LDS Mormons Call Them Saving Ordinances

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"So you say baptism is the new birth but people continue to walk according to the world? How can you say someone is born again, but still captive to Satan? How can you say that non-Mormon baptism gives a person the new birth? Mormons don't recognize non-Mormon baptisms! Why do missionaries baptize unbelievers?"

He is the way, you ignored my four questions.
 
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He is the way

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It's not my fault if you can't distinguish between operating a for-profit tourist trap in Hawaii (what your religion does) and operating a non-profit hospital in Kenya or a non-profit orphanage in Bolivia (what my religion does).

Also, again, none of this changes the fact that your religion purposely hides its finances and openly tells its tithing members that they're going to use your tithes for whatever it wants to use them for, and there's nothing you can do about it. I've already given one example of a Coptic priest being fired (basically) for doing what your church does as a matter of course (making private, for-profit investments).

There's a world of difference between how your religion operates and how actual Christian churches operate.
Did the hospital and orphanage end up in the red or black? If they made a profit how much was it or is that a secret?
 
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He is the way

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They teach a tiny bit of Mormonism instead of the commandments of Christ.
(Book of Mormon | 2 Nephi 26:32)

32 And again, the Lord God hath commanded that men should not murder; that they should not lie; that they should not steal; that they should not take the name of the Lord their God in vain; that they should not envy; that they should not have malice; that they should not contend one with another; that they should not commit whoredoms; and that they should do none of these things; for whoso doeth them shall perish.
 
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He is the way

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Time is running out. There's a saying: "The road to hell is paved with good intentions." "Ye must be born again" so that you recognize that your works don't contribute to your status in the next life.
I am not seeking status.
 
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He is the way

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"So you say baptism is the new birth but people continue to walk according to the world? How can you say someone is born again, but still captive to Satan? How can you say that non-Mormon baptism gives a person the new birth? Mormons don't recognize non-Mormon baptisms! Why do missionaries baptize unbelievers?"

He is the way, you ignored my four questions.
"So you say baptism is the new birth but people continue to walk according to the world?" Agency

"How can you say someone is born again, but still captive to Satan?" Same answer.

"How can you say that non-Mormon baptism gives a person the new birth?" It doesn't because of lack of authority:

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:5)

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

"Why do missionaries baptize unbelievers?" They don't.
 
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dzheremi

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Did the hospital and orphanage end up in the red or black? If they made a profit how much was it or is that a secret?

What part of 'non-profit' makes this an appropriate question to you?

Quit being a troll.
 
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He is the way

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dzheremi

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I am not being a troll. Every hospital, whether non-profit or not, either makes a profit or takes a loss at the end of the year. The same thing would be true of an orphanage. It takes money to run them. Do they make their finances public?

https://www.nolo.com/legal-encyclopedia/taxes-nonprofit-corporation-earnings-30284.html

I am aware of this. "Non-profit" is not the same as "does not make a profit". It means "not conducted in order to make a profit." This is the same problem I had with your previous assertion of "they build buildings to make money." That's not true, and neither is whatever you're trying to imply now regarding Coptic orphanages and hospitals. We're not the Mormon Church-Corporation. We don't do for-profit 'church' businesses. Again, quit trolling.

I have no idea if the orphanage in Bolivia makes their finances public. There is a website for the diocese that I'm sure you can contact if you are interested. Given that the website has a wishlist for the diocese that includes things like AA batteries and insect repellent, I'm going to guess they are not rolling in the dough.

Also I have met a few people at the church in Arizona who have volunteered in Bolivia, and they say that it is an extremely modest operation. From all the video or photo evidence I've seen, this is an accurate way to describe it. They will have been in Bolivia for 18 years as of this coming December and it still seems very modest, with a cathedral and chapel (I don't know about individual parishes in the country; I've seen video of the liturgy being celebrated outside of La Paz celebrated in the open, as in Portachuelo, so I'm guessing they don't have a lot of individual buildings yet), but also a medical/dental center and pharmacy, the orphanage, and other humanitarian efforts connected to the diocese.

Here is a video overview:

 
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He is the way

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I am aware of this. "Non-profit" is not the same as "does not make a profit". It means "not conducted in order to make a profit." This is the same problem I had with your previous assertion of "they build buildings to make money." That's not true, and neither is whatever you're trying to imply now regarding Coptic orphanages and hospitals. We're not the Mormon Church-Corporation. We don't do for-profit 'church' businesses. Again, quit trolling.

I have no idea if the orphanage in Bolivia makes their finances public. There is a website for the diocese that I'm sure you can contact if you are interested. Given that the website has a wishlist for the diocese that includes things like AA batteries and insect repellent, I'm going to guess they are not rolling in the dough.

Also I have met a few people at the church in Arizona who have volunteered in Bolivia, and they say that it is an extremely modest operation. From all the video or photo evidence I've seen, this is an accurate way to describe it. They will have been in Bolivia for 18 years as of this coming December and it still seems very modest, with a cathedral and chapel (I don't know about individual parishes in the country; I've seen video of the liturgy being celebrated outside of La Paz celebrated in the open, as in Portachuelo, so I'm guessing they don't have a lot of individual buildings yet), but also a medical/dental center and pharmacy, the orphanage, and other humanitarian efforts connected to the diocese.

Here is a video overview:

[/MEDIA]
You are aware you were condemning the LDS Church for not making their finances public yet I didn't find anywhere that the Coptic Orthodox Church made their finances public either.
 
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BigDaddy4

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You are aware you were condemning the LDS Church for not making their finances public yet I didn't find anywhere that the Coptic Orthodox Church made their finances public either.
I don't know about the COC, or any other churches for that matter, but the churches I have been involved in will make their financial records available to the congregation at an annual church meeting in which they review the year's spending and approve the next year's budget. In addition, they are available UPON REQUEST to the public. But if you searched their respective web sites, it would not be posted there.

HUGE difference from the lds church. Request denied.
 
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dzheremi

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I don't know about the COC, or any other churches for that matter, but the churches I have been involved in will make their financial records available to the congregation at an annual church meeting in which they review the year's spending and approve the next year's budget. In addition, they are available UPON REQUEST to the public. But if you searched their respective web sites, it would not be posted there.

HUGE difference from the lds church. Request denied.

Exactly this. Not only are the finances disclosed for all individual projects and programs (i.e., the programs that the diocese runs) within the diocese newsletter, as I've already written about, if you donate and it's somehow not clear to you already, you can ask about where your money is specifically going and they'll tell you. When I donated to the monastery I was visiting and doing fieldwork in a few years ago (since I had budgeted for a hotel, but they were having none of that), I asked them what they needed in specific terms and based my donation amount on that, in addition to purchasing things from their bookstore, which also goes right back into the running of the monastery and the churches connected to it. If I remember correctly (this was already ~5 years ago), the money I donated went to helping to renovate an old church they had recently purchased that used to be Roman Catholic, so that it could be acceptable for Orthodox worship (since we don't do statues or organs, there was a lot that had to be removed).

It's really not hard to just be honest with people, which makes the fact that the Mormon Church refuses to do that seem really slimy.
 
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dzheremi

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You are aware you were condemning the LDS Church for not making their finances public yet I didn't find anywhere that the Coptic Orthodox Church made their finances public either.

Because you're looking on the internet, and I guess that's not where the information is. We're a very small church in the USA, after all. Maybe 200 parishes in the entire country, at last count. (Which sounds like a lot, but when you compare it to Catholic, Protestant, or Eastern Orthodox, it isn't.)

I mean, it took me a little while before I was able to find the average salary for our priests (which again, was $8K lower than the national average), and that was more or less at random (at the LinkedIn page), so maybe it's out there somewhere and you and I just don't know it. If I knew where it was, I'd link you to it myself, as I already have with regard to the contact for the diocese in Bolivia, the discussion on Tasbeha.org concerning priest's salaries and benefits, and so on. I am very open about all this, because I trust my Church as an institution. I don't believe it would have existed for 2,000 years in such a harsh environment as Egypt (and Libya and Sudan) if it weren't built on a solid foundation of Christ and the apostolic teachings, not profit-minded business acumen.

The name of the game is transparency. The Mormon Church is purposely not transparent. That's different than just being small/new, having most of your resources in a foreign language (Arabic), or whatever other factors might be impacting the search for more info about Coptic finances. Again, I've personally spoken to bishops and monks regarding this stuff, and they've never shied away from it. There's no reason to.

But I would say at the point when your Church is operating vast ranches, for-profit tourist locations, and other similar places, then they naturally invite more scrutiny, and they ought to be able to handle that appropriately, instead of acting as shady as they do. In other words: If the Coptic Orthodox Church -- or any other church, for that matter -- were operating "Coptic Disneyland", or had some giant ranch covering half of New Jersey or wherever, or had a bunch of real estate companies in some kind of investment portfolio of for-profit businesses that it runs, then I'd be making the same argument about them. None of this occurs in a vacuum. Your church is getting the criticism it is from me because of how it operates itself like a for-profit corporation. That has no analogue in how the vast majority of Christian churches operate. You can certainly dredge up mega-churches that are basically like malls, but that's not the majority of churches in the world, whereas the LDS church operates as it does not because some small fraction of it has gotten out of control with commercialism replacing faith, but because that's how it sees fit to operate as a matter of principle. Were that not the case, it would not have its hands in so many different money-making ventures. That's a huge difference, and you're not addressing it by continuing to ask me about my own Church's finances. The ethos is entirely different.
 
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Rescued One

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"So you say baptism is the new birth but people continue to walk according to the world?" Agency

Then your statement that baptism is the new birth isn't true at all.

"How can you say someone is born again, but still captive to Satan?" Same answer.

That is not biblical.

"How can you say that non-Mormon baptism gives a person the new birth?" It doesn't because of lack of authority:

(New Testament | 2 Timothy 3:5)

5 Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.

Thank you. That's true Mormonism.

"Why do missionaries baptize unbelievers?" They don't.

They did when members of my family of origin were baptized!
 
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BigDaddy4

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The name of the game is transparency. The Mormon Church is purposely not transparent.
I agree. Which seems they conveniently forget about their Articles of Faith #12 and 13.

12 We believe in being subject to kings, presidents, rulers, and magistrates, in obeying, honoring, and sustaining the law.

13 We believe in being honest, true, chaste, benevolent, virtuous, and in doing good to all men; indeed, we may say that we follow the admonition of Paul—We believe all things, we hope all things, we have endured many things, and hope to be able to endure all things. If there is anything virtuous, lovely, or of good report or praiseworthy, we seek after these things.
 
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He is the way

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Exactly this. Not only are the finances disclosed for all individual projects and programs (i.e., the programs that the diocese runs) within the diocese newsletter, as I've already written about, if you donate and it's somehow not clear to you already, you can ask about where your money is specifically going and they'll tell you. When I donated to the monastery I was visiting and doing fieldwork in a few years ago (since I had budgeted for a hotel, but they were having none of that), I asked them what they needed in specific terms and based my donation amount on that, in addition to purchasing things from their bookstore, which also goes right back into the running of the monastery and the churches connected to it. If I remember correctly (this was already ~5 years ago), the money I donated went to helping to renovate an old church they had recently purchased that used to be Roman Catholic, so that it could be acceptable for Orthodox worship (since we don't do statues or organs, there was a lot that had to be removed).

It's really not hard to just be honest with people, which makes the fact that the Mormon Church refuses to do that seem really slimy.
Most tax-exempt organizations are required to file the IRS Form 990, an informationreturn that is open to the public. ... However, churches are exempt from filing the Form 990 and need not disclose any financial information to the IRS, the public, or their donors.

That being said the Bible states:
(New Testament | Matthew 6:1 - 4)

1 TAKE heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
 
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dzheremi

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Most tax-exempt organizations are required to file the IRS Form 990, an informationreturn that is open to the public. ... However, churches are exempt from filing the Form 990 and need not disclose any financial information to the IRS, the public, or their donors.

I'm not saying that you legally have to do anything. I'm not a lawyer. I am saying that if you are not transparent about what you are doing when it is known that you are involved with all kinds of for-profit ventures despite being 'non-profit' as a religion, it makes many people very leery of you, and rightly so. You're skirting the line between legal and illegal (recall my earlier point about the Church of Scientology once upon a time losing its tax exempt status for being a money-making operation that enriched its founder; there's no reason why something similar couldn't happen to Mormonism, albeit on slightly different grounds, since it's just not just one guy and his family at the top of the Mormon pyramid), and even the fact that something may be technically legal to do doesn't make most people okay with it.

That being said the Bible states:
(New Testament | Matthew 6:1 - 4)

1 TAKE heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven.
2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward.
3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:
4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.

Yeah, and that would be totally appropriate to cite if Mormons were giving tithes in order to brag before people about how much tithing they do. That's not what this discussion is about.
 
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He is the way

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Then your statement that baptism is the new birth isn't true at all.
Baptism is the new birth:

(New Testament | John 3:5 - 7)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again........
(New Testament | John 3:22 - 23)

22 ¶ After these things came Jesus and his disciples into the land of Judæa; and there he tarried with them, and baptized.
23 ¶ And John also was baptizing in ænon near to Salim, because there was much water there: and they came, and were baptized.

Those who have been baptized are still able to sin:

(Old Testament | Proverbs 26:10 - 11)

10 The great God that formed all things both rewardeth the fool, and rewardeth transgressors.
11 As a dog returneth to his vomit, so a fool returneth to his folly.

(New Testament | 2 Peter 2:20 - 22)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
 
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dzheremi

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A couple of choice quotes from Mormon Think:

“It might seem strange, almost slightly blasphemous, to refer to a church as a corporation, but the analogy here is simply inescapable. The Church is undeniably corporate.”

- Jeffery Kaye, “An Invisible Empire: Mormon Money in California,” New West, May 8, 1978, p. 39

“Over a fifteen-year period [in the late 1800s], in what is known as the Cooperative Movement, the Mormons constructed over 200 miles of territorial railroad, a $300,00 woolen mill, a large cotton factory, a wholesale-retail concern with sales of $6,000,000 a year, more than 150 local general stores, and at least 500 local cooperative manufacturing and service enterprises... The most controversial aspect of this movement was the policy of expecting Latter-day Saints to give exclusive patronage to these church-and cooperatively-sponsored enterprises.”

- Leonard J. Arrington, LDS Historian, From Wilderness to Empire: The Role of Utah in Western Economic History, monograph no. 1, University of Utah Institute of American Studies, 1961, p. 16

The Edmunds-Tucker Act was passed in Congress in 1887 to attempt to break up the Mormon business conglomerate.

+++

Very interesting, isn't it? Can anyone think of any other time when the government had to step in to break up a business monopoly held by a particular church or religion? I can't. Even in places with high concentrations of Catholics, for instance, I am unaware of there ever being a sort of "Catholic business bloc" that cajoled people of that faith to patronize only Catholic-owned businesses, and much less that the Roman Catholic Church at any level would have demanded as such. I could see that in, say, Franco's Spain (as it was marked by a reverse of the secularization that had characterized earlier eras, and heavily emphasized its fervent Catholicism), but that's just it: that was an actual authoritarian regime, with ties to the fascist phalange and a one-party, dictatorial rule.

So...not a super great thing to resemble in any respect. But the Mormon Church remains just as corporate now, despite not being able to maintain a monopoly. (It has to do so in other, less prosecutable ways, I guess, like by instilling fear in its members concerning the trustworthiness or safety of consulting non-Mormon sources over the filtered search at LDS.org or other church-run websites.)
 
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He is the way

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I'm not saying that you legally have to do anything. I'm not a lawyer. I am saying that if you are not transparent about what you are doing when it is known that you are involved with all kinds of for-profit ventures despite being 'non-profit' as a religion, it makes many people very leery of you, and rightly so. You're skirting the line between legal and illegal (recall my earlier point about the Church of Scientology once upon a time losing its tax exempt status for being a money-making operation that enriched its founder; there's no reason why something similar couldn't happen to Mormonism, albeit on slightly different grounds, since it's just not just one guy and his family at the top of the Mormon pyramid), and even the fact that something may be technically legal to do doesn't make most people okay with it.



Yeah, and that would be totally appropriate to cite if Mormons were giving tithes in order to brag before people about how much tithing they do. That's not what this discussion is about.
People are funny that way, they assume that if someone does something in secret it must be something bad. Jesus did things in secret.

(New Testament | Matthew 8:4)

4 And Jesus saith unto him, See thou tell no man; but go thy way, shew thyself to the priest, and offer the gift that Moses commanded, for a testimony unto them.

(New Testament | Matthew 16:20)

20 Then charged he his disciples that they should tell no man that he was Jesus the Christ.

(New Testament | Matthew 17:9)

9 And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.

(New Testament | Luke 8:54 - 56)

54 And he put them all out, and took her by the hand, and called, saying, Maid, arise.
55 And her spirit came again, and she arose straightway: and he commanded to give her meat.
56 And her parents were astonished: but he charged them that they should tell no man what was done.
 
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dzheremi

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News flash: The leaders of your corporate church are not Jesus, and their taking other people's money and doing whatever they want with it is in no way analogous to Christ's commanding that those He performed miracles before keep silent. The Mormon Church taking in tithes is not a miracle.
 
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