Reaching perfection

[Southernscotty]

This is true. however, are you to have us believe that death concludes the race? when Jesus stated the following? :
"And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?"

Well yes because only when we are set free from this physical body will we be perfect. Until then it is a fight of flesh against spirit.
You see we christians are in the spirit and sealed and perfect by Christ, but we also live in this earthly tent, So when we depart from it, We will inherit perfection completely because we will will not be attacked by the evils of desire

 

[Southernscotty]

No more I, But Christ that liveth in me. I of my own self can do nothing. Also note, that it is a personal interpretation that being Perfect, implies stopping thoughts and actions.....

Ok I see what is going on here. You are on the spiritual and as I stated earlier I was speaking of our physical walk being made perfect. I agree that spiritually we are perfect because we are in Christ :]

 

[Southernscotty]

Do you see what I am referring too ? We are perfect through Jesus Christ spiritually but our walk physically is being sanctified and we are becoming more Christlike as we grow we sin less

 

[RaymondG]

Well yes because only when we are set free from this physical body will we be perfect. Until then it is a fight of flesh against spirit.
You see we christians are in the spirit and sealed and perfect by Christ, but we also live in this earthly tent, So when we depart from it, We will inherit perfection completely because we will will not be attacked by the evils of desire

I like it. I only think it may be a mistake to look for changes after death, when the one in whom we believe has already conquered it. There is no repentance in the grave....so why not obtain all you can now? and skip death? It only requires belief:

""And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?""

All you say that happens after death, can happen before....the only difference in the two beliefs is that, for one, if it is wrong....it will be too late to change..as, again, there is no repentance in the grave.

 

[Southernscotty]

See you died to the "old man" spiritually and are a new man in Christ, However you are still battling a sin nature in the flesh so that is what I am referring too. He stated that there is a place where we can get to where we are walking sinless and I sure haven't found it yet. lol

 

[ubicaritas]

No friend, I heard loud and clear. He stated that there is a place of complete and finished sanctification here on earth. Where there is no longer any sin.

It really depends on the churches. Lutherans and Reformed don't believe we can be sinless here on earth. Methodists and Wesleyans believe it is possible to develop a complete hatred of sin and not sin voluntarily. Many non-denom/Pentecostal types simply believe sinning is a free-will choice. So it's complicated.

BTW, I believe the Methodist/Wesleyan/Pentecostal approach is not correct. People are sinners and will be so till they die and it's dangerous to think otherwise. Moral progress should not be confused with moral perfection.

 

[Senkaku]

to put it simply and bluntly; "be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect" and "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom"

1. why would Jesus command us to do something if we could not do it? that would make him unjust.
2. this statement is not an opinion or suggestion, it is a command, he says BE perfect.
3. the context to compare the righteousness of the pharisees is in comparison to their works. so for contrast, small example, one of the things the pharisees did was memorize the first 5 books of the bible, VERBATIM, every line, every word, they could quote without messing up, it was a requirement for becoming a pharisee.

in short, we are lying to ourselves and making excuses when we don't take the lord serious about these things.

 

[DamianWarS]

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

I see perfection as the goal and through Christ we have the power to do it... however I don't think anyone has actually reached that goal in this life, practically speaking then it's not something we can grasp but it also isn't something we should stop seeking.

 

[Southernscotty]

to put it simply and bluntly; "be perfect as your heavenly father is perfect" and "unless your righteousness surpasses that of the pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom"

1. why would Jesus command us to do something if we could not do it? that would make him unjust.
2. this statement is not an opinion or suggestion, it is a command, he says BE perfect.
3. the context to compare the righteousness of the pharisees is in comparison to their works. so for contrast, small example, one of the things the pharisees did was memorize the first 5 books of the bible, VERBATIM, every line, every word, they could quote without messing up, it was a requirement for becoming a pharisee.

in short, we are lying to ourselves and making excuses when we don't take the lord serious about these things.

Ok how do we ever reach it though? We try earnestly and we preach it, but have you or anyone you know ever reached it physically?

 

[HatGuy]

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

It's called the doctrine of "entire sanctification" and it's influence is John Wesley.

What kind of version this preacher was preaching I don't know, but the word 'perfection' is misleading in the English language and isn't exactly the same in Greek. The Greek word is something more on the lines of being 'mature' or fully grown.

As you know, you can become a grown-up and yet still have a lot of growing to do. That's the way "perfection" is taught in the scriptures and in good Wesleyan teaching.

"Entire sanctification" does not mean sinless perfection. What it means is 'perfect love' - a heart oriented toward perfect love. Scriptures like Ephesians 3:19, 4:13, 1 Thessalonians 5:23, and even Galatians 3:3 point to a kind of perfection.

Galatians 3:3
"Are you so foolish? Having begun by the Spirit, are you now being perfected by the flesh?"

This indicates that there is a 'perfecting' in view, but it's by the Spirit and not the Law (or works). Like Wesley said, justification is by faith, sanctification is by faith.

 

[Dave G.]

Ok how do we ever reach it though? We try earnestly and we preach it, but have you or anyone you know ever reached it physically?

That perfection is in our faith. The pharisees had 0.

 

[Senkaku]

Ok how do we ever reach it though? We try earnestly and we preach it, but have you or anyone you know ever reached it physically?

its not as difficult as it may seem...you yourself probably don't do some stuff that you used to, everyone does. when you are a kid you spill some drinks, fall down alot, bump your head...as you get older, not so much. you get better eventually and even if you aren't sinless you can always sin less, you feel me?

what makes it difficult is the new standard. Jesus is more concerned with your heart intentions and not your actions. it is no longer about what we do but WHY we do it (matthew 5). Giving to the poor doesn't make you good if your reason for giving is to look good. our struggle is not in works but our hearts.

 

[Southernscotty]

its not as difficult as it may seem...you yourself probably don't do some stuff that you used to, everyone does. when you are a kid you spill some drinks, fall down alot, bump your head...as you get older, not so much. you get better eventually and even if you aren't sinless you can always sin less, you feel me?

what makes it difficult is the new standard. Jesus is more concerned with your heart intentions and not your actions. it is no longer about what we do but WHY we do it (matthew 5). Giving to the poor doesn't make you good if your reason for giving is to look good. our struggle is not in works but our hearts.

Yes this being sanctified and it is growth, I agree but I do not believe we "reach" a perfect level of physical perfection because we do have the old sin nature. I do realize we are trying and pressing towards and seeking it, But the end result will be God grace that saves us all :]

 

[Dave G.]

Yes this being sanctified and it is growth, I agree but I do not believe we "reach" a perfect level of physical perfection because we do have the old sin nature. I do realize we are trying and pressing towards and seeking it, But the end result will be God grace that saves us all :]

I'll need an over abundant portion of that Grace LOL !

 

[Senkaku]

Yes this being sanctified and it is growth, I agree but I do not believe we "reach" a perfect level of physical perfection because we do have the old sin nature. I do realize we are trying and pressing towards and seeking it, But the end result will be God grace that saves us all :]

well, the problem with that is that we are commanded to do it, so technically speaking, it would make us rebellious by not obeying what has been commanded. it would also imply that God is a liar, since he has given us the power to over come sin and filled us with his spirit. so, after baptism, your flesh is dead, and when you rise, you are equipped to handle any and everything that comes your way and walk away victorious every single time....sin is a choice, period. we struggle, but it is not god's fault, he fulfilled the end of his bargain and gave us everything we need to get there. open doors, tools, empowerment, encouragement, etc...but we still like sin. until we hate sin, we won't overcome it, until we hate sin like the father does then it will continue to consume you. ever met someone who hated something? you think they want anything to do with it? think they even want to be around it?

we can get there, we just don't want to and until we admit it, we'll never overcome that. People like sin more than they like righteousness.

 

[RaymondG]

Ok how do we ever reach it though? We try earnestly and we preach it, but have you or anyone you know ever reached it physically?

Should we strive, in Christ, only for things that we have seen others accomplish? Should we say "It's in the bible, but there is no one i know that has done this, so I wont be able to either?"

I've never understood the benefits of this question.

 

[Southernscotty]

Should we strive, in Christ, only for things that we have seen others accomplish? Should we say "It's in the bible, but there is no one i know that has done this, so I wont be able to either?"

I've never understood the benefits of this question.

No, I just wondered how many really feel that it is possible? I "myself" know that I am a great failure and that it is only by God's grace that I am saved. I do not wanna sin, However I still do. I overeat, I still have bouts of anger, I am a man and therefore I have looked twice or thrice and maybe four times at a lady in the store, Before realizing what I was doing and looking away. It is those physical sins that keep me from the belief that I personally can ever reach perfection physically. It is truly by His unmerited favor in my case. TRUST ME!!

 

[aiki]

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Not sure how this pastor you mention would get to sinless perfection from what Paul wrote in this verse... If anything, the verse seems to suggest an ongoing process, not an achieved end.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?

Well, what about this verse then?:

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Wouldn't becoming a "new creation" entail receiving a new heart? Wouldn't the deceitful heart of the "old man" be part of what has "passed away"? If not, why not?

Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.

This verse indicates a struggle against the habits and mindset of the "old man," the carnal, fleshly person we were before we were saved. Paul seems to indicate in his letter to the Romans that the struggle against the impulses of the flesh is a struggle to live out our new nature in Christ in the face of the inertia of flesh-centered living which has characterized our life but to which we are now made dead (Romans 6:1-18). You shoot a charging bear in the heart and the momentum of his charge may still move him toward you even though he's dead. A sinful life has "momentum" that must be overcome, too, habits of thought and behaviour that must be reversed or abandoned. As a man "reckons" himself "dead to sin and alive unto God," he overcomes the inertia of his past, sinful life and will begin to live a life of holiness where sin becomes the rare exception rather than the rule. Too many modern believers, though, think that the Christian life is a tight circle of sin>confession>sin>confession, 'round and 'round until death. The possibility of a life lived largely free of sin, they have decided, is an impossibility. This isn't the attitude of Scripture, however.

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Romans 6:11-14
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

 

[RaymondG]

No, I just wondered how many really feel that it is possible? I "myself" know that I am a great failure and that it is only by God's grace that I am saved. I do not wanna sin, However I still do. I overeat, I still have bouts of anger, I am a man and therefore I have looked twice or thrice and maybe four times at a lady in the store, Before realizing what I was doing and looking away. It is those physical sins that keep me from the belief that I personally can ever reach perfection physically. It is truly by His unmerited favor in my case. TRUST ME!!

The first step is recognizing the shortcomings, the next is believing that they can be overcome...... They that walk in the spirit, no longer mind the things of the Flesh....and without the spirit....we are non of His.

 

[Southernscotty]

Not sure how this pastor you mention would get to sinless perfection from what Paul wrote in this verse... If anything, the verse seems to suggest an ongoing process, not an achieved end.



Well, what about this verse then?:

2 Corinthians 5:17
17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new.

Wouldn't becoming a "new creation" entail receiving a new heart? Wouldn't the deceitful heart of the "old man" be part of what has "passed away"? If not, why not?



This verse indicates a struggle against the habits and mindset of the "old man," the carnal, fleshly person we were before we were saved. Paul seems to indicate in his letter to the Romans that the struggle against the impulses of the flesh is a struggle to live out our new nature in Christ in the face of the inertia of flesh-centered living which has characterized our life but to which we are now made dead (Romans 6:1-18). You shoot a charging bear in the heart and the momentum of his charge may still move him toward you even though he's dead. A sinful life has "momentum" that must be overcome, too, habits of thought and behaviour that must be reversed or abandoned. As a man "reckons" himself "dead to sin and alive unto God," he overcomes the inertia of his past, sinful life and will begin to live a life of holiness where sin becomes the rare exception rather than the rule. Too many modern believers, though, think that the Christian life is a tight circle of sin>confession>sin>confession, 'round and 'round until death. The possibility of a life lived largely free of sin, they have decided, is an impossibility. This isn't the attitude of Scripture, however.

Romans 6:1-2
1 What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin that grace may abound?
2 Certainly not! How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?

Romans 6:11-14
11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
12 Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body, that you should obey it in its lusts.
13 And do not present your members as instruments of unrighteousness to sin, but present yourselves to God as being alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

Yes; but then again you are speaking in the spiritual sense. I agree with all this spiritually, But I am speaking of flesh and our walk in the physical world as others see us and us "physically" reaching perfection in our skin :]