Reaching perfection

Southernscotty said:

No, I just wondered how many really feel that it is possible? I "myself" know that I am a great failure and that it is only by God's grace that I am saved. I do not wanna sin, However I still do. I overeat, I still have bouts of anger, I am a man and therefore I have looked twice or thrice and maybe four times at a lady in the store, Before realizing what I was doing and looking away. It is those physical sins that keep me from the belief that I personally can ever reach perfection physically. It is truly by His unmerited favor in my case. TRUST ME!!

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Man can't even manage the big sins ( obvious ones) never mind the little passing thoughts. Our righteousness is in Christ not in us. Keeping our sights on Him is what it's about and my belief is that is what is meant in scripture. Not that we physically can do it ( leads to self or religious righteousness) in these bodies but that it is attainable in Him and Him alone.. Stay in Christs plan, God knows there are enough distractions even there never mind this old flesh. Even if you catch yourself in the quick passing thoughts it's already to late, one more thing to confess up to.. No, in him we are pure in spirit, that's why we have to shed these bodies and get new ones. Our new bodies will be pure as the spirit is now and also eternal as our spirit is now.

Man has nothing to boast over at all.

Southernscotty said:

That is right, Without the indwelling Holy Spirit we are nothing but lost. It is working to change us and make us more Christlike and in many cases it really has it's work cut out :]

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Yes, and this work will be finished in this life....if you believe. Some feel they have the prize during the process/race...... Yet to the one who endures to the END.......the same shall be Saved.

You can get all the way out of the city......yet, if you stop and turn around before reaching the end.....you are as good as steak seasoning. Now was the wife "saved" all the way up until she turned around? I think not......she was still just running the race.

Southernscotty said:

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

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this may start some a digressed debate but could Paul's "become perfect" of Phil 3:12 be referring to the "when the perfect comes" of 1 Cor 13:10.

teteleiomai (τετελείωμαι) is the Phil 3:12 word in context and it is a verb where the 1 Cor 13:10 word is teleion (τέλειον) which is an adjective but acting as a substantive noun so its not "perfect" but "the perfect". these words are related and essentially one is the verb form of the other.

In Philippians Paul wants to "become perfect" and Corinthians Paul is awaiting "the perfect to come" Is the Corinthians text the goal that Paul is referring to? Some say "the perfect" has already come and it is the completion of the canon or initial wide spread of the early church. A more controversial interpretation because of its implication to the continued use of the gift of tongues is saying "the perfect" is a state you get in heaven after death or is an event analogous to the return of Christ such as the resurrection.

if these passages are talking about the same thing and "the perfect" is the latter interpretation then this is not something we are able to obtain and it is a goal only in the sense that it is the final destination but not in the sense that we can do it while on this earth. Paul "presses on" because his life is the race and each stride is meaningful and this perfected state is reward he will receive after his race is over.

We can get a glimpse of perfection thru sanctification. Methinks you misunderstood your pastor.

Southernscotty said:

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

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In such things, I don't trust our tendency to lean on our own understanding, but want to simply trust Christ's words (and these things are echoed in the epistles also) --

43“You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbori and hate your enemy.’ 44But I tell you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45that you may be children of your Father in heaven. He causes his sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46If you love those who love you, what reward will you get? Are not even the tax collectors doing that? 47And if you greet only your own people, what are you doing more than others? Do not even pagans do that? 48Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect."


Here I hear Him say to me to love my enemies, even if it's so high a standard that it is perfect, and I am content with that. We know God loved us so much that He sent His son to die for us even while we were still sinning against Him.

I don't want other abstractions about 'perfection' to replace His words to me, of course. When it's hard to love an enemy I pray, and with His aid, looking to Him, because of Him, focusing on Him, then we can, if we stay focused on Him, abiding in Him, remaining in Him, on the vine. But we can pray for aid to forgive when our hearts don't want to, I know He will help!

Southernscotty said:

Ok let's try this. A 20 year old man accepts Jesus as His Saviour. He was a former drug user and was hooked on inappropriate content and cigarettes. So he accepts Christ and is JUSTIFIED. Now comes the act of SANCTIFICATION and he gets delivered from drugs and inappropriate content and he is going to church and reading the bible and doing so well, Yet he tries and tries to quit smoking and even does for a few months, But he has a bad day and picks one up and so forth and on and on, Then he realizes he still cusses once in a while, So he repents and is working diligently in that area and does well, Then one day while he is smoking a cigarette, It hits him that he is really judgemental of others, so he repents and ask God for help so God starts working on his heart and he starts doing better. See this man is being sanctified by the Holy Spirit and even though he hasn't reached perfection physically, He is spiritually perfect

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This doesnt sound to me to be a spiritual or physically Perfect person. Yet, if he endures to the end, and believe.....he will be........

Southernscotty said:

His words are that there is a place of physical perfection that saints can reach. Perhaps I did but I know some others believe this as well as stated above :]

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If he believes that we can reach physical perfection before death and our transformation then I would have to debate that it is not Biblical. Even Paul struggled with the flesh. Most people attempt to refute this by saying this was BEFORE Paul was saved but that is not indicated within the context of the scripture. We all will struggle with sin until death and I really believe that. The one that perseveres to the end is not sinless but rather they continued the struggle against sin.

Southernscotty said:

Why is he not spiritually perfect??? He accepted Christ as His Saviour and Romans 10:9-13

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Note that we are talking about a fictional person.....as I would not talk about an actual soul. One who is Spiritually perfect, one not have the concept of sin in his being...... This is an identification that comes at the beginning of the End......as the End is NOT the beginning.... The crown of life is given to the one who endures to the end......not everyone who accept the path and enters the race.......but those who see it to it's end.

It will help to quote that Philippians 3 quote as a full passage (and of course one can read more than one translation; here's the NIV) --

1Further, my brothers and sisters, rejoice in the Lord! It is no trouble for me to write the same things to you again, and it is a safeguard for you. 2Watch out for those dogs, those evildoers, those mutilators of the flesh. 3For it is we who are the circumcision, we who serve God by his Spirit, who boast in Christ Jesus, and who put no confidence in the flesh— 4though I myself have reasons for such confidence.

If someone else thinks they have reasons to put confidence in the flesh, I have more: 5circumcised on the eighth day, of the people of Israel, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Hebrew of Hebrews; in regard to the law, a Pharisee; 6as for zeal, persecuting the church; as for righteousness based on the law, faultless.

7But whatever were gains to me I now consider loss for the sake of Christ. 8What is more, I consider everything a loss because of the surpassing worth of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them garbage, that I may gain Christ9and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith ina Christ—the righteousness that comes from God on the basis of faith. 10I want to know Christ—yes, to know the power of his resurrection and participation in his sufferings, becoming like him in his death, 11and so, somehow, attaining to the resurrection from the dead.

12Not that I have already obtained all this, or have already arrived at my goal, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13Brothers and sisters, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus.

[Following Paul’s Example]

15All of us, then, who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

17Join together in following my example, brothers and sisters, and just as you have us as a model, keep your eyes on those who live as we do. 18For, as I have often told you before and now tell you again even with tears, many live as enemies of the cross of Christ. 19Their destiny is destruction, their god is their stomach, and their glory is in their shame. Their mind is set on earthly things. 20But our citizenship is in heaven. And we eagerly await a Savior from there, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21who, by the power that enables him to bring everything under his control, will transform our lowly bodies so that they will be like his glorious body."

You are exactly right. No-one is perfect but God. Earthly life should consist of continuously turning away from imperfections, but we will never reach perfection, which belongs to God alone.

Southernscotty said:

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

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Jesus as a man triumphed over the world and sin. Through the Spirit of God, and growing in faith, a knowledgeable dependence, a man can also? Not based on his own merits or own will, but through the Spirit of God. Your Body is a Temple. Jesus lives inside of you.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works.

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Does someone know they are saved or were they just told that? Do they have a blind faith, a tradition or doctrine, or do they have a knowledgeable dependence? Faith is evidence of things unseen. Someone shows their faith by their works?

Works are not mandatory for salvation as it is a gift, but works will be there if it is real faith. For instance if someone has a true heart change moments before death, They can be saved and this is without works.
Eph 2:9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

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Apostle Paul didn't do anything for Salvation. He was saved through The Grace of God. He showed his Faith by his works.

Is your average Christian today like Apostle Paul or do they have a tradition and a doctrine they were taught? Apostle Paul was receiving cause and effect with the Spiritual. Faith is evidence of things unseen.

Rom 10:17 Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word about Christ.
Faith and works are mutual as they go together for the child of God, However grace is the free gift and it is by grace through faith

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What does that look like? Someone who has received Freedom from the Lord would display certain qualities and have certain fruit?

A backsliding Christian may not have been saved in the first place?