdom becomes so pervasive in society as to become visible ?

Matt 5 says the Law is in full effect until "heaven & earth pass away". If Christians are not under the Law... then "heaven & earth have passed away".

Isaiah 65 says God will destroy the old covenant people and create a new people with a new name, in a "new heavens & new earth". Aren't Christians of the New Covenant the new people with new name? Yes? Then God has already created a "new heaven & new earth"... which we would interpret as some sort of flowery, exaggerated, bombastic, apocalyptic language symbolizing a radical shift in religion, society, culture & government... as from OT (physical temple sacrifices) to NT Christianity & Church.

Perhaps the terms "new heaven & new earth" are just as abstract and symbolic as "everything else" in Revelation & apocalyptic prophesies ?

I think you are favoring Postmillennialism that in some extremes (reconstructionism and theonomy) would force a violent takeover of world governments. But even in its more biblical form, Postmillennialism results in a physical kingdom takeover through influence. So I reject it by saying the kingdom is spiritual only, and not of this world.

We have an influence in the world but we promote separation of church and state as a biblical policy as well as an American policy.

Dave L · Jul 23, 2018

Douggg said:
The Kingdom of God is not made up of spiritual nations.

Israel has been resurrected as a literal nation again. However, Israel, as far as religious belief and right standing with God is not restored in the spiritual sense because they have not embraced Jesus as the messiah, nor the way of salvation in him.

The physical State of Israel is not biblical Israel. Jesus and the church is. God removed the unbelieving Jews from Israel and grafted believing gentiles into their place. The only way they can reunite with Israel is through accepting Christ as the Messiah.

Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

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