Eternal Security - Is the Gospel

FreeGrace2 · May 27, 2018

I asked:
"The Bible says that everyone is a sinner. Were you excluded from what the Bible says?"

EmSw said:
Nope, I wasn't excluded, such a silly question.

Not silly at all. A very legitimate question to you, since you keep pushing your notion that eternal life is given to those who keep the commandments. If you fail at even one of the commandments, you've broken all of them. Which excludes you from having eternal life. So by your own claims, you do not have eternal life.

You and your one-time doings. Breaking a commandment one time does not constitute the whole thing falling.

Jesus thought so. After showing the rich man that he loved his money more than God, the man left sad.

But, please provide any verse that you think supports your as yet unsubstantiated claim that breaking a commandment one time does not constitutre the whole thing failing.

So, do you think a commandment broken 10 years ago still constitute breaking them all today?

It's obvious you are completely unaware of any of this. Once any commandment is broken, it wasn't "kept". You yourself point out that Jesus said, "keep the commandmens". If you broke just one commandment 10 or 20 years ago, you didn't keep it. Why is that flying way over your head?

If you knew the power of God and His forgiveness through repentance, you wouldn't even bring this up.

So, it's not really the keeping of the commandments that counts, it's the repentance that counts, huh.

OK, let's go with that. Please define and explain exactly what repentance is and means.

And, are you going to tackle the 3 questions I've asked you, or not?

FreeGrace2 · May 27, 2018

EmSw said:
Who has escaped the corruption of the world by knowing Jesus? Believers or unbelievers?

Believers.

Can unbelievers escape the corruption of the world?

No.

Let's see what Peter also has to say about escaping the corruption of the world.

2 Peter 1
3 According as his divine power hath given unto us (believers) all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue:
4 Whereby are given unto us (believers) exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye (believers) might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust.

According to Peter, it is believers who have escaped the corruption that is in the world, not unbelievers.

Of course. I already knew that.

Now we will know to whom Peter is speaking in chapter 2, verse 20; it is believers. And Peter says, 'it would have been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than to have known it and then to turn their backs on the sacred command that was passed on to them'.

So, not knowing the way of righteousness is better than knowing it and turning their backs on the sacred command.

Yes, that is what Peter said.

Not knowing the way of righteousness is speaking of unbelievers, which do not possess eternal life. It is better to be an unbeliever than to have known and then turn their backs. What's worse than being an unbeliever without eternal life?

What a weird twist of the passage. Peter isn't talking about eternity here, as you are trying to insinuate.

He's warning believers that if they turn back from the "way of righteousness", life on earth for them will be worse than if they never believed. He wasn't talking about after this life, but during this life.

iow, God's divine discipline for such believers will be worse for them during this life than unbelievers in this life who aren't under God's discipline.

Peter also says, 'knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ'. Can unbelievers know Jesus?

You're asking silly questions.

What does Paul say in 2 Corinthians 4 -

3 But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost:
4 In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.

How can an unbeliever know Jesus, if the gospel is hidden to them? Aren't their minds blinded?

I'm surprised you'd care what Paul says, given all the times you've dismissed what he refutes about your views on the atonement and blood of Christ.

And in the same chapter, Paul says -

6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Do you see to whom the light shines to give the light of the KNOWLEDGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus?

What did Peter say in John 6:69 -

Also we have come to believe and know that You are the Christ, the Son of the living God.

Knowing comes after believing as mentioned above. So we know Peter was speaking of believers in 2 Peter 2.

Again, why do you quote Paul, when you have dismissed so much of what he wrote, and have openly claimed he was in error?

So, yes FG2, a believer can turn his back and be worse off than an unbeliever. And they are worse off at the end than they were at the beginning. In other words, they no longer are saved, nor have eternal life.

That would be your misunderstanding of the verses, but I've given the proper understanding, which doesn't violate any other verse in the Bible.

Unlike your claim here, that violates a lot of verses, but the most important one is john 10:28 where Jesus said that recipients of eternal life shall never perish.

So your claim is in direct contradiction with Jesus' words. Congratulations.

Doug Melven · May 27, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Also, it is sometimes asked: "So are we now under a stricter law?"

The answer is Yes. For Jesus Christ shows in the Sermon on the Mount how His New Covenant, Christian commandments are stricter than the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law.

But doing all of the things listed will not earn you eternal life.
Jesus said in Matthew 5:48 Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.
That is the standard you will have to keep to earn eternal life.
The Father doesn't sin and then repent, no He is perfect.
For our righteousness to exceed that of the Pharisees, we must have a righteousnesss that is not of us, that is not of the law. Philippians 3:9

Bible2+ said:
and also exceed in righteousness those who mistakenly try to keep the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48, Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17, Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Hebrews 7:18-19).

The Old Covenant law was not abolished. It is still in effect for those who try to establish there own righteousness instead of trusting Christ. 1 Timothy 1:8-9

Bible2+ said:
But there is no assurance of repentance (Hebrews 12:17, Revelation 2:21-23).

What does not having an assurance of repentance mean if you repented?

Bible2+ · May 28, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1836:

There is nothing here about giving back, returning, losing salvation or eternal life.

There is.

For 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1836:

Yet in ONE breath, Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

With conditions (Luke 13:3).

For John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

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FreeGrace2 said in post #1841:

. . . you keep pushing your notion that eternal life is given to those who keep the commandments.

As in Jesus' New Covenant/New Testament commandments (Hebrews 5:9, John 15:10).

Christians obey Jesus/God out of both their love for Him (John 14:21-24; 1 John 5:3), and their fear of Him (Romans 11:20-22; 1 Peter 1:17, Philippians 2:12), their fear of ultimately losing their salvation from hell if they wrongly employ their free will to do something like committing unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or if they become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

In John 14:21,23, when Jesus Christ talks about Christians needing to obey Him if they want God to love them (see also what John 15:10 says), He is referring to how Christians must keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21), and continue in His goodness (Romans 11:22), by continuing in faithful obedience to him, if they want to be saved from hell in the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1841:

If you fail at even one of the commandments, you've broken all of them. Which excludes you from having eternal life.

Not if you repent (1 John 1:9).

For it is only if Christians continue in a sin without repentance until death (1 John 5:16b), or until Jesus Christ's future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), that they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1841:

So, it's not really the keeping of the commandments that counts, it's the repentance that counts, huh.

It's both (Matthew 25:21, Romans 2:6-8).

For it is not difficult for Christians to obey everything that God requires of them (1 John 5:3b, Matthew 11:28-30, John 14:15,21, Matthew 5:48, Revelation 3:2; 2 Timothy 3:16-17, Colossians 1:28, Philippians 3:15; 1 Corinthians 2:6; 2 Corinthians 13:11).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1841:
Please define and explain exactly what repentance is and means.

Regarding repenting from a sin (Acts 8:22; 2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 3:19), that means to change one's mind regarding that sin, in the sense of having no plans to ever commit it again, knowing that God has made it possible for Christians not to sin (John 8:34-36, Romans 8:2-14, Romans 6:1-23; 2 Corinthians 7:1), even when they are tempted to do so (2 Peter 2:9a; 1 Corinthians 10:13, Matthew 6:13; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Romans 8:13, Galatians 5:16).

But if, sometime after repenting from a sin, Christians nonetheless wrongly employ their free will to commit that sin again, this does not mean that they had not previously repented from that sin, or that they as continued believers in Jesus Christ and His Gospel are not saved from hell. What they need to do is to repent from that sin again and confess it to God, and they will be completely forgiven (1 John 1:9, cf. Luke 17:4).

Satan wants Christians to fail to continue to come to Jesus Christ, to think that it is hopeless, that they are just too evil for Jesus, when in fact Jesus is waiting with open arms to forgive them for their sins, which weigh down on them so heavily (Matthew 11:28-30).

*******

FreeGrace2 said in post #1842:

[Re: 2 Pet. 2:20-22]
He's warning believers that if they turn back from the "way of righteousness", life on earth for them will be worse than if they never believed.

No, for that would contradict 1 Corinthians 15:19. Instead, their ultimate fate will be worse (Hebrews 10:26-29).

For sinful people can live very pleasant lives (Job 21:7-15).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1842:

iow, God's divine discipline for such believers will be worse for them during this life than unbelievers in this life who aren't under God's discipline.

But believers' repentance is not assured by discipline, although it can be helped by it.

That is, the ability of Christians (although not their choosing) to repent from and confess to God every sin that they commit is assured. For if they do commit a sin, even if they are unaware of it, Jesus Christ will send them warning and chastening to make sure that they know that they have sinned and need to repent (Revelation 3:19, Hebrews 12:6-7, cf. Jeremiah 31:18-19). And He will give them time to repent (Revelation 2:21a). But if they wrongly employ their free will to waste the time that they are given, and ignore the warning and chastening, and refuse to repent (Revelation 2:21-23, cf. Deuteronomy 21:18-21), until death (1 John 5:16b) or Jesus' future, Second Coming (Luke 12:45-46), then they will ultimately lose their salvation due to unrepentant sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Galatians 5:19-21).

If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24). And they need to be reading the Bible, every word of it (Matthew 4:4; 2 Timothy 3:16), over and over again. For it will expose to them any unrepentant sin which still exists in their heart (Hebrews 4:12; 2 Timothy 3:16), so that they can then repent from it and confess it to God, and be forgiven and perfect before God (2 Timothy 3:17; 1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Bible2+ · May 28, 2018

Doug Melven said in post #1843:

But doing all of the things listed will not earn you eternal life.

It will make it possible, ultimately (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21).

Compare how doing all of the things listed in 2 Peter 1:5-11 is required to obtain ultimate salvation (2 Peter 1:10-11, cf. 1 Peter 1:17, James 2:24).

Doug Melven said in post #1843:

Jesus said in Matthew 5:48 Be ye perfect even as your Father in Heaven is perfect.

Because it is possible for Christians to be perfect (2 Timothy 3:17; 2 Corinthians 7:1; 2 Corinthians 13:11, Luke 6:40, John 17:23; 1 Corinthians 2:6, Philippians 3:15, Colossians 4:12, James 1:4).

Doug Melven said in post #1843:

The Father doesn't sin and then repent, no He is perfect.

And He can make us perfect again if we slip up and repent (1 John 1:9).

Doug Melven said in post #1843:

For our righteousness to exceed that of the Pharisees, we must have a righteousnesss that is not of us, that is not of the law. Philippians 3:9

As in not of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. But we must still actually do righteousness ourselves in order to be righteous (1 John 3:7; 2 Corinthians 5:9).

For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

2 Corinthians 5:9, 1 Corinthians 3:9, Colossians 1:29, Philippians 2:12b, Titus 3:8, and Romans 2:6-8 show that Christians themselves must actually labor, together with God. Ultimate salvation is synergistic, because Christians can end up losing their salvation if they wrongly employ their free will to stop their laboring, to become utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Doug Melven said in post #1843:

The Old Covenant law was not abolished.

It was, in its letter (Romans 7:6).

For on Jesus Christ's Cross, for both Jews and Gentiles (John 11:51-52), of all times, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law was completely and forever abolished (Ephesians 2:15-16, Colossians 2:14-17; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18), disannulled (Hebrews 7:18), rendered obsolete (Hebrews 8:13, Galatians 3:2-25, Galatians 4:21 to 5:8), taken away and replaced (Hebrews 10:9) by the better hope (Hebrews 7:19), the better covenant (Hebrews 7:22, Hebrews 8:6-12), the second covenant (Hebrews 8:7, Hebrews 10:9), of Jesus' New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 1:17, Matthew 26:28, Hebrews 12:24, Hebrews 9:15), so that the law was changed (Hebrews 7:12).

All Christians, whether Jews or Gentles, of all times, are delivered from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, and should not keep it (Romans 7:6; 2 Corinthians 3:6-18, Galatians 2:11-21), or have any desire to keep it (Galatians 4:21 to 5:8, Galatians 3:2-25). Christians keep the spirit of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 7:6) by loving others (Galatians 5:14, Romans 13:8-10), by doing to others as they would have others do to them (Matthew 7:12).

The New Covenant is a new law (Hebrews 7:12,18-19, Hebrews 10:1-23), consisting of Jesus Christ's New Covenant/New Testament commandments (John 14:15), such as those which He gave in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). These commandments exceed in righteousness the abolished letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Matthew 5:20-48). So there is no reason for any Christian to ever want to go back under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). It was just a temporary schoolmaster (Galatians 3:24-25), a temporary shadow (Colossians 2:16-17), which God set up because of sins long after He had set up the original promise of the Abrahamic Covenant, and long before He brought this promise to fulfillment in Jesus' New Covenant (Galatians 3:16-29, Matthew 26:28).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been made obsolete by the New Covenant (Hebrews 8:13). For example, the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required an Aaronic priesthood (Exodus 30:30), while the New Covenant replaced the Aaronic priesthood with the Melchisedechian priesthood (Hebrews 7:11-28). And the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law required animal sacrifices for sin (Leviticus 23:19), while the New Covenant replaced these with the one-time sacrifice of Jesus Christ Himself on the Cross (Hebrews 10).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law is the Hagar to the New Covenant's Sarah (Galatians 4:21-25). So those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who try to keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law are like Ishmael, Abraham's son by a bondmaid (Galatians 4:22), who was cast out (Galatians 4:30), while those people, whether Jews or Gentiles, who keep the New Covenant are like Isaac (Galatians 4:28), Abraham's son by a freewoman (Galatians 4:22,31), who became his heir (Galatians 4:30b).

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, including the letter of its Ten Commandments, written and engraven in stones (2 Corinthians 3:7, Deuteronomy 4:13, Deuteronomy 27:8), was the ministration of death and condemnation (2 Corinthians 3:7,9). For example, see Leviticus 20:10, Exodus 31:14, and Numbers 15:32-36; and contrast these with the New Covenant's John 8:4-11 and Matthew 12:1-8.

The letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law has been completely and forever done away (2 Corinthians 3:11), abolished (2 Corinthians 3:13b). But it is still able to spiritually blind some people as with a veil from beholding Jesus Christ (2 Corinthians 3:14-16), while the New Covenant is the ministration of the Spirit and righteousness (2 Corinthians 3:6,8-9b), which remains (2 Corinthians 3:11b), and which permits Christians to remove the veil, and to behold Jesus (2 Corinthians 3:16-18, Mark 15:38, Hebrews 7:18-19, Ephesians 2:15-18, Colossians 2:14-17).

But a mistaken spirit of Pharisaism can still sometimes deceive even some Christians into thinking that they must keep the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to be saved from hell (Acts 15:1,5), or in order to become perfect (Galatians 3:2 to 5:26). This is a false, cursed gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). For if any Christians are keeping any part of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law thinking that they must do so in order to be saved from hell, or in order to become perfect, then Jesus Christ will profit them nothing. They have fallen from grace (Galatians 5:2-8).

Doug Melven said in post #1843:

What does not having an assurance of repentance mean if you repented?

It means that you exercised the possibility of repentance (Revelation 3:19).

Repentance is not assured because of free will (Revelation 2:21-23, Hebrews 10:26-29).

FreeGrace2 · May 28, 2018

I said:
"There is nothing here about giving back, returning, losing salvation or eternal life."

Bible2+ said:
There is.

There is not.

For 2 Peter 2:20-22 refers to Christians who had truly escaped the pollutions of the world (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:4b); they had truly been washed (2 Peter 2:22b, cf. 1 Corinthians 6:11, Hebrews 10:22) through knowing Jesus Christ (2 Peter 2:20, cf. 2 Peter 1:3b, John 17:3,17). But they nonetheless at some subsequent point wrongly employed their free will to return back to sinning without repentance, so that their ultimate fate will be worse than if they had never been saved at all (2 Peter 2:20b-21, cf. Hebrews 10:26-29).

As I previously explained, yes, some believers do turn back. But there are NO WORDS to suggest that they are "giving back" their salvation, or "returning" their salvation, or even "losing salvation". Your presumptions are huge.

The verses are about their current life on earth being worse when they die. Peter wasn't speaking of eternity as you presume.

btw, please read 1 Peter 1:23 and then explain to me how someone who has been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED can actually perish.

I'm rather curious how that works out.

I find no reason to repeatedly address all the verses you misunderstand.

You've got a bunch of problems.
1. Jesus was extremely clear that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

2. Peter was extremely clear that those born again are of IMPERISHABLE SEED.

3. Paul was extremely clear that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

So, those who persist in claiming that salvation can be lost are simply AGAINST what Jesus, Peter and Paul taught.

That's why I don't need to keep responding to all your verses, because none of them support your claims.

If any of them did, then Jesus, Peter and Paul would have been wrong.

I'll never believe that.

bcbsr · May 28, 2018

EmSw said:
"...It is actually taking steps toward eternal life. .. But, if grace is your teacher, and you are faithful to its teachings, then you will deny ungodliness and worldly lusts, live soberly, righteously, and godly now. As I stated before, this is not an easy task. The way to life is difficult"

To comment on various quotes you made, you speak of getting to eternal life as if you're still on the journey. Fact is, we who are believers have arrive. We HAVE eternal life. We're no longer seeking to get eternal life. We already have it. "I write these things to you who believe in the name of the Son of God so that you may know that you have eternal life." 1John 5:13 "I tell you the truth, whoever hears my word and believes him who sent me has eternal life and will not be condemned; he has crossed over from death to life." John 5:24

Yes, I agree that you're in the seeking stage, but even so you haven't gotten past the law. As you say, "Jesus said if we want to enter life, then we must do something, that is, keep the commandments." Jesus said that to drive people to grace, once they realize that, as you say, "If something is causing us to sin, we are to get rid of it. If not, we will keep that culprit which is causing us to sin, we will be cast into everlasting fire." That's the curse of the law. Gal 3:10 "For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."" To be justified by performance one must have perfect performance. One must be sinlessly perfect.

So go and try to make a futile attempt to live a sinlessly perfect life and discover how sinful you actually are. Those of the faith have abandoned such faith in themselves and trust solely in Jesus to save them.

EmSw said:
Why some do not know, nor obey what grace teaches, I can only surmise. It could be they are only looking for an easy way to salvation, or they couldn't care less what grace teaches, or just maybe, they haven't entered the narrow gate.
.

Difficult for you to enter, easy for us who have arrived. Not only easy, but free. For all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus,

Doug Melven · May 28, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1836:

Yet in ONE breath, Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28.

Bible2+ said:
With conditions (Luke 13:3).

I wish you .could see how silly you look when you quote this verse.
Repentance is absolutely necessary to obtain eternal life according to Luke 13:3
But once we have obtained eternal life we will never perish.
You should really spend a little time checking the context of the verses you cite.
If you take the text out of context, you are left with a con.

Bible2+ said:
For John 10:28-29 means that Christians will never spiritually perish so long as they remain in God's hand, and that no one outside of a Christian can ever take him or her out of God's hand. But John 10:28-29 does not mean that Christians are imprisoned in God's hand, that they cannot wrongly employ their free will to jump out of God's hand themselves, such as by committing apostasy, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12). Also, John 10:28-29 is not contradicting that God Himself can in the end cast Christians out of His hand, that they can in the end lose their salvation, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22), such as by wrongly employing their free will to commit a sin without repentance (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46), or by becoming utterly lazy without repentance (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a, Romans 2:6-8).

No, it actually means what Jesus said it means.

Bible2+ said:
Also, John 10:28-29 does not mean that a Christian's will is kept in God's hand in the sense that a Christian cannot wrongly employ his will to the ultimate loss of his salvation. For any such "kept" will would be nothing but a destroyed will. It would make Christians like someone who has been lobotomized, strait-jacketed, drugged, and locked up in a cell. Thank God that He does not do that to Christians, but leaves them as free people with free will. And because He does, they themselves have to choose each and every day for the rest of their lives to deny themselves, to take up their crosses themselves, and to continue to follow Jesus Christ (Luke 9:23) to the end. And the Bible gives no assurance that every Christian will choose to do that (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:2a).

But none of those things will stop you from being God's child.
I wonder if you understand the difference between a child and a disciple?

Bible2+ said:
In John 14:21,23, when Jesus Christ talks about Christians needing to obey Him if they want God to love them (see also what John 15:10 says), He is referring to how Christians must keep themselves in the love of God (Jude 1:21), and continue in His goodness (Romans 11:22), by continuing in faithful obedience to him, if they want to be saved from hell in the end (Romans 2:6-8, Hebrews 5:9).

You have some silly ideas. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Bible2+ said:
Not if you repent (1 John 1:9).

Bible2+ said:
Regarding repenting from a sin (Acts 8:22; 2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 3:19), that means to change one's mind regarding that sin, in the sense of having no plans to ever commit it again,

Bible2+ said:
Satan wants Christians to fail to continue to come to Jesus Christ, to think that it is hopeless, that they are just too evil for Jesus, when in fact Jesus is waiting with open arms to forgive them for their sins, which weigh down on them so heavily (Matthew 11:28-30).

But for believers, there sin has been put away as far as the East is from the West.
God said He will not impute sin to a believer.
I don't know about you, but when I see a promise of God, I know I can rely on it.

Bible2+ said:
For sinful people can live very pleasant lives (Job 21:7-15).

That would be an illusion. They might look happy to others, but they are not happy at all.
Deep inside they are miserable. They have no hope, they try to fill that emptiness inside with things that are not of God, and those things will never fill that hole.

Bible2+ said:
If Christians become unsure whether or not they have ignored Jesus Christ's warning and refused to repent from a sin, then they need to pray and ask Him to reveal to them if there is any unrepentant sin in their heart (Psalms 139:23-24

Again you should look at the Scriptures you cite, there is nothing in that verse about God revealing anything, it is not implied in any way.

Bible2+ said:
It will make it possible, ultimately (Romans 2:6-8, Matthew 7:21).

Romans 2:6-8 is not saying that, you took those verses out of context.
Read the whole chapter.

Bible2+ said:
Because it is possible for Christians to be perfect (2 Timothy 3:17; 2 Corinthians 7:1; 2 Corinthians 13:11, Luke 6:40, John 17:23; 1 Corinthians 2:6, Philippians 3:15, Colossians 4:12, James 1:4).

Doug Melven said in post #1843:

The Father doesn't sin and then repent, no He is perfect.

Bible2+ said:
And He can make us perfect again if we slip up and repent (1 John 1:9).

If we slipped up, we wouldn't be perfect like He is perfect.

Bible2+ said:
As in not of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law. But we must still actually do righteousness ourselves in order to be righteous (1 John 3:7; 2 Corinthians 5:9).

Bible2+ said:
For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13, John 15:4-5), He does not take away their free will, turning them into robots, or into macabre flesh puppets, mere marionettes whom He forces to dance across the stage as He pulls on their strings. Instead, He leaves them as His real children with free will. And so they have to choose each and every day to deny themselves, to take up their crosses, and to follow Jesus Christ, to the end (Luke 9:23, Matthew 24:13). And there is no assurance that they will choose to do that (Matthew 25:26,30, Luke 12:45-46, Luke 8:13).

Would you disown a child for disobedience? I know our Heavenly Father wouldn't.

Bible2+ said:
It was, in its letter (Romans 7:6).

Romans 7: 6 But now we have been discharged from the law, having died to that wherein we were held; so that we serve in newness of the spirit, and not in oldness of the letter.

How does discharged equate to being abolished?
Believers are under grace, not law.

Doug Melven said in post #1843:

What does not having an assurance of repentance mean if you repented?

Bible2+ said:
t means that you exercised the possibility of repentance (Revelation 3:19).

Repentance is not assured because of free will (Revelation 2:21-23, Hebrews 10:26-29).

Again an answer that avoids the question.
If you repented after committing a sin, what does that have to do with tfuture repentance?

Bible2+ · May 29, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1846:

But there are NO WORDS to suggest that they are "giving back" their salvation, or "returning" their salvation, or even "losing salvation".

There are.

For 2 Peter 2:20-22 is the same idea as Hebrews 10:26-29.

FreeGrace2 said in post #1846:

btw, please read 1 Peter 1:23 and then explain to me how someone who has been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED can actually perish.

Because the seed is not us.

Compare 1 John 3:9, where the seed of God within born-again Christians is the Spirit of Jesus Christ the Son of God in 1 John 3:8b (cf. 1 John 4:15, John 20:31), who comes to dwell within Christians (Galatians 4:6) through the seed of faith (Ephesians 3:17, Luke 17:6), which comes by hearing (Romans 10:17) the seed of the Word of God (1 Peter 1:23, Luke 8:11, Colossians 3:16).

But someone might ask: "Would not Christians losing their salvation require that the Holy Spirit be cast away to suffer in hell?"

The answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never be cast away, for He is God. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8, John 20:31). For the Holy Spirit is the Spirit of the Father (Matthew 10:19-20 and Mark 13:11) and the Spirit of the Son (John 14:16-18, Romans 8:9). Also, the Holy Spirit is already in hell, just as He is in heaven and everywhere else at the same time. For He is omnipresent (Psalms 139:7-8). And He can be in hell without suffering from it, just as God could cause even some righteous men who were cast into a fiery furnace on the earth not to suffer from it (Daniel 3:23-27).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1846:

Jesus was extremely clear that recipients of eternal life shall never perish. John 10:28

With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

FreeGrace2 said in post #1846:

Paul was extremely clear that eternal life is a gift of God in Rom 6:23 and that the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable in Rom 11:29.

Not "irrevocable".

Bible2+ · May 29, 2018

bcbsr said in post #1847:

. . . you speak of getting to eternal life as if you're still on the journey.

In the sense of ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 3:11-14).

bcbsr said in post #1847:

To be justified by performance one must have perfect performance.

One must have performance for ultimate justification (James 2:24, Matthew 7:21).

bcbsr said in post #1847:

One must be sinlessly perfect.

There is provision if a sin is committed and repented from (1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

bcbsr said in post #1847:

Those of the faith have abandoned such faith in themselves and trust solely in Jesus to save them.

Jesus Christ is still our Savior. For it is only by our continuing to abide in Him that we are able to believe, and do, the right things (Hebrews 12:2, John 15:4-5, Philippians 2:12-13). On our own, there is no way that we can ever save ourselves from hell. Also, Jesus is both our Savior and our King, our Lord: His name "Jesus", which means "YHWH the Savior" (cf. Isaiah 43:11), points to His role as our Savior (Matthew 1:21). And His title of the "Christ", which means the "Anointed" (cf. 2 Samuel 12:7), points to His role as our King (Mark 15:32), our Lord (2 Peter 1:11).

bcbsr said in post #1847:

Not only easy, but free.

A free gift can be taken away. For example, imagine that a father gives his young son a puppy as a free gift (cf. Romans 6:23), but warns him that he has to remember to feed and water the puppy every day (cf. Luke 9:23), or it will die (cf. James 2:26). The son says no problem, and takes good care of the puppy for a couple of weeks. But then he gets so distracted playing video games that he forgets to feed or water the puppy for three days and it dies. The father then takes the dead puppy away from the son, and buries it in the back yard (cf. John 15:2a,6). Does this mean that the puppy was not a free gift?

Bible2+ · May 29, 2018

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

Repentance is absolutely necessary to obtain eternal life according to Luke 13:3
But once we have obtained eternal life we will never perish.

There is initial repentance at the point of initial salvation (Mark 1:15, Acts 3:19, Acts 11:18, Acts 26:20; 2 Timothy 2:25), and then there is subsequent repentance (or the lack of it: Hebrews 10:26-29) for sins committed sometime subsequent to initial salvation (2 Corinthians 12:21, Revelation 2:5, Revelation 2:16, Revelation 2:21-22, Revelation 3:3, Revelation 3:19).

Luke 13:3 includes a lack of repentance subsequent to initial salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

But none of those things will stop you from being God's child.

Whereas Christians are indeed the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death, if his son refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sinners even more sorely than He did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Romans 8:38-39 means that nothing outside of Christians' own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love. For Romans 8:38-39 is not contradicting that Christians themselves can wrongly employ their free will, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 10:26-29, Hebrews 6:4-8, Matthew 25:26,30).

Regarding the part of Romans 8:38-39 which says: "neither death, nor life", it means that neither Christians' continued living in itself, nor their dying in itself, can separate them from God's love, in the sense of them losing their salvation just for continuing to live, or just for dying. For unless Christians wrongly employ their free will to commit suicide, whether they continue to live or die is outside of their control.

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

But for believers, there sin has been put away as far as the East is from the West.

Only so long as we repent from them (Luke 13:3).

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

God said He will not impute sin to a believer.

Only so long as we repent from sins (Hebrews 10:26-29) and confess them to God (1 John 1:9).

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

. . . there is nothing in that verse about God revealing anything . . .

Psalms 139:23-24 is about God leading believers in the way everlasting by revealing to them their sins so that they can repent from them (Revelation 3:19).

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

If we slipped up, we wouldn't be perfect like He is perfect.

Not until we repent and confess (1 John 1:9; 2 Corinthians 7:1).

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

How does discharged equate to being abolished?

Romans 7:6 is the same idea as Ephesians 2:15.

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

Believers are under grace, not law.

Grace sets Christians free from the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Romans 6:14b, John 1:17, Romans 7:6), but not from Jesus Christ's New Covenant law (Galatians 6:2, John 15:10; 1 Corinthians 9:21, Jeremiah 31:31-34, Matthew 26:28), the commandments of which (John 14:15) are those He gave, for example, in the Sermon on the Mount (Matthew 5:19 to 7:29), and in the epistles of the apostle Paul (1 Corinthians 14:37). For while Christians are initially saved by grace, by faith only (Ephesians 2:8-9, Titus 3:5, Romans 4:1-5), and do not have to obey the letter of the commandments of the Old Covenant Mosaic law in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Galatians 2:16, Romans 7:6), they do have to obey Jesus' New Covenant commandments in order to obtain ultimate salvation (Hebrews 5:9, Matthew 7:21, Romans 2:6-8).

It is by Christians obeying Jesus Christ's New Covenant commandments, whether obeying them currently (1 John 3:24), or during the future Tribulation of Matthew 24 and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 12:17b), that Christians can be sure that they are truly loving Jesus (John 14:21-24; 1 John 5:3), and remaining in His love (John 15:10, John 14:21b,23b, Jude 1:21). Christians must fear ultimately losing their salvation, ultimately being cut off the same as non-Christians, if they do not continue in His goodness (Romans 11:20-22, Luke 12:45-46).

Doug Melven said in post #1848:

If you repented after committing a sin, what does that have to do with tfuture repentance?

Past results are not a guarantee of future results, because of free will (2 Peter 2:20-22).

FreeGrace2 · May 29, 2018

FreeGrace2 said in post #1846:

But there are NO WORDS to suggest that they are "giving back" their salvation, or "returning" their salvation, or even "losing salvation".

Bible2+ said:
There are.

There are not.

For 2 Peter 2:20-22 is the same idea as Hebrews 10:26-29.

And neither of these passages says that salvation can be given back, returned, or lost.

But, I understand that you think they mean that. But they sure don't say that.

I said:
"btw, please read 1 Peter 1:23 and then explain to me how someone who has been born again of IMPERISHABLE SEED can actually perish."

Because the seed is not us.

I think you're just trying to be difficult and really don't want to understand. You're in denial of the obvious.

1 Pet 1:23 - For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God.

Peter was comparing being born from 2 different kinds of seeds; perishable and imperishable. The result of being born of perishable seed (physical birth) means the physical body will perish. This is beyond question.

In the same way, the result of being born of imperishable seed means the spiritual body will not perish.

How in the world can anyone claim that the result of being born of imperishable seed is to perish? That is just nonsense, but being in denial is your problem with seeing reality.

Paul spoke of this at some length in 1 Cor 15. In v.1-11, Paul speaks of the resurrection of Christ. In v.12-34 he speaks of the resurrection of the dead. Then, in v.35-58 he speaks of the resurrection body.

38 But God gives it a body as he has determined, and to each kind of seed he gives its own body.

So, you see, the body is related to the seed that gives it birth.

44 it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body.

Here, Paul proves the difference between the 2.

But someone might ask: "Would not Christians losing their salvation require that the Holy Spirit be cast away to suffer in hell?"

The answer is No, the Holy Spirit will never be cast away, for He is God. God the Holy Spirit (Acts 5:3-4) is one God with God the Father and God the Son, Jesus Christ (Hebrews 1:8, John 20:31).

This completely misses the point. Jesus said the Holy Spirit will be with the believer forever. And since the Holy Spirit will not be spending any time in the lake of fire, this is another proof that no believer will spend any time there either.

With conditions (e.g. Luke 13:3).

A real broken record, you are.

"I tell you, no! But unless you repent, you too will all perish."

Do you not understand that to believe in Christ requires a complete change of mind, which is what repentance is?

So Luke 13:3 doesn't help you in your claim.

Not "irrevocable".

So you know better than Greek scholars, who have spent their lives translating Greek into English? lol

The Greek word is "unrepented of", which is totally awkward. However, Greek scholars understand the phrase does mean irrevocable. iow, God won't change His mind about the giving of His gifts. Once given, He will not take them back.

FreeGrace2 · May 29, 2018

Bible2+ said:
In the sense of ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 3:11-14).

One must have performance for ultimate justification (James 2:24, Matthew 7:21).

Interesting how one must add words in order to defend their claims and theology.

No where in Scripture do we see anything about a supposed difference between initial and ultimate anything.

It's just a fantasy.

I recommend that you just stick with what the Bible actually says.

A free gift can be taken away. For example, imagine that a father gives his young son a puppy as a free gift (cf. Romans 6:23), but warns him that he has to remember to feed and water the puppy every day (cf. Luke 9:23), or it will die (cf. James 2:26). The son says no problem, and takes good care of the puppy for a couple of weeks. But then he gets so distracted playing video games that he forgets to feed or water the puppy for three days and it dies. The father then takes the dead puppy away from the son, and buries it in the back yard (cf. John 15:2a,6). Does this mean that the puppy was not a free gift?

This is a pathetic attempt at equating a puppy with eternal life, which is God's own life.

Your parable isn't even close to what the Bible teaches.

God's gifts are unrepented of. He won't take them back. That's exactly what it means, and you've failed to show otherwise.

Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish in John 10:28. That verse alone refutes all your notions and fantasies about losing salvation.

Previous to that statement, He said whoever believes has (as in a current possession) eternal life in John 5:24 and 6:47. So we know that He gives the irrevocable gift of eternal life WHEN one believes, since all believers have it. They have it WHEN they believe.

So we know that from the MOMENT one believes, Jesus says they shall never perish.

And no one can refute this FACT from Scripture.

From presumptions, yes.
From fantasies, yes.
From unreality, yes.

But not from Scripture.

justbyfaith · May 29, 2018

I am not going to go to the trouble of going through and reading all of the posts in this thread, as that would probably take two days; but my experience of @FreeGrace2 is that he is unbalanced in his thinking of the scriptures and also does not pay attention to scriptures that are leveled against his point of view: in other words, he has an unteachable spirit. In another thread that ran for over 156 pages, all he ever did was to keep re-quoting John 10:28 when it had been dealt with in such a way that it no longer had bearing on the issue. It went to show that @FreeGrace2, in that thread, was blind to the reality of what was presented, that John 10:27 tells us that John 10:28 is a promise that belongs to Jesus' sheep, whom Jesus knows, and that according to Matthew 7:23 Jesus does not know those who work or do iniquity. It is very clear-cut; and yet @FreeGrace2 never really seemed to understand or see the reality of what was being spoken. I don't know if he has brought up the same arguments here; but I discovered in that long thread in Soteriology that @FreeGrace2 believes in what I affectionately call the "believe-for-a-moment" heresy.

That is, that a person can believe for a moment of time; and that if he then falls away, he is still saved: contrary to such verses as Hebrews 3:14, which tells us that we are partakers of Christ (saved) if we continue in our faith and confidence stedfast unto the end. He will probably try to wiggle his way around that one by attempting to redefine the terms.

My point being that believe-for-a-moment theology is not doctrine according to godliness (see 1 Timothy 6:3, Titus 1:1); because someone who falls away and goes back to living in worldly ways is still saved in his theology; which amounts to turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness (Jude 1:3-4).

FreeGrace2 · May 29, 2018

justbyfaith said:
I am not going to go to the trouble of going through and reading all of the posts in this thread, as that would probably take two days; but my experience of @FreeGrace2 is that he is unbalanced in his thinking of the scriptures and also does not pay attention to scriptures that are leveled against his point of view: in other words, he has an unteachable spirit.

What a hoot! Everything I believe is plainly stated in Scripture, to the complete chagrin of those who teach opposite; that salvation can be lost. Such people have NO verses that plainly tell us that salvation can be lost, or that saved people can end up lost.

In fact, what the Bible does say in very plain language that no one has any excuse to not accept, is that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

It could not be stated any more clear than this, yet the whole of OSNAS proves that they are indeed the unteachable ones, for denying, ignoring what Jesus said so plainly.

My views are biblical. It is the OSNAS crowd's views that are totally unbalanced.

And this has been shown over and over, which proves it is they who are unteachable.

In another thread that ran for over 156 pages, all he ever did was to keep re-quoting John 10:28 when it had been dealt with in such a way that it no longer had bearing on the issue.

Very faulty claim here. This verse is the SINGLE MOST CLEAR VERSE in the Bible on eternal security, yet jbf thinks it doesn't even apply to the discussion of one's security.

Now, THAT is unbalanced.

It went to show that @FreeGrace2, in that thread, was blind to the reality of what was presented, that John 10:27 tells us that John 10:28 is a promise that belongs to Jesus' sheep, whom Jesus knows, and that according to Matthew 7:23 Jesus does not know those who work or do iniquity.

And none of this has been denied or rejected. Apparently jbf doesn't bother to read my posts before he fires off another erroneous post.

It is very clear-cut; and yet @FreeGrace2 never really seemed to understand or see the reality of what was being spoken. I don't know if he has brought up the same arguments here; but I discovered in that long thread in Soteriology that @FreeGrace2 believes in what I affectionately call the "believe-for-a-moment" heresy.

That is, that a person can believe for a moment of time; and that if he then falls away, he is still saved

This is proof positive that jbf has rejected the very plain words of Jesus, when He said, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish". His view is that some who have been given this gift WILL perish, if they don't keep believing.

But since Jesus' statement is ONE sentence, if there were any conditions beyond receiving eternal life in order to not perish, Jesus FAILED to make that clear.

In fact, Jesus did the OPPOSITE. He really muddied the waters by NOT including the conditions that jbf thinks are there.

So, who ya gonna believe? jbf, who doesn't believe what Jesus said, or what Jesus said?

I think the choice is very clear. Jesus not only spoke the truth, but He IS the TRUTH.

And jbf doesn't know what he's talking about.

contrary to such verses as Hebrews 3:14, which tells us that we are partakers of Christ (saved) if we continue in our faith and confidence stedfast unto the end.

Here's just more evidence that jbf doesn't understand Scripture. To be a "partaker of Christ" isn't about getting or being saved at all. Which I've explained to him many times, further proof that he's the one who isn't teachable. Rather than even trying to deal with my explanation, he just dismissed it and repeated his own mantra.

Here is the Greek word that he fails to understand:
NT:3353 metochos (met'-okh-os); from NT:3348; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate:

KJV - fellow, partaker, partner.

The word comes from a word for "participant". So it seems jbf thinks that he actually participates with Christ in saving him. So he helps Christ, huh? Yeah, sure. lol

What the believer does participate or partner with Christ in is works, or good deeds. Which goes back to John 15 and abiding in Him in order to bear fruit.

jbf's desperation to try to find some verse that refutes what Jesus said in John 10:28 is laughable, or pitiful.

He will probably try to wiggle his way around that one by attempting to redefine the terms.

Nothing to wriggle around. I use Greek lexicons to inform my understanding of Greek words, something that jbf fails to do repeatedly.

Doug Melven · May 29, 2018

Bible2+ said:
Whereas Christians are indeed the children of God (Galatians 4:6-7, Romans 8:16; 1 John 3:1, John 1:12), they can still ultimately lose their salvation, such as by refusing to repent from a sin (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Luke 12:45-46). For under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law, a father was commanded to have even his own son stoned to death, if his son refused to repent (Deuteronomy 21:18-21). And under the New Covenant, God will ultimately punish unrepentant sinners even more sorely than He did under the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law (Hebrews 10:26-29).

No they can't because God made a promise, a very serious one at that.
Isaiah 54:7 For a small moment have I forsaken thee; but with great mercies will I gather thee.
54:8 In a little wrath I hid my face from thee for a moment; but with everlasting kindness will I have mercy on thee, saith the LORD thy Redeemer.
54:9 For this is as the waters of Noah unto me: for as I have sworn that the waters of Noah should no more go over the earth; so have I sworn that I would not be wroth with thee, nor rebuke thee.
54:10 For the mountains shall depart, and the hills be removed; but my kindness shall not depart from thee, neither shall the covenant of my peace be removed, saith the LORD that hath mercy on thee.

The covenant that God made with in no way depended on Noah doing anything.
God swore that He would not flood the Earth again. And then He guaranteed that oath by putting a rainbow in the sky. Whenever you see the rainbow you know that God honored His promise.
Then God said in Isaiah that this New Covenant would be like that one. Not dependent on us doing anything.
Once you are in that Covenant, it's a wrap, it is no longer dependent on you.
Just as there is nothing we can do to make God flood the Earth again, So God has promised to not take away the Covenant of peace from us. We can't even give it back, as that would require God to take it from us.
So all of the verses you cite, are not referring to loss of salvation.

Bible2+ said:
Romans 8:38-39 means that nothing outside of Christians' own free-willed actions can separate them from God's love.

Romans 8:38 For I am persuaded, that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor powers, nor things present, nor things to come,
8:39 Nor height, nor depth, nor any other creature, shall be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Would death not be a result of sin? That can't separate us either.
Would our freewill not be a power? That question was rhetorical.
Things to come, that would be any action we commit. That can't separate us either.
So your idea that our freewill can separate us from God's love has just been triply debunked.

Bible2+ said:
Psalms 139:23-24 is about God leading believers in the way everlasting by revealing to them their sins so that they can repent from them (Revelation 3:19).

Psalms 139:23 Search me, O God, and know my heart: try me, and know my thoughts:
139:24 And see if there be any wicked way in me, and lead me in the way everlasting.
You make the wrong assumption that God will reveal His knowledge of what He sees in you to you.
Not only is it not there it is not even implied.
If He was to reveal what He learned from His search, then it would be up to you to figure out the best way to deal with it. Instead David asks to be led.

Bible2+ said:
Romans 7:6 is the same idea as Ephesians 2:15.

If that were true, Jesus would have lied, because
Matthew 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.
Jesus did not fulfill all of the law. There are many OT prophecies that have yet to be fulfilled.
Therefore the law is not abolished for the one not in Christ, for the one in Christ it is abolished.

LoveofTruth · May 29, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
What a hoot! Everything I believe is plainly stated in Scripture, to the complete chagrin of those who teach opposite; that salvation can be lost. Such people have NO verses that plainly tell us that salvation can be lost, or that saved people can end up lost.

In fact, what the Bible does say in very plain language that no one has any excuse to not accept, is that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

It could not be stated any more clear than this, yet the whole of OSNAS proves that they are indeed the unteachable ones, for denying, ignoring what Jesus said so plainly.

My views are biblical. It is the OSNAS crowd's views that are totally unbalanced.

And this has been shown over and over, which proves it is they who are unteachable.

Very faulty claim here. This verse is the SINGLE MOST CLEAR VERSE in the Bible on eternal security, yet jbf thinks it doesn't even apply to the discussion of one's security.

Now, THAT is unbalanced.

And none of this has been denied or rejected. Apparently jbf doesn't bother to read my posts before he fires off another erroneous post.

This is proof positive that jbf has rejected the very plain words of Jesus, when He said, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish". His view is that some who have been given this gift WILL perish, if they don't keep believing.

But since Jesus' statement is ONE sentence, if there were any conditions beyond receiving eternal life in order to not perish, Jesus FAILED to make that clear.

In fact, Jesus did the OPPOSITE. He really muddied the waters by NOT including the conditions that jbf thinks are there.

So, who ya gonna believe? jbf, who doesn't believe what Jesus said, or what Jesus said?

I think the choice is very clear. Jesus not only spoke the truth, but He IS the TRUTH.

And jbf doesn't know what he's talking about.

Here's just more evidence that jbf doesn't understand Scripture. To be a "partaker of Christ" isn't about getting or being saved at all. Which I've explained to him many times, further proof that he's the one who isn't teachable. Rather than even trying to deal with my explanation, he just dismissed it and repeated his own mantra.

Here is the Greek word that he fails to understand:
NT:3353 metochos (met'-okh-os); from NT:3348; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate:

KJV - fellow, partaker, partner.

The word comes from a word for "participant". So it seems jbf thinks that he actually participates with Christ in saving him. So he helps Christ, huh? Yeah, sure. lol

What the believer does participate or partner with Christ in is works, or good deeds. Which goes back to John 15 and abiding in Him in order to bear fruit.

jbf's desperation to try to find some verse that refutes what Jesus said in John 10:28 is laughable, or pitiful.

Nothing to wriggle around. I use Greek lexicons to inform my understanding of Greek words, something that jbf fails to do repeatedly.

You error again

First in John 10:28 because you rip the verse out of context and out of the entire book of John. Jesus clearly says that only those who repent and believe have eternal life and those who follow him and abide in him continue in him or in eternal life. Read John10:27 and notice that they must “follow him”. This following him is by continuing on the faith .

Also you messed up in Hebrews 3:12-14 which shows clearly that a person can depart from God,(not just from participating with him on works) although if God is not working in us through faith and abiding in him we are not saved and our faith is vain as scripture clearlysay to the unbiased reader Hebrews 13:20,21, John 25, etc etc.

Also the word on hovered 3:14 for “partakers” of Christ is in context to continual belief and not being hardened through sin. The word “partakers is

“from 3348; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication, an associate:--fellow, partaker, partner.”

From

“from 3326 and 2192; to share or participate; by implication, belong to, eat (or drink):--be partaker, pertain, take part, use.

Notice it relates to ”Belong to”. To be a participant of Christ is to be abiding in him and he in us. There is no participation in him or in eternal life if we believe not. As the context of Hebrews 3 clearly says (to the unbiased reader)

Hebrews 3 - 12. Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God. 13. But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. 14. For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;”

if we are hardened through the deceitful ness of sin we can have an EVIL heart of unbelief and depart from God or from that belonging to him participation in him and he in us .

To be a partner with Christ is to walk in the light and abide in him through faith and he abiding in us also. There is no partnership or partaking of Christ without this. This is where we partake and participate of his life and when we eat his flesh and drink his blood (spiritually speaking). This communion or participation with him is eternal life as we abide in this. Jesus said unless we eat his flesh and drink his blood we have no life in us and only then do we have eternal life as Jesus said. Similarity unless we abide and continue in the faith we are not partakers of Christ.

You have also been shown very clearly that Judas was once a sheep sent to the lost sheep that he belonged to Jesus and was given power to cast out devils (Matthew 10) and he fell away by transgression and was lost in the end. At the beginning of his ministry he belonged to the Father and Jesus and later in he became a devil and Satan entered into him and later on he betrayed Jesus with a kiss.

You also were shown that angels, that are heavenly eternal beings can sin and fall and no longer abide in the truth they were in and end up in the lake of fire.

And you have been shown many verses about a person who once believed and then fell away and those who believed for a while and were saved for a while and fell away Luke 8!

And many many more .

Almost every one of your arguments have been corrected by scripture

Yet you still go on and seem to ignore the many scriptural proofs and try desperately to hold on to a erroneous doctrine of OSAS.

You say you have to hear certain exact words etc. Bit scripture is very clear without having to say exactly what you try to ask for. Muslim’s and other groups say similar things needing exact words. They will say things like, show me where Jesus actually said “I am God” and if they don’t see those exact words they say you can’t show it. Even though many many scriptures prove that Jesus Christ is God manifest in the flesh.

You say things similar when you say show me where is says a person can be saved and loose thier salvation. And there are many scriptures that have been shown.

You may respond here and say show me any scriptures . All I can say is go back and read ever post again and you will see the many scriptural corrections to your doctrine.

FreeGrace2 · May 29, 2018

What a hoot! Everything I believe is plainly stated in Scripture, to the complete chagrin of those who teach opposite; that salvation can be lost. Such people have NO verses that plainly tell us that salvation can be lost, or that saved people can end up lost.

LoveofTruth said:
You error again

You are just embarrassing yourself with these kind of comments.

First in John 10:28 because you rip the verse out of context and out of the entire book of John.

More embarrassment. The entire book of John is evangelistic. iow, how to have eternal life. Jesus tells us in 5:24 and 6:47 that whoever believes in Him HAS (as in current possession) eternal life. Do you understand what this means? It means from the MOMENT one believes in Jesus, they possess eternal life. And John 10:28 tells us HOW we get it. Jesus gives it. To whom? To those who believe, of course.

And the direct result of being given eternal life is that the recipient shall never perish.

This is a promise from Jesus that you do not believe.

Jesus clearly says that only those who repent and believe have eternal life and those who follow him and abide in him continue in him or in eternal life. Read John10:27 and notice that they must “follow him”. This following him is by continuing on the faith .

Those who have the ability to read properly see NO conditions for recipients to meet in order to not perish. v.27 is a description of His sheep, and what they do. But there is nothing about "conditions" that you so desperately want to see in the text.

So, you commit eisegesis in order to support your theory.

But proper exegesis sees no conditions for recipients of eternal life. From the moment one believes, they become His sheep, they are given eternal life, and they shall never perish.

I'll make a list to make this easier to grasp:

The result of believing in Christ:
1. become His sheep
2. given eternal life
3. shall never perish

Also you messed up in Hebrews 3:12-14 which shows clearly that a person can depart from God,(not just from participating with him on works) although if God is not working in us through faith and abiding in him we are not saved and our faith is vain as scripture clearlysay to the unbiased reader Hebrews 13:20,21, John 25, etc etc.

I never said a person could't "depart from God". Jesus said recipients of eternal life shall never perish. Why don't you believe that?

Also the word on hovered 3:14 for “partakers” of Christ is in context to continual belief and not being hardened through sin. The word “partakers is

“from 3348; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication, an associate:--fellow, partaker, partner.”

OK, repeat what I already said.

Notice it relates to ”Belong to”. To be a participant of Christ is to be abiding in him and he in us

Which is all about fellowship and bearing fruit.

There is no participation in him or in eternal life if we believe not.

You make a lot of claims that you cannot find support from Scripture.

Yet you still go on and seem to ignore the many scriptural proofs and try desperately to hold on to a erroneous doctrine of OSAS.

I invite you to tell that to Jesus, who taught that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

You say you have to hear certain exact words etc.[/QUOT]
How come you don't believe the certain exact words from Jesus?

But to be clear, I've never asked for "certain exact words". I have and will continue to ask for plain language that you cannot provide because the Bible doesn't teach what you claim. But it does teach what I claim, because Jesus taught it and claimed it.

justbyfaith · May 29, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
What a hoot! Everything I believe is plainly stated in Scripture, to the complete chagrin of those who teach opposite; that salvation can be lost. Such people have NO verses that plainly tell us that salvation can be lost, or that saved people can end up lost.

In fact, what the Bible does say in very plain language that no one has any excuse to not accept, is that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

It could not be stated any more clear than this, yet the whole of OSNAS proves that they are indeed the unteachable ones, for denying, ignoring what Jesus said so plainly.

My views are biblical. It is the OSNAS crowd's views that are totally unbalanced.

And this has been shown over and over, which proves it is they who are unteachable.

Very faulty claim here. This verse is the SINGLE MOST CLEAR VERSE in the Bible on eternal security, yet jbf thinks it doesn't even apply to the discussion of one's security.

Now, THAT is unbalanced.

And none of this has been denied or rejected. Apparently jbf doesn't bother to read my posts before he fires off another erroneous post.

This is proof positive that jbf has rejected the very plain words of Jesus, when He said, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish". His view is that some who have been given this gift WILL perish, if they don't keep believing.

But since Jesus' statement is ONE sentence, if there were any conditions beyond receiving eternal life in order to not perish, Jesus FAILED to make that clear.

In fact, Jesus did the OPPOSITE. He really muddied the waters by NOT including the conditions that jbf thinks are there.

So, who ya gonna believe? jbf, who doesn't believe what Jesus said, or what Jesus said?

I think the choice is very clear. Jesus not only spoke the truth, but He IS the TRUTH.

And jbf doesn't know what he's talking about.

Here's just more evidence that jbf doesn't understand Scripture. To be a "partaker of Christ" isn't about getting or being saved at all. Which I've explained to him many times, further proof that he's the one who isn't teachable. Rather than even trying to deal with my explanation, he just dismissed it and repeated his own mantra.

Here is the Greek word that he fails to understand:
NT:3353 metochos (met'-okh-os); from NT:3348; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate:

KJV - fellow, partaker, partner.

The word comes from a word for "participant". So it seems jbf thinks that he actually participates with Christ in saving him. So he helps Christ, huh? Yeah, sure. lol

What the believer does participate or partner with Christ in is works, or good deeds. Which goes back to John 15 and abiding in Him in order to bear fruit.

jbf's desperation to try to find some verse that refutes what Jesus said in John 10:28 is laughable, or pitiful.

Nothing to wriggle around. I use Greek lexicons to inform my understanding of Greek words, something that jbf fails to do repeatedly.

The issue of whether someone can still be saved after falling away has been hashed out in the following thread:

Those who fall away are still saved?

justbyfaith · May 29, 2018

FreeGrace2 said:
What a hoot! Everything I believe is plainly stated in Scripture, to the complete chagrin of those who teach opposite; that salvation can be lost. Such people have NO verses that plainly tell us that salvation can be lost, or that saved people can end up lost.

In fact, what the Bible does say in very plain language that no one has any excuse to not accept, is that Jesus said that those He gives eternal life shall never perish.

It could not be stated any more clear than this, yet the whole of OSNAS proves that they are indeed the unteachable ones, for denying, ignoring what Jesus said so plainly.

My views are biblical. It is the OSNAS crowd's views that are totally unbalanced.

And this has been shown over and over, which proves it is they who are unteachable.

Very faulty claim here. This verse is the SINGLE MOST CLEAR VERSE in the Bible on eternal security, yet jbf thinks it doesn't even apply to the discussion of one's security.

Now, THAT is unbalanced.

And none of this has been denied or rejected. Apparently jbf doesn't bother to read my posts before he fires off another erroneous post.

This is proof positive that jbf has rejected the very plain words of Jesus, when He said, "I give them eternal life and they shall never perish". His view is that some who have been given this gift WILL perish, if they don't keep believing.

But since Jesus' statement is ONE sentence, if there were any conditions beyond receiving eternal life in order to not perish, Jesus FAILED to make that clear.

In fact, Jesus did the OPPOSITE. He really muddied the waters by NOT including the conditions that jbf thinks are there.

So, who ya gonna believe? jbf, who doesn't believe what Jesus said, or what Jesus said?

I think the choice is very clear. Jesus not only spoke the truth, but He IS the TRUTH.

And jbf doesn't know what he's talking about.

Here's just more evidence that jbf doesn't understand Scripture. To be a "partaker of Christ" isn't about getting or being saved at all. Which I've explained to him many times, further proof that he's the one who isn't teachable. Rather than even trying to deal with my explanation, he just dismissed it and repeated his own mantra.

Here is the Greek word that he fails to understand:
NT:3353 metochos (met'-okh-os); from NT:3348; participant, i.e. (as noun) a sharer; by implication an associate:

KJV - fellow, partaker, partner.

The word comes from a word for "participant". So it seems jbf thinks that he actually participates with Christ in saving him. So he helps Christ, huh? Yeah, sure. lol

What the believer does participate or partner with Christ in is works, or good deeds. Which goes back to John 15 and abiding in Him in order to bear fruit.

jbf's desperation to try to find some verse that refutes what Jesus said in John 10:28 is laughable, or pitiful.

Nothing to wriggle around. I use Greek lexicons to inform my understanding of Greek words, something that jbf fails to do repeatedly.

@FreeGrace2 has misrepresented me by saying that I don't believe what Jesus said. I do. And I do believe in eternal security, for the SAINT, not the sinner.

John 10:28 has as its companion verses 1 John 2:17 and 1 John 3:6--

And the world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the will of God abideth for ever.

Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.

The first of the verses in this series speaks to us of what eternal security really and truly is--that we will abide in Jesus for ever if we are doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving our own selves.

And the second verse of the series tells us that those who abide in him sin not--I will not here speak of the doctrine of entire sanctification which is often slandered by the term "sinless perfection"; because I prefer not to get into an argument: and therefore I will not here say that one can live a holy life in complete freedom from the practice of sin--instead I will say that 1 John 3:6 means that there is a definite 180-degree turn that is taken by those who truly receive Christ, and they are no longer walking in the direction of sin, death, and hell...but are now walking in the direction of righteousness, life, and heaven...in fact they have life, and that abundant (John 10:10) and everlasting/eternal (John 3:14-16, John 5:24, John 6:47).

So if I am walking in the direction of the country designated righteousness, will I not find myself in that country at some point? And I do not believe that I have to physically die in order to enter into that country. And in doing so I leave the country where sin and temptation so easily used to beset me.

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