Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2018

Dave L said:
You are making God a liar when you say Jeconiah is a non issue. Because God never contradicts his word. If he does, let's ditch our bibles now.

https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/blood-curse-jeconiah/

Douggg · Jul 9, 2018

Dave L said:
The fact is, Jesus is both Priest and King according to Hebrews. But being from Judah, he cannot be a priest in Jerusalem, that is Levite territory. But he is both Priest and King in heavenly Jerusalem above according to Acts 2:30-33 where Peter says Jesus' resurrection placed him on David's throne, at the right hand of God.

No, Acts 2:30-33 is not saying David's throne is at the right hand of God in heaven.

Here's what the verse says..

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Jesus has been raised up, in spite of being rejected by that generation of Jerusalem and the Jews to be their king by putting him to death, to sit on David's throne - when He returns to earth and fulfills Ezekiel 37.

When Jesus ascended to heaven, He sits in the midst of God's Throne - not David's throne, which is here on earth. As David has never ruled from heaven.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Jerusalem will not see Jesus again - until they say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord - welcoming Him as their King, Lord, and Savior.

Dave L · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
No, Acts 2:30-33 is not saying David's throne is at the right hand of God in heaven.

Here's what the verse says..

30 Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;

Jesus has been raise up, in spite of being rejected by that generation of Jerusalem and the Jews to be their king, to sit on David's throne by putting Him to death - when He returns to earth and fulfills Ezekiel 37.

When Jesus ascended to heaven, He sits in the midst of God's Throne - not David's throne, which is here on earth. As David has never ruled from heaven.
_______________________________________________________________________________

Jerusalem will not see Jesus again - until they say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord - welcoming Him as their King, Lord, and Savior.

This is not a complete representation of what Peter said. Please consider ALL that he said.

“So then, because he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn to him with an oath to seat one of his descendants on his throne, David by foreseeing this spoke about the resurrection of the Christ, that he was neither abandoned to Hades, nor did his body experience decay.” (Acts 2:30–31)

Dave L · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
https://reasonsforhopejesus.com/blood-curse-jeconiah/

Jesus was a descendant of Jeconiah through Shealtiel and Zerubbabel (legally through Joseph Matthew 1:12 or genetically through Mary Luke 3:27).

Dave L · Jul 9, 2018

seventysevens said:
This is evidence that you really have no clue and no understanding at all of this matter - I don't have time at this moment to show your folly , but this is ridiculous - you have no idea of what this is all about - elementary simple- IF God did not want people to be part of a physical kingdom he would not have created a physical earth , he would not be saying that he will create a new earth that IS physical for HIS Family to live on , a kingdom that cannot be seen ? Ridiculous !
The 1000 years has been explained again and again but you cannot absorbed that which you do not understand , you choose to be spiritually blinded - The glorified body IS a Physical body Like Jesus has after he rose from the grave , He asked Thomas to put his hand in his side to feel the wounds - In the future people will ask Jesus where did he get the wounds in his body , as they SEE those wounds !
there will be animals in the new earth , guess you think they are ghosts too eh ?
People that are born again are part if the family of God that will have physical bodies that never die , but can eat food , you'll likely come up with some type of ghostly food as well

Before we go on to the rapture , you need to address what a spiritual world looks like , how does a glorified touchable body navigate a world it cannot see

Your entire end time theory rests on a Pre-trib Rapture you cannot support from scripture. If LaHaye and Walvoord cannot do it, and admit this, as I've already provided quotes from their own writings, certainly you cannot produce the needed support to make it Biblical.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2018

Dave L said:
Your entire end time theory rests on a Pre-trib Rapture you cannot support from scripture. If LaHaye and Walvoord cannot do it, and admit this, as I've already provided quotes from their own writings, certainly you cannot produce the needed support to make it Biblical.

Dave, are you saying the resurrection/rapture cannot possibly happen before the 70th week begins?

Dave L · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
Dave, are you saying the resurrection/rapture cannot possibly happen before the 70th week begins?

If you believe the 70 weeks are consecutive, as written, the rapture happens just as Paul said. After the resurrection of the believers in Christ on earth's last day.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)
There is no gap in the 70 weeks. If there was they wouldn't be 70 weeks but 1,000,070 weeks or much more.

Dave L · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
Dave, are you saying the resurrection/rapture cannot possibly happen before the 70th week begins?

It happens at the end of the world on the last day.

seventysevens · Jul 9, 2018

Dave L said:
Your entire end time theory rests on a Pre-trib Rapture you cannot support from scripture. If LaHaye and Walvoord cannot do it, and admit this, as I've already provided quotes from their own writings, certainly you cannot produce the needed support to make it Biblical.

This is the typical nonsense that comes from people that have no real understanding of the Holy bible , you make claims that make no sense and when asked to prove it with scripture you have a single verse that still does not apply , FACT is that even if there was no rapture at all everything I have said is 100% factual and provable without a rapture , because most of it is not associated with a rapture , you have failed miserably at every aspect of your thread , and the only reason you want to focus on the rapture is to drift away from all the fallacies that you have stated

EVERY question asked of you , you have failed to accurately provide any scripture - simplicity speaks , there is no reason to create a new earth if no physical people would live on it !
Scripture is VERY clear about a PHYSICAL earth with plant life , animal life and people living on the new earth .
Animals will eat plants , the lamb will lie down with the Wolf , many many scriptures that give a VIVID detail of PHYSICAL Life - born again believers will have a glorified BODY- that does not need sleep , can have the pleasure of tasting food , the ghosts you believe in can't do that , your beliefs are indeed part of the apostasy/rebellion

claninja · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
"sleeping" in christ means that a person has died and their soul has gone to be with the Lord. The body is what "sleeps". The soul is alive, and never dies.

When the resurrection/rapture of 1Thessalonians4:15-18 and 1Thessalonians5:9-11 takes place, the souls of past Christians accompany Jesus to that glorious event and will be reunited with their resurrected bodies; and the living translated, both changed to their eternal incorruptible bodies - and go with Jesus to heaven, to always be with the Lord. As the great tribulation takes place here on earth.

At the end of the great tribulation, they will return to this earth with Jesus to reign and rule upon the earth with Him, serving Jesus.

1 Thessalonians 4:13-14 But we do not want you to be uninformed, brothers, about those who are asleep (κοιμάομαι), that you may not grieve as others do who have no hope. For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so, through Jesus, God will bring with him those who have fallen asleep (κοιμάομαι). For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord,d that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep (κοιμάομαι)

Greek word for sleep in this passage: κοιμάομαι (koimaó): sleep, figuratively of physical death

1 Thessalonians 5:5-10 For you are all children of light, children of the day. We are not of the night or of the darkness. So then let us not sleep (καθεύδω), as others do, but let us keep awake (γρηγορέω) and be sober. For those who sleep (καθεύδω), sleep (καθεύδω) at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation. For God has not destined us for wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, who died for us so that whether we are awake (γρηγορέω) or asleep (καθεύδω) we might live with him.

Greek for sleep in this passage: καθεύδω (katheudó): sleep; yield to sloth and sin

Greek for awake in this passage: γρηγορέω (grégoreó): watchful, alert

It must be noticed here, that the Greek verb for sleep in 1 Thessalonians 4 is different than the Greek verb for sleep in 1 Thessalonians 5. The context of 1 Thessalonians 4 determines that the Greek word for sleep is figurative of physical death. It can also be verified, through multiple scriptures that this Greek word for sleep, κοιμάομαι (koimaó), can mean physical death (Matthew 27:52, 1 Corinthians 15:20, Acts 7:50, Acts 13:36, John 11:11). Aside from the definition of literal sleep, it is typically used specifically for believers or saints who have physically died. However, nowhere in scripture is this Greek word for sleep translated as spiritually asleep or dead.

When Paul moves on to 1 Thessalonians 5, he is no longer using the same Greek word for sleep that he used in 1 Thessalonians 4. He begins to use the Greek word καθεύδω (katheudó), which can be used figuratively for yielding to sin. Aside from the definition of literal sleep, it is also used to describe those who yield to sin (ephesians 5:8-14, 1 thessalonians 5:5-9). However, nowhere in scripture is this Greek word used to describe physical death.

1 Thessalonians 5:10 who died for us so that whether WE are awake or asleep WE might live with him

With this is mind, what does Paul mean when he states whether we are ‘alive’ or ‘asleep’ we might live with him, that is Christ? In this context does it mean that while our fleshly bodies are alive we live with Christ and while our fleshly body is dead (sleeps) our immortal soul immediately goes to live with Christ? No. we cannot impart meanings on to words, when the meaning doesn’t exist. The context of 1 thessalonians 5 uses the Greek word καθεύδω for those who yield to sin. It contrasts the Greek word sleep with the Greek word for ‘awake’, which in this context does not mean alive, but watchful or alert.

It is important to know that WE, the sons of the light, are not perfect 100% of the time. We fail and yield to sin. Our faith is weak sometimes and strong others. It is also important to know that God has his elect, who may be currently sleeping, but will awake. It is also important to know that our works do not save us, for even if our unfaithful works are burned up with fire and do not remain, we are still saved.

1 corinthians 3: 12-15 Now if anyone builds on the foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, straw— each one’s work will become manifest, for the Day will disclose it, because it will be revealed by fire, and the fire will test what sort of work each one has done. If the work that anyone has built on the foundation survives, he will receive a reward. If anyone’s work is burned up, he will suffer loss, though he himself will be saved, but only as through fire.

For our salvation is not of our own doing, but of God’s. Therefore, whether we are awake and alert, with full armor of God or are sleeping, and yield to sin in our weakness, we live with Christ. For either way, our faithful works or unfaithful works do not save, but God alone saves us through his son, the Christ.

For even though we at times fail Christ, he will never fail us and our failings can never separate us from the love of God.

Romans 8:38-39 For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor principalities, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord.

claninja · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
Jerusalem will not see Jesus again - until they say, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord - welcoming Him as their King, Lord, and

‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’ is from psalm 118. This is a part of the Halel that is recited every year especially during Passover, Pentecost, and tabernacles. The Jews continued to recite this even after jesus gave this prophecy, so I don’t believe your interpretation is correct, otherwise, Jesus would have returned the next time the Jews recited this at the next big festival.

Revealing Times · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
No, I don't have it backwards. The 144,000 are sealed before the great tribulation begins. Once the great tribulation begins, the great multitude are them who die during the great tribulation.

Yes you have it backwards brother, you think the Saints in Rev. 7:9 are people that died during the 70th week, and that is just not true. The Repented Jews Flee Judea at the 1290, or 30 days before the 1260. If you notice they are SEALED before God brings the Trumpet Wrath via hurting the Sea, Earth and the Trees. Thus they flee before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem, but they are SEALED just before the Trumpet Judgments start, if you do not believe me go look to see what the Trumpet Judgments do !! They kill 1/3 of Sea Creatures, and turn 1/3 of the Sea into blood. They burn 1/3 of the Trees up and they bring Plagues upon all the Earth.

These are only the 1/3 of the Jews who REPENTED and thus obeyed Jesus and FLED Judea. There is no 144,000, because 1/3 of the Jews i Israel would be 2 Million people at least, it could be speaking about all Jews in the world, but I think its the 2 Million in Israel who repent and then Flee Judea.

Douggg said:
If the great multitude were the resurrected/raptured saints - prior to the great tribulation beginning - they would be seen (having been raptured) before the 144,000 are sealed. The purpose of sealing the 144,000 is that they are about to enter the great tribulation - which the great multitude will die during it.

The Rapture happens before the 70th Week starts, you should know that brother. We see John being Raptured in Rev. 4:1 as a TYPE, that is when John will be Raptured, as one of the Dead in Christ, but that happens before the 70th week. The Church is Raptured before the 70th Week in full. The 144,000 are not going to be hurt by the Great Tribulation, they are the Jews that Flee into the Wilderness, its not 144,000 Jewish preachers, NOWHERE does the bible say that. The greatest Troubles ever begin BEFORE they are Sealed, we see that the First Four Horses have already come to pass via Rev. ch. 6 !! Those that die in the Tribulation are raised up at Jesus Christs Second Coming and thus Judged via Rev. 20:4.

Douggg said:
Well, we've been through this before. The 360 days is not the issue. It is not a problem. 2520 days total, right? I know you agree with that.

If you didn't have the timing of two witnesses off - you could see why the timeframes are expressed differently and consistent with each other to be either in the first half or second half.

I don't have the timing of the Two-witnesses off brother, that I am 100 percent sure of.

The Two-witnesses die BEFORE the Beast dies.

2nd Woe Death = Two-witnesses dying.

7th Vial Death = The Beast dying.

So the since the Two-witnesses die BEFORE the Beast dies they also have to show up BEFORE the Beast comes onto the scene and Conquers Jerusalem. How can this simple math be so hard for an engineer to see ?

The 1335 is the Two-witnesses showing up 75 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem at the 1260 or in the middle of the week. It matches on BOTH ENDS that way !! Why do you think God orchestrated everything in the book of Revelation and everything in the End Times around a 1260 Day period ? And gave both the Beast and the Two-witnesses an "office/ministry" so to speak of that consists of exactly 1260 days each !!

Douggg said:
blue is in the first half - exactly the first half in days
sea green is in the second half - but not exactly 1260 day equivalent
red is the reason why - it doesn't say 1260 days in Rev 12:14 and 13:5.

everything in each line totals to 2520 days - seven years

The seven years
1260 days Rev 12:6 + time for the war in heaven Rev 12:7-9 + the time, times, half time Rev 12:14.

The seven years
1260 days Rev 11:3 + 3.5 days Rev 11:9 + 1256.5 days (42 months Revelation 13:5)

After they re dead their 1260 days of "Ministry" is finished, you adding 3.5 days is very peculiar to be honest.

We know that the Beast comes to power over the Mediterranean Sea Region & Israel in the Middle of the week. We know the Two-witnesses Ministry starts before the Anti-Christ Conquers Jerusalem and thus becomes the Beast.

Rapture of the Church, Church Age Ends.................Two- witnesses (2-W) show up at he 1335 which is 1185 days into the 70th Week or 75 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem in the Middle of the Week (AoD)..........1290 = the Abomination of Desolation this happens 1230 days into the 70th week, then the................ (MoW) 1260 = the Middle of the week where the Beast Conquers Jerusalem, it also just so happens to be 1260 days into the 70th Week and of course there will be 1260 days left for the Beast to rule Jerusalem !!

So we get this Below on a 7 Year Time-line:

Rapture..............2W at the 1335.....AoD at the 1290.....MoW at the 1260 The Jews are Scattered

....Everything else is the Day of the Lord for the next 3.5 years or Gods Wrath....Second Coming.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2018

claninja said:
‘Blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord’ is from psalm 118. This is a part of the Halel that is recited every year especially during Passover, Pentecost, and tabernacles. The Jews continued to recite this even after jesus gave this prophecy, so I don’t believe your interpretation is correct, otherwise, Jesus would have returned the next time the Jews recited this at the next big festival.

When Jesus said that - he implied it to be a reference to him, His Return. The Jews, if by custom say it every year - they are not saying it in regards to embracing Jesus.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2018

Dave L said:
If you believe the 70 weeks are consecutive, as written, the rapture happens just as Paul said. After the resurrection of the believers in Christ on earth's last day.

“For the Lord himself will come down from heaven with a shout of command, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be suddenly caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will always be with the Lord. Therefore encourage one another with these words.” (1 Thessalonians 4:16–18)
There is no gap in the 70 weeks. If there was they wouldn't be 70 weeks but 1,000,070 weeks or much more.

Dave L said:
t happens at the end of the world on the last day.

Thanks for your response. It is helpful to know your position.

But why do you quote 1Thessalonians4:18 ? There is no encouragement - zero - in your position. It is terribly depressing.

Revealing Times · Jul 9, 2018

keras said:
The 'Christendom' that you know is almost wholly deceived by the rapture theory. The Church that I belong to does not promote a rapture to heaven.
You are making a very big assumption of what Christians believe. Go to places that have been or are now persecuting Christians and try to teach 'rapture'. They will laugh at you.

Paul was persecuted and he taught the rapture. The only people who laugh at the truth are people that God laughs at for mocking Him.

keras said:
I pointed out a serious mistake of yours. You don't make any attempt to correct yourself.

I made no mistake, just because you are on the wrong end of my understandings, you seem to be on the wrong end of all the correct positions. If you want to restate what you were pointing towards I am sure I can set your mind at easy by explaining my understanding in a more voluminous manner, though I have trepidation's you will get it in the end.

keras said:
If you actually quoted scripture to prove your case, I would believe it. But you don't have any and you seem unable to say why the Lord would remove the last generation, when all before it have faced trials and sometimes terrible testing of their faith.

Its your job to learn these things, you are a grown up Christian, yet you are still on the milk. Wean yourself brother. But then again you can't, because already know all the facts. I do not particularly like wasting my time and thus repeating the same thing to people over and over so usually once I have had a session or 2 with someone I am finished with what I have to say. Jesus told his disciples to wipe the dust off their feet and move on, so I don't just keep on keeping on, I just stay away from those types if they already know it all usually.

keras said:
Another example of the arrogance and sheer foolish ignorance of one deceived by the rapture theory.

Another example of Anger by you is more telling. I usually leave a quip after a post where I have to disagree vehemently with someone. Its called an ice breaker brother. You might wanna try it sometimes, a little levity can go a long way some times.

Douggg · Jul 9, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Rapture of the Church, Church Age Ends.................Two- witnesses (2-W) show up at he 1335 which is 1185 days into the 70th Week or 75 days before the Beast Conquers Jerusalem in the Middle of the Week (AoD)..........1290 = the Abomination of Desolation this happens 1230 days into the 70th week, then the................ (MoW) 1260 = the Middle of the week where the Beast Conquers Jerusalem, it also just so happens to be 1260 days into the 70th Week and of course there will be 1260 days left for the Beast to rule Jerusalem !!

So we get this Below on a 7 Year Time-line:

Rapture..............2W at the 1335.....AoD at the 1290.....MoW at the 1260 The Jews are Scattered

RT, I will try to interpret what you wrote....

Rapture of the Church (pre-70th week).... Then the 70th week begins........then on day 1185 the two witnesses arrive......... then on day 1230 the abomination of desolation takes place.....then on day 1260 the beast conquers Jerusalem. The beast rules Jerusalem the remaining 1260 days of the 70th week.

Which, RT, would mean on your timeline, the two witnesses will be killed (day 1185 + 1260 days for their testimony time) on day 2475, near the end of the great tribulation, long after the Jews have fled to the wilderness, and the world in an apocalyptic state - which you are going to have the world exchanging presents over their deaths celebrating. Not hardly.

In Daniel 11, at that time, the beast will be being attacked from the south, then north, then the kings of the east. The middle east around Jerusalem will be in a state of war.

________________________________________________________________________________

And you have no explanation of why it says 42 months in one verse 11:2 and the very next verse 1260 days in 11:3. Nor why it says 42 months in 13:5. And a time, times, half time in 12:14.

BABerean2 · Jul 9, 2018

Revealing Times said:
Its your job to learn these things, you are a grown up Christian, yet you are still on the milk. Wean yourself brother.

Like the New Covenant promised to Israel and Judah in Jeremiah 31:31-34, which is found fulfilled by Christ during the first century in Hebrews 8:6-13, and Hebrews 10:16-18, which is specifically applied to the Church in Hebrews 12:18-24, and 2 Corinthians 3:6-8...

The New Covenant: Bob George

.

seventysevens · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
And you have no explanation of why it says 42 months in one verse 11:2 and the very next verse 1260 days in 11:3. Nor why it says 42 months in 13:5. And a time, times, half times in 12:14.

What is your explanation for it?
42 x 30 = 1260
time = 1 year times = 2 year half a time = 1/2 a year

Douggg · Jul 9, 2018

seventysevens said:
What is your explanation for it?
42 x 30 = 1260
time = 1 year times = 2 year half a time = 1/2 a year

Independent of bible prophecy
42 months x 30 days/month = 1260 days
a time, times, half time = 3 1/2 years

In bible prophecy, however, conversion does not apply because the timeframes are stated different for a reason(s). It is up to the reader the understand why. I have explained why.

Because of the different time expressions, the timeline of events can be put together and known - only in the one way that they can fit together.

seventysevens · Jul 9, 2018

Douggg said:
Independent of bible prophecy
42 months x 30 days/month = 1260 days
a time, times, half time = 3 1/2 years

In bible prophecy, however, conversion does not apply because the timeframes are stated different for a reason(s). It is up to the reader the understand why. I have explained why.

Because of the different time expressions, the timeline of events can be put together and known - only in the one way that they can fit together.

where did you explain this ?

Eschatological and Millennial Theories and their problems.

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