3 1/2 years...

keras said:

It is your doctrine, Douggg; of national Israel being tribulated on earth, while the Church gets whisked off to heaven, that is the made up and false doctrine.

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Find a post where I have used the term "national Israel". That is your made up doctrine. Not mine.

seventysevens said:

These verses are distinctly the Last Days prophecy

4 “But you, Daniel, shut up the words, and seal the book until the time of the end; many shall run to and fro, and knowledge shall increase.”

5 Then I, Daniel, looked; and there stood two others, one on this riverbank and the other on that riverbank. 6 And one said to the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, “How long shall the fulfillment of these wonders be?”

7 Then I heard the man clothed in linen, who was above the waters of the river, when he held up his right hand and his left hand to heaven, and swore by Him who lives forever, that it shall be for a time, times, and half a time; and when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered, all these things shall be finished.

8 Although I heard, I did not understand. Then I said, “My lord, what shall be the end of these things?”

9 And he said, “Go your way, Daniel, for the words are closed up and sealed till the time of the end. 10 Many shall be purified, made white, and refined, but the wicked shall do wickedly; and none of the wicked shall understand, but the wise shall understand.

11 “And from the time that the daily sacrifice is taken away, and the abomination of desolation is set up, there shall be one thousand two hundred and ninety days.
12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

the book is to be sealed until the time of the end because only the generation that is living at that time will see in the world about them the fulfillment of these things and understand ,

Not everything is about 70 AD although there are people who try to insist otherwise

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This is a verse that you quoted above.

when the power of the holy people has been completely shattered

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The holy people are the Jews, Daniel prayed about his own people. To which God replied and told Daniel what would happen to Israel. Daniel's visions are all about physical Israel, the chosen people.

You might need to explain the following verse.

12 Blessed is he who waits, and comes to the one thousand three hundred and thirty-five days.

BABerean2 said:

Then why did Paul say he was an Israelite, even after his conversion, in Romans 11:1?

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Because he was born a Jew, a blood descendant of the twelve tribes.

Assuming you are an American, I bet you are an American even after becoming a Christian.

Douggg said:

They were warning the people about some trouble coming because of the decisions they made.

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The 2 Witnesses of Revelation 11:3-13, preach to the Christian citizens of Beulah, the half who violated the Covenant, Daniel 11:32, who are the half who remain, Zechariah 14:1-2, Revelation 12:17
The faithful half of the people, who stood firm in their faith, will be taken to a place of safety for that 1260 day period. Revelation 12:14

Believing they are just Jews still in Israel, conflicts with much prophecy; of their virtual demise, Romans 9:27, and of all the Christian people occupying all of the holy Land. Psalms 107:1-3

Douggg said:

No, just one Israel, with some of the Jews out of step with God.

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You are right with this one. Romans 9:6b is talking about saved and unsaved Jews.
However Romans 9:8 plainly states that it is only the children born of God's promise, [because of Abrahams faith; now our Christian faith] who are reckoned as Abrahams descendants.
The only Jews who are reckoned as Abrahams children, are those few who have faith in Jesus now.

The Kingdom, Divided

1 Kings 12:23-24 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel
_______
but then, I am a literalist. Other people see things differently.
...

Douggg said:

Because he was born a Jew, a blood descendant of the twelve tribes.

Assuming you are an American, I bet you are an American even after becoming a Christian.

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Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, instead of the tribe of Judah.

How do you know that I am not a blood descendant of the twelve tribes?

Quite a few Jews settled in the area around Glasgow, Scotland after 70 AD.
Some of my ancestors come from Scotland.

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Douggg said:

Because he was born a Jew, a blood descendant of the twelve tribes.

Assuming you are an American, I bet you are an American even after becoming a Christian.

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Mathematical basis of universal Abrahamic ancestry

Excerpt:

"As you go back further in time, more of those lines cross as you encounter more common ancestors of the living population. And then something really interesting happens. There comes a point at which, Chang wrote, “all individuals who have any descendants among the present-day individuals are actually ancestors of all present-day individuals.”

The example used Charlemagne.

It would have been even more demonstrable if it had used Abraham.

Israel is in all of us.

Even those who cling to dispensationalism's racialized "doctrine of ignorance".

gomerian said:

The Kingdom, Divided

1 Kings 12:23-24 Speak unto Rehoboam, the son of Solomon, king of Judah, and unto all the house of Judah and Benjamin, and to the remnant of the people, saying, Thus saith the LORD, Ye shall not go up, nor fight against your brethren the children of Israel
_______
but then, I am a literalist. Other people see things differently.
...

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It was God's will that Judah and Israel, the 10 Northern tribes, separated.
They have not yet rejoined as per Ezekiel 37, as the Spiritual blessings have not been conferred.

So who then, today are the actual descendants of the House of Israel?
jgr is right, it can be anyone alive today. But the Advent of Jesus and His extension of Salvation to all who would accept it, proves that it is every faithful Christian, who are the Israel of God. Galatians 3:26=29 & 6:16

Hiscosmicgoldfish3 said:

The tares are removed from the earth. The elect remain. Where is the tribulation, if the days were as in the days of Noah? The scenario is one of normality - things carrying on as usual.
Unless there is an error in the gathering of the information in Matthew 24. There can't be tribulation, and days of Noah at the same time.

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There are two tribulations one the first is of satan whie the second is of God.

Gotta go to Gen 6 to really find out what was happening

Genesis 6:1 "And it came to pass, when men began to multiply on the face of the earth, and daughters were born unto them,"

Genesis 6:2 "That the sons of God saw the daughters of men that they were fair; and they took them wives of all which they chose."

The "sons of God" are angelic beings, or angels, and their offspring are called "the Nephilim". These angelic beings, or angels saw the daughters of men were beautiful. These are the fallen angels of Jude 6, who followed Satan in his fall in the "world that was", which is the first earth age. Jude 6 reads; "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

When satan comes pretending to be Christ,these angels are coming with him.

The tribulation of satan is deception,thinking him to be Christ.

n2thelight said:

Jude 6 reads; "And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, He hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day."

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The time of the judgment of the dead is found below.

Rev 11:15 Then the seventh angel sounded: And there were loud voices in heaven, saying, "The kingdoms of this world have become the kingdoms of our Lord and of His Christ, and He shall reign forever and ever!"


Rev 11:18 The nations were angry, and Your wrath has come, And the time of the dead, that they should be judged, And that You should reward Your servants the prophets and the saints, And those who fear Your name, small and great, And should destroy those who destroy the earth."

It occurs on the great day of judgment.

2Ti_4:1 I charge you therefore before God and the Lord Jesus Christ, who will judge the living and the dead at His appearing and His kingdom:


We find in 2 Thessalonians that He returns in "flaming fire" taking vegeance on those who do not know God.

2Th 1:7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels,
2Th 1:8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.
2Th 1:9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power,
2Th 1:10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who believe, because our testimony among you was believed.


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BABerean2 said:

The time of the judgment of the dead is found below.

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The time that all the dead and the living will be Judged, is found in Revelation 20:11-15
That is: at the end of the Millennium, NOT at His appearing. Rev 11 just informs us that it will happen.

Re Thessalonians 2:6-10
This prophecy refers to the Lord's Day of wrath, not the Return in glory. The Sixth Seal event, at least 7 years before the Return.
Proved by verse 10, where He will be seen by His own people and not by all the world, as yet.

keras said:

So who then, today are the actual descendants of the House of Israel?

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Jesus says He came only unto the Lost Tribes of the House of Israel.
IMHO, they can only be literally a member of the 10-tribed Northern Nation of Israel. But then... I'm a literalist. (shrug)

I've started a thread about it called Other Sheep.
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gomerian said:

IMHO, they can only be literally a member of the 10-tribed Northern Nation of Israel. But then... I'm a literalist.

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Yes, Jesus came to save them and He has been successful, with the Christianization of the Western nations. They will be the majority of the new citizens of Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, in all of the holy Land.
All the faithful Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them there, in Revelation 7:9

keras said:

The time that all the dead and the living will be Judged, is found in Revelation 20:11-15
That is: at the end of the Millennium, NOT at His appearing. Rev 11 just informs us that it will happen.

Re Thessalonians 2:6-10
This prophecy refers to the Lord's Day of wrath, not the Return in glory. The Sixth Seal event, at least 7 years before the Return.
Proved by verse 10, where He will be seen by His own people and not by all the world, as yet.

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What does the text say?

Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

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BABerean2 said:

Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, instead of the tribe of Judah.

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Benjamin and Judah were the southern kingdom called Judah. Judah - Jews.

Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

Douggg said:

Acts 21:39 But Paul said, I am a man which am a Jew of Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, a citizen of no mean city: and, I beseech thee, suffer me to speak unto the people.

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Yes. Paul was from the tribe of Benjamin, and he did live in Judea during
that time.
He was a Judean, originally from Tarsus.

(KJV+) ButG1161 PaulG3972 said,G2036 IG1473 amG1510 a manG444 which(G3303) am a JewG2453 of Tarsus,G5018 a city in Cilicia,G2791 a citizenG4177 of noG3756 meanG767 city:G4172 and,G1161 I beseechG1189 thee,G4675 sufferG2010 meG3427 to speakG2980 untoG4314 theG3588 people.G2992

G2453
Ἰουδαῖος
Ioudaios
ee-oo-dah'-yos
From G2448 (in the sense of G2455 as a country); udaean, that is, belonging to Jehudah: - Jew (-ess), of Juda.
Total KJV occurrences: 196

.

keras said:

All the faithful Christians, from every tribe, race, nation and language. John sees them there, in Revelation 7:9

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They are the SOULS of Christians who died MARTYRS wearing WHITE ROBES that John saw before the Throne of God in Heaven In Revelation 7:9….as those SOULS wearing white robes that John saw under the altar mentioned in Revelation 6:9-11
Revelation 6
9 And when he opened the fifth seal, I saw underneath the altar the souls of them that had been slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held: 10 and they cried with a great voice, saying, How long, O Master, the holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And there was given them to each one a white robe; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little time, until their fellow-servants also and their brethren, who should be killed even as they were, should have fulfilled [their course].

They are waiting for the last Christians Martyrs who will be beheaded during the 42 months reign of the Beast.
It is written in Daniel 7:21-22 and Revelation 13:7-8 that the SAINTS of the Most High will be delivered into the hand of the Little Horn Beast ….that the Beast will overcome them …..This is talking about Christians who will have the misfortune to be alive on the Earth during the 42 months reign of the Beast .

Douggg said:

No, just one Israel, with some of the Jews out of step with God.

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Incorrect.

No, actually it divides the Covenant people in direct violation of everything that the word of God teaches concerning one body, neither Jew nor Gentile, all of one commonwealth, all one in Christ. And that it is Christ Himself (the true Son, the Israel of God) that makes his covenant people the true Israel in Him. God already said we are the Israel who are the children of Promise, so what further witness do we need.

Romans 9:6-8

• "Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
• Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
• That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed."

Theologians contradict this word of God in declaring that the children of the flesh "ARE INDEED" the Israel of God, and we of the promise "ARE NOT" Israel. God says that the children of the flesh Israel are not the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted for the seed. So then, who is man really arguing with, is it us or are they really arguing with God?

Galatians 4:27-31

• "For it is written, Rejoice, thou barren that bearest not; break forth and cry, thou that travailest not: for the desolate hath many more children than she which hath an husband.
• Now we, brethren, as Isaac was, are the children of promise.
• But as then he that was born after the flesh persecuted him that was born after the Spirit, even so it is now.
• Nevertheless what saith the scripture? Cast out the bondwoman and her son: for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.
• So then, brethren, we are not children of the bondwoman, but of the free."

Clearly God is teaching that we (the church) are the free woman, the children of Promise that are counted for the seed. The Israel that is the Israel of God, and not the children of the flesh (national Israel). There is not two Covenant Israelites that are the people of God. The Israel of God is a Body undivided by man's ideas of vain genealogies, laws of men and Jewish fables (Titus 1:14). It is as it has always been, one people of God, Israel of God. It is not that the word of God doesn't plainly say these things, it is that the people refuse to hear or receive it. They are blinded to read these truths with honest eyes, just like the majority in the nation of Israel.

Romans 2:28

• "For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh:"

Galatians 3:28

• "There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus."

Colossians 3:11

• "Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all."

Yes, both Israel and the Jews still have a future in the divine plan, but Israel and the Jews will be defined by the authoritative word of God, not by man, which is if they are IN CHRIST! Not because of their nationality.

Douggg said:

You chart does a good job of explaining your doctrine. It is still wrong. I can make a chart in similitude that shows a cat in one circle and a dog in another circle and have arrows pointing up to cat in a rectangle and calling him super bowser cat. It doesn't make it true though.

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My chart is wrong according to one who uses cat and dog as an example? Not using Word of God to refute me? Obviously not a bible student you are.