Reaching perfection

[lsume]

No friend, I heard loud and clear. He stated that there is a place of complete and finished sanctification here on earth. Where there is no longer any sin.

I agree with the statement in yellow that is a bit hard to distinguish from the white for my old eyes. I’m referring to the one that states that Christ qualifies the chosen. I was called and later chosen and still failed in performing to the standards of perfect obedience. Any sin is failure so thank God The Father for Jesus The Christ. The statement in yellow states that Christ qualifies the called. Many are called but few are chosen.

Matt.22

1. [14] For many are called, but few are chosen.

 

[Southernscotty]

I agree with the statement in yellow that is a bit hard to distinguish from the white for my old eyes. I’m referring to the one that states that Christ qualifies the chosen. I was called and later chosen and still failed in performing to the standards of perfect obedience. Any sin is failure so thank God The Father for Jesus The Christ.

It says that september is suicide awareness month .. Friend there is none of perfect, We all fail. ONLY by Jesus Christ do we obtain any kind of righteousness and this is not of us, It is a gift :]

 

[lsume]

Thats not what he is saying. He’s saying the heart is deceitful and deceives the man and asking God to show him his sins and then he will know. We certainly can know our sins and those we sinned against very certainly know. Problem is we don’t want to know, not we can’t.
Well not sure about Enoch but otherwise we generally need His help, true.
We can all understand that. Does he also not notice when others take his stuff?
I think at a quiet and loving moment you need to tell him he not to do that anymore. I had to tell my daughter the same thing. She thought my kitchen offered her free shopping until i noticed my missing kitchen scissors in her kitchen. I asked her to ask me first.
Good thoughts but darts arent necessary.Amen. People can help cleanse us too.

Definitely ask God The Father to show you your sins. There is nothing hidden that won’t be revealed. When your sins are revealed by The Father, there is no doubt and no escape and true heartfelt repentance must occur.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Definitely ask God The Father to show you your sins. There is nothing hidden that won’t be revealed. When your sins are revealed by The Father, there is no doubt and no escape and true heartfelt repentance must occur.

Done it over a lifetime and you’re right. The point was it isn’t true that we can’t know. It’s we don’t want to know.

 

[lsume]

Done it over a lifetime and you’re right. The point was it isn’t true that we can’t know. It’s we don’t want to know.

Something that I’ve only recently started to do follows;
My wife and I celebrated our 45th wedding anniversary yesterday but that does not mean that she doesn’t know how to push my buttons. The Good Lord has taught me to pray for Him to reveal a hidden sin from my past that needs repentance which is a prayer that has always been answered immediately. Therefore, rather than exacerbating the situation, I now find myself in a state of deep repentance. Like aforementioned, that prayer thus far has always been answered. I expect this will continue till my death as I have many forgotten sins to repent for. Thus far, I don’t think that I have even scraped the surface of repenting for idle words that I’ve spoken.

 

[Dorothy Mae]

Something that I’ve only recently started to do follows;
My wife and I celebrated our 45th wedding anniversary yesterday but that does not mean that she doesn’t know how to push my buttons. The Good Lord has taught me to pray for Him to reveal a hidden sin from my past that needs repentance which is a prayer that has always been answered immediately. Therefore, rather than exacerbating the situation, I now find myself in a state of deep repentance. Like aforementioned, that prayer thus far has always been answered. I expect this will continue till my death as I have many forgotten sins to repent for. Thus far, I don’t think that I have even scraped the surface of repenting for idle words that I’ve spoken.

Very nice to hear and congratulations on 45 years together. We are only at 30.

 

[Shempster]

I actually sat through "part" of a church service where the minister spoke of being sanctified to a place of perfection in this life. This based off of Phil 3:12 Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus.
He stated that this shows there is a place of perfection available to us.

Now I personally do not feel this is possible for anyone to reach on this earth, and although we should strive for it, We will never reach that level.
Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things and beyond cure. Who can understand it?
Gal 5:17 For the flesh desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the flesh. They are in conflict with each other, so that you are not to do whatever you want.
These veres and many others tell me otherwise.

We are saved by grace through faith and this is without any type of works. It is a free gift; Even though with our faith will come works and the two are mutual.

I was curious as to others response on this because I have preached twice lately on pressing on toward the ultimate goal but I had never heard anyone take this ministers approach to this.

We are required to "be perfect" in LOVE. That is the context when Jesus said "Be Perfect". It is a command.
I'll agree it is utterly impossible to be perfect in all the church system demands, but being perfect IN LOVE is very possible.
So, how is it done? Here's the formula:

LOVE NOW.

Don't think about how you failed in the past and don't think about how you are going to love the boss in the future. Living in the past causes depression. Living in the future causes anxiety. Living IN THE MOMENT and LOVING IN THIS MOMENT causes peace and contentment.
It softens your enemies and dispels strife.

So right now, wherever you are and whoever you are with, simply LOVE. Love others, no matter who they are. Love God's creation. Don't abuse it and trash it. Love God's creatures. Love the Father by doing all this. If you always LOVE in the moment, you'll be perfect.

BlessUp.

S

 

[Undead]

Done it over a lifetime and you’re right. The point was it isn’t true that we can’t know. It’s we don’t want to know.

I must, unfortunately, once again disagree with you, and side with King David.

Psalm 19
12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;


Definition of presumptuous:
rude because of doing something although you know you do not have a right to do it:

"It would be presumptuous of me to speak for the others."

notice in verse 12 he is asking who can understand his errors? Then he asks God to cleanse him from secret faults.


Here is how to properly understand several KEY issues here:
1. He is asking a rhetorical question about who can understand his own errors.
No one can-- here is where you argue with me, yet the Scripture is clear, most sins we can be cognizant of, but SOME we cannot.
He goes on to ask The Lord to cleanse him from secret faults. Secret from whom? Are there any secrets from God? No, of course not, by deductive reasoning, we can deduce that they are secret to David!
He does not know what he is doing that is wrong 100% of the time.
Likewise Jesus asked The Father to forgive the Pharisees "because they know not what they do."
They thought they were doing something right by killing an alleged blasphemer (true or false?).
David did not ever want to be guilty of something like this.

Verse 13 is the contrast to verse 12 since presumptuous' definition includes the phraseology that we: "know you do not have a right to do it."

12: Sins I may not realize are sins.
13: Sins I know are sins, but willfully do them anyway.

Sorry, but there is simply no other way to interpret these two Scriptures which were divinely inspired by a man after God's own heart.



Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Psalm 12:6
6 The words of the Lord are pure words,
Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
Purified seven times.


I am surprised I have to break it down to such a granular level-- but there seems to be some point of contention that only you are making. (and I'm not sure why this is so important for you to make this point--which clearly is Scripturally inaccurate)

We grieve God with sins that we are not even aware of-- and the fact that you chose to interject "darts are unnecessary" reveals to me that you might enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. Any dart throwing would be from a young man in his mid 20's.
Are you correcting me, or correcting him about a hypothetical? Remember, I said something to the effect of perhaps he may have some darts to throw at me.
This is (unfortunately) something that some young people do.. It certainly was not and should not be construed that me bringing up the tiller in a fatherly way, would also automatically be a "dart". It would be in a fatherly growing manner--because, again, it is most probably a secret fault that he is/was unaware of. And it is a teaching opportunity for me to instill a fatherly bit of advice into his life.

So now I wonder what you will say about these two particular verses which PROVE we grieve God with secret sins -- where the only place the secret can lie is within ourselves since God is Omniscient.

I have never seen you back down or be wrong about anything in this thread yet--so it will be interesting to hear your spin on how it is possible for humans to be cognizant of each and every sin.

God bless you Dorothy, I eagerly await your reply with
bated breath.

In Jesus' Holy Name, Amen

 

[Dorothy Mae]

I must, unfortunately, once again disagree with you, and side with King David.

Psalm 19
12 Who can understand his errors?
Cleanse me from secret faults.
13 Keep back Your servant also from presumptuous sins;

I am afraid you are not reading all of what David wrote. In Ps 51:3 he wrote
For I know my transgressions,

and my sin is always before me.

4Against you, you only, have I sinned

and done what is evil in your sight;

So here we have an undeniable example of David knowing his sin and in fact, it was always before him. Being on David's side is taking all that he wrote, not just the bits one likes.

notice in verse 12 he is asking who can understand his errors? Then he asks God to cleanse him from secret faults.

Yes, nothing in that says David cannot know his sins once committed and what he otherwise writes shows that this is how it works.

Here is how to properly understand several KEY issues here:
1. He is asking a rhetorical question about who can understand his own errors.
No one can-- here is where you argue with me, yet the Scripture is clear, most sins we can be cognizant of, but SOME we cannot.

David does not say that there are some sins we cannot and can never know. He said that there are sinful ways in another place and asks God to cleanse him. Surely those who walk with God know what it is to have thoughts and act upon them only later realizing they were sin. This is not knowing in a way until committed.

He goes on to ask The Lord to cleanse him from secret faults. Secret from whom? Are there any secrets from God? No, of course not, by deductive reasoning, we can deduce that they are secret to David!

Only until committed and until the Holy Spirit shows us. Or one can put it this way, sometimes sin we commit is very clear to others but hidden from us. It is not a secret except to our own deceitful hearts.

He does not know what he is doing that is wrong 100% of the time.
Likewise Jesus asked The Father to forgive the Pharisees "because they know not what they do."
They thought they were doing something right by killing an alleged blasphemer (true or false?).
David did not ever want to be guilty of something like this.

Well, he wants to KNOW what his sin was and be cleansed of it. He was not proposing that there are some secret sins lerking about that only God knows cause it is a secret and no one else knows about. The holy spirit is really good at convicting of sin when we ask. Jesus said on the cross to forgive them (not just the phariseees) although it is doubtful God did. There is justice and he wiped out Jerusalem in 70 in an act of justice for this and other sins they committed and never repented

Verse 13 is the contrast to verse 12 since presumptuous' definition includes the phraseology that we: "know you do not have a right to do it."

12: Sins I may not realize are sins.
13: Sins I know are sins, but willfully do them anyway.

That is not how I read verse 12. "Faults" are sinful ways or we could call habits. David also prayed for God to cleanse him from sinful ways or tendencies. These are not things we do that we do not realize but sins that have become HOW we act habitually.

Sorry, but there is simply no other way to interpret these two Scriptures which were divinely inspired by a man after God's own heart.

Well, as you can see, yes there is another way to understand David if we read all of what he wrote.

Prov 30:5-6
5 Every word of God is pure: he is a shield unto them that put their trust in him.
6 Add thou not unto his words, lest he reprove thee, and thou be found a liar.

Psalm 12:6
6 The words of the Lord are pure words,
Like silver tried in a furnace of earth,
Purified seven times.

True but it is better to read all of what is written and not just bits.

I am surprised I have to break it down to such a granular level-- but there seems to be some point of contention that only you are making. (and I'm not sure why this is so important for you to make this point--which clearly is Scripturally inaccurate)

Well, I could write the same to you. Why it is important to you that there are secret sins that grieve God and He does not tell us? What does this say about the character of God? What does it say about the Holy Spirit and his job to convict men of sin?

Why am I bothered by laying this charge against God? Because I passionately love God and do not like false accusations layed against his character. He does convict of sin and if one asks for him to cleanse them, He can and will. It is not instant and He does not tell all at once usually, but we can trust HIm to convict us of sin and we can trust him to cleanse us if we repent.

We grieve God with sins that we are not even aware of--

I am fairly confidant that God tells us when He is grieved. Paul wrote not to grieve the Holy Spirit and so Paul did not assume we grieve God as a daily occurance

and the fact that you chose to interject "darts are unnecessary" reveals to me that you might enjoy arguing for the sake of arguing. Any dart throwing would be from a young man in his mid 20's.

When I talk with my children or they with me about things we have done the other does not like, we do not throw darts. We just talk. That is all I was saying. I was trying to be encouraging. You, after all, said he might throw darts. Can't he just talk?

And I agreed with you and complimented you on your post. Why do you throw the dart attacking my character as though I like arguing for arguing sake? Is this how you communicate on a normal level? If so, that sin is not so secret as you might believe.

Are you correcting me, or correcting him about a hypothetical? Remember, I said something to the effect of perhaps he may have some darts to throw at me.
This is (unfortunately) something that some young people do.. It certainly was not and should not be construed that me bringing up the tiller in a fatherly way, would also automatically be a "dart". It would be in a fatherly growing manner--because, again, it is most probably a secret fault that he is/was unaware of. And it is a teaching opportunity for me to instill a fatherly bit of advice into his life.

Yes I can see that and it is true that younger Americans I have talked with have learned that this is how one defends oneself, attack the character of the other. IT is in the culture now. I make a distinction between correction and darts. When you attacked my character above, that was a dart. If you do not want a dart thrown at you, you might not want to word your communication such that a dart is the response as you yourself threw one. When you disagreed with me in the opening line, it is was not a dart. It was not personal at all. That was better.

So now I wonder what you will say about these two particular verses which PROVE we grieve God with secret sins -- where the only place the secret can lie is within ourselves since God is Omniscient.

You can see above that I disagree and that David said in other places that he saw his sin. I disagree strongly because it is an affront to the Holy Spirit whose job is to convict of sin. It is an affront to the character of God that those who walk closely with Him do not know when and how they grieve him.

You know, I have to point out, that your grieving over your son taking your tiller is somewhat like what you are accusing God of. Just occured to me that you are attributing to God that which is really in you regarding your own son. Does this comfort you to think God too doesn't tell us our sins that destroy relationships we have with others? I think it better you comunicate with your son and I trust God communicates with us. I certainly know of times I have grieved him .

I have never seen you back down or be wrong about anything in this thread yet--so it will be interesting to hear your spin on how it is possible for humans to be cognizant of each and every sin.

I have backed down in other threads. Ask David Kent if that is so. I even apologize on occassion. But what you have done is insert an entirely different aspect to the matter, cognizant of each and every sin all the time. We never discussed that we are always cognizant of each and every sin as a topic. I have repeatedly said that if we ask the Holy SPirit to show us our sin, he will. That means that when he is done for the time, we are cognizant of each and every sin God wants to show us. We can trust that He is doing so. We do not need to worry that there is still some sin the Holy SPirit is unable to show us.

God bless you Dorothy, I eagerly await your reply with
bated breath.

I read this and literally smiled.

God bless you as well. I trust He will speak to you and bless you this day of rest.

Dorothy

 

[Jimbo Hall]

So many people are already defeated in their mind about being perfect or living holy. Why is that? Has some man deceive them with bad doctrine or do they just love their sin to the point of hating righteousness?
Let me first say the word "perfect" that is in the bible is not talking about being physically perfect, intellectually perfect, or having perfect grammar. It's talking about being morally perfect. Meaning what you know to do, you are doing. And what you know not to do, you are not doing.

Jesus commands for us to be perfect.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The context is talking about love. If we love like we should then we wouldn't sin against God or our neighbour.

Let's look at some examples of someone being perfect in the bible.
Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil.
So the Lord actually calls a man perfect in this bible verse. A man that doesn't have the blood of Jesus to cleanse his heart and he hasn't been filled with the Holy Ghost, but yet God calls him perfect. How much more should we be perfect?

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Here we see that Noah was called perfect in his generation. But we know that Noah sinned and got drunk after he was called perfect. So being perfect doesn't mean you lose the ability to sin.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
So we see here that John the baptist parents were living in a way that I would say they were morally perfect before God.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
Paul believed that he could present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. That is exciting to me.

But I fear for people in this day and age. So many are defeated in their mind not believing Jesus can set them free from sin, but that they have to continue in sin until the day they die. What kind of faith is that? A weak one!

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Jude 1:24 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save His people from their sins.

Jesus is the great Saviour who saves people FROM their sins, not IN their sins.
What kind of saviour would save someone but yet leave them in the very thing he saved them from? Not my Saviour! He saved and washes sins away!
Praise His holy name!

 

[Dorothy Mae]

So many people are already defeated in their mind about being perfect or living holy. Why is that? Has some man deceive them with bad doctrine or do they just love their sin to the point of hating righteousness?
Let me first say the word "perfect" that is in the bible is not talking about being physically perfect, intellectually perfect, or having perfect grammar. It's talking about being morally perfect. Meaning what you know to do, you are doing. And what you know not to do, you are not doing.

Jesus commands for us to be perfect.
Matthew 5:48 Be ye therefore perfect, even as your Father which is in heaven is perfect.
The context is talking about love. If we love like we should then we wouldn't sin against God or our neighbour.

Let's look at some examples of someone being perfect in the bible.
Job 1:8 And the Lord said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil.
So the Lord actually calls a man perfect in this bible verse. A man that doesn't have the blood of Jesus to cleanse his heart and he hasn't been filled with the Holy Ghost, but yet God calls him perfect. How much more should we be perfect?

Genesis 6:9 These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.
Here we see that Noah was called perfect in his generation. But we know that Noah sinned and got drunk after he was called perfect. So being perfect doesn't mean you lose the ability to sin.

Luke 1:6 And they were both righteous before God, walking in all the commandments and ordinances of the Lord blameless.
So we see here that John the baptist parents were living in a way that I would say they were morally perfect before God.

Colossians 1:28 Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus.
Paul believed that he could present every man perfect in Christ Jesus. That is exciting to me.

But I fear for people in this day and age. So many are defeated in their mind not believing Jesus can set them free from sin, but that they have to continue in sin until the day they die. What kind of faith is that? A weak one!

Romans 6:22 But now being made free from sin, and become servants to God, ye have your fruit unto holiness, and the end everlasting life.

Jude 1:24 Now unto Him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of His glory with exceeding joy,

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whosoever committeth sin is the servant of sin. 35 And the servant abideth not in the house forever: but the Son abideth ever. 36 If the Son therefore shall make you free, ye shall be free indeed.

Matthew 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save His people from their sins.

Jesus is the great Saviour who saves people FROM their sins, not IN their sins.
What kind of saviour would save someone but yet leave them in the very thing he saved them from? Not my Saviour! He saved and washes sins away!
Praise His holy name!

I notice that none of these said of themselves, “I am perfect.” So I like to ask those who claim they’ve arrived at sinless perfection, “do all those who live and work with you agree that you are sinless and perfect?” Jesus was and asked if anyone could name a sin he had done. That’s the biblical standard of measure, that others say a person is sinlessly perfect.