How can God be one God in three persons?

mmbattlestar said:

I believe in the trinity but I don't quite understand how it works. How can God be three persons yet still continue to be one God? Wouldn't that make God three separate Gods? The frequently posted diagram sort of explains the trinity. Both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God but the Father is not the Son. Nor is the Holy Spirit the Father...etc But how is that possible? God is three separate persons yet one God? It doesn't make any sense. Can someone please explain to me how the Trinity works?

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The trinity is a thing that the bible does not explain in detail, as such we can not really say how it works, for that is thinking beyond what is written. However I am going to throw a spanner into the works, just to complicate things further. The bible actually shows the Holy Spirit as being seven individual spirits. You will notice creation was seven days, and often when a miracle occurred it happened on the seven instance.

The earliest Church Father and writer apart from the apostles was Justin Martyr, he was a philosopher who turned to Christ, living approximately 60 years after the apostles states - "These things, I think, Plato having learned from the prophets regarding the Holy Ghost, he has manifestly transferred to what he calls virtue. For as the sacred prophets say that one and the same spirit is divided into seven spirits, so he also, naming it one and the same virtue, says this is divided into four virtues;"

The bible does clearly show the Holy Spirit was seven members but it takes a fair bit of study. Too much to put here. To see the scripture backing this see The Seven Spirits of God used to explain the Trinity

But how this applies to the trinity, is the trinity is three members manifested (shown) to the earth. There are three members, yet one God, in the same way as the Holy Spirit has seven members, yet is known as the one Holy Spirit. So the trinity is three members know as the one God.

I will just use a bit of brief scripture here, that you can look up on the above website. Scripture describes a lampstand with seven candles, called the seven spirts of God (the eyes of the LORD) sent out into all the earth. This lamp stand is between two angels or anointed ones. The lampstand is the LORD, the bible says that the one who sits between the two angels is God himself. We see that God consists of seven individual spirits, know as the eyes of the LORD. When we move to revelation the last book of the bible we see Jesus the lamb of God has the same seven eyes. It describes a lamb that was slain having seven eyes.

Zec 4:10 For who hath despised the day of small things? for they shall rejoice, and shall see the plummet in the hand of Zerubbabel with those seven; they are the eyes of the LORD, which run to and fro through the whole earth.

Rev 5:6 Then I looked and saw a Lamb standing in the center of the throne that was surrounded by the four living creatures and the elders. The Lamb looked as if it had once been killed. It had seven horns and seven eyes, which are the seven spirits of God, sent out to all the earth.

The OT shows God as having seven eyes, Jesus is show to have the same eyes, or same spirit.

So what am I saying we will not fully understand the mystery of the seven fold nature of God until in heaven, but he is more complicated than three distinct members.

mmbattlestar said:

Yeah that's the diagram I'm talking about. But if the Father is not the Son nor is the Holy Spirit the Father that would make God three Gods not one. So its a contradiction? Like I said I believe in the Trinity I'm just trying to understand it.

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I believe that may be one way to distinguish Christianity from Judaism and Islam?
Those religions don't believe in the Trinity concept as we do.

Perhaps because of Deut 6:4?

Deuteronomy 6:4 Hear-thou Yisra'el--,YHWH, Elohiym of us, YHWH one.

Mark 12:29 Jesus answered him "that first of all the commandments 'be thou hearing! Israel, LORD, the Elohiym of us, LORD one is'".

https://www.quora.com/Why-do-Judaism-and-Islam-reject-the-Trinity-as-not-being-monotheistic
Why do Judaism and Islam reject the Trinity as not being monotheistic?

In order to answer this question properly I will first define the Terms.

• Monotheism: The belief in One deity.
• Pure Monotheism: The belief in One deity without parts or structure.
• Partial Monotheism: The belief in One deity with parts.

Judaism and Islam view Partial Monotheism as the belief in a deity comprised of sub deities also know as parts. Both Judaism and Islam agree that this is Polytheism (the belief in more than one diety).

Therefore according to Judaism and Islam the belief in the trinity is polytheistic and pagan.

mmbattlestar said:

I believe in the trinity but I don't quite understand how it works. How can God be three persons yet still continue to be one God? Wouldn't that make God three separate Gods? The frequently posted diagram sort of explains the trinity. Both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God but the Father is not the Son. Nor is the Holy Spirit the Father...etc But how is that possible? God is three separate persons yet one God? It doesn't make any sense. Can someone please explain to me how the Trinity works?

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Jesus taught a parable about three entities. One was the farmer or vine pruner, the second was the vine and the third were the vine's branches. They were different, but part of the same system.

John 15:1-5 - World English Bible/Public Domain
15 “I am the true vine, and my Father is the farmer. 2 Every branch in me that doesn’t bear fruit, he takes away. Every branch that bears fruit, he prunes, that it may bear more fruit. 3 You are already pruned clean because of the word which I have spoken to you. 4 Remain in me, and I in you. As the branch can’t bear fruit by itself, unless it remains in the vine, so neither can you, unless you remain in me. 5 I am the vine. You are the branches. He who remains in me, and I in him, the same bears much fruit, for apart from me you can do nothing."

Paul taught about a body having different members and functions, yet it remained as one body.
I Corinthians 12:12-31

mmbattlestar said:

But Isn't that the doctrine of the Trinity? That God is one God in three persons and that they're three completely separate beings?

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No, that's not the doctrine.

mmbattlestar said:

I believe in the trinity but I don't quite understand how it works. How can God be three persons yet still continue to be one God? Wouldn't that make God three separate Gods? The frequently posted diagram sort of explains the trinity. Both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God but the Father is not the Son. Nor is the Holy Spirit the Father...etc But how is that possible? God is three separate persons yet one God? It doesn't make any sense. Can someone please explain to me how the Trinity works?

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You need a bit of study...the Greek thinkers of the Nicean Era use this language....one Ousia in three Hypostases...which means the One and Only God (YHVH) has revealed Himself in three personae (the Father, the Word/Son, and the Spirit). YHVH IS the Father, the same YHVH IS the Word/Son, the same YHVH IS the Spirit (and each IS YHVH). However the Father is not the Son or the Spirit and the Son is not the others nor is the Spirit the others. The Father is all that YHVH is but ever unmanifest (transcendent), the Word/Son is all that YHVH is that can become manifest, the Spirit is YHVH manifest to us, in us, and through us as we experience YHVH throughout life.

As Jesus teaches no man has ever seen the Father neither have they heard His voice, the Word or Son has declared Him (made Him manifest). So in the Old Testament whenever YHVH appears (in any of many forms even as a man) it is the Word/Son (YHVH manifest)...the Spirit is experienced but never appears in a form...He speaks but in us not audibly outside of us.

This concept actually begins in one of the Judaic traditions we see in the Targums of the 1st and 2nd century where they speak about "the Word of YHVH" as referring to when YHVH personifies Himself for man's sake.

Later, in the New Testament Scriptures, we see this idea of Him being the “visible image of the invisible God” as applied to Jesus Christ (Messiah), and is emphasized, as we have seen, by the use of two words. One of the two Greek words interpreted “image” is “karacter”, and this literally refers to a die or a seal. From this concept we derive our word “Character”. It is an outward picture or sign that identifies who an important individual actually is in person, role, or status, and such a seal often carried with it a sense of that person’s full presence and authority!

The second Greek word used is “ikon“, and is alleged to be a true representation of something or someone. These scriptures were later used by Eastern Orthodoxy to defend their practice of making Icons to inspire reverence.

In the Targum Jonathan on Genesis 19:24 Jonathan writes, “and the Memra (Word) of YHVH caused to descend upon the people of Sodom and Gomorrah, brimstone and fire from the YHVH in heaven“. If you compare this passage in the Masoretic or the Septuagint, or even the KJV or NASV, this “Word of YHVH“ is referred here as the LORD (YHVH), yet here He is, sitting with father Abraham in his tent, in the form of a man, in the fields of Mamre, breaking bread. They have just shared bread together, and this YHVH has sent forth the other two "men" (actually angels) who came with Him, to perform this historical act of God’s judgment.

It takes little effort to see that this "Word of God" was actually believed by the Jewish Targumim to be none other than YHVH Himself manifest (either in the flesh or as a theophany). We Christians call this unique person of the Godhead “the Son“. The reference to “Son” is actually also from pre-Christian Hebrew tradition (see Enoch, 105: 2; IV Esdras 7:28-29; 13:32, 37, 52; 14:9, and more). The tag “son” or “son of”, in the Hebrew culture, referred more to likeness or role rather than a progressive biological lineage. The “sons of Belial” were not literally Belial’s children in a biological sense. But who they are is very real and very important. In the world they are as Belial. They are like Belial and follow after his ways. Some in fact are implied to be under His control. On occasion, in ancient times before being contained and restrained, some orders of angels could come as a man or appear as one (they still may). This being the case here, Messiah ben-Yosef is likewise one like unto Joseph, and Messiah ben-David is one like unto David. In our case, both Joseph and David were types of which Christ is anti-type. They are a shadow and He is the reality; son of man and the Son of God.

On Exodus 24:1, The Targum Jonathan understands the scripture to be saying, “the Word of YHVH said to Moses, come up to YHVH“, and just previously in 20:1, he said, “and the Word of the LORD spoke all these glorious words“!

In Exodus 3, the Angel of the Lord who later reveals Himself to be I AM (the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob) is none other than the Word/Son making YHVH manifest.

Targum Onkelos renders Genesis 15:6 as, “and Abraham trusted in the Word of YHVH, and He counted it to him for righteousness“, while the Jerusalem Targum on Genesis 22:14 says, “and Abraham worshipped and prayed in the name of the Word of YHVH and said, You are the YHVH who does see, but You cannot be seen“. In Genesis 16:3 he has Hagar praying “in the name of the Word of YHVH“, as if God had made Himself seeable, and yet she was not consumed!

Targum Onkelos on Genesis 28 reveals to us that the Memra (the Word) was Jacob’s God. The one with whom He wrestled (in the form of a man) and about whom he said "I have seen God face to face”. In Psalm 62:9 He is David’s God as well. Targum Jonathan says “the Word of YHVH created man in His likeness, in the likeness of YHVH, YHVH created...”. In the Jerusalem Targum the Word is the “I Am“ of Exodus 3:14! If the Targumim were correct then all the “I Am with you” passages are referring to the Word or Memra, thus Immanu-El.

I know this is a difficult concept for western thinkers (especially moderns) but I think this should help.

May the grace of God be on us all...

pshun2404 said:

You need a bit of study...the Greek thinkers of the Nicean Era use this language....one Ousia in three Hypostases...which means the One and Only God (YHVH) has revealed Himself in three personae (the Father, the Word/Son, and the Spirit). YHVH IS the Father, the same YHVH IS the Word/Son, the same YHVH IS the Spirit (and each IS YHVH).....................

May the grace of God be on us all...

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That word is also used in the greek word "parousia".
It appears to be made up of 2 greek words "par" and "ousia", which is only mentioned 4 times in the Gospels and that in Matthew [Olivet Discourse]. The rest are in the Epistles:

"Parousia" mentioned 24 Times

parousiaV <3952> Mentioned 6 times. Matt 24:3; Phil 1:26; 2 Thess 2:1,8; James 5:7; 2 Peter 3:4

Parousia <3952> Mentioned 15 times. Matt 24:27, 37, 39; 1 Corin 15:23, 16:17; 2 Corin 7:6,7, 10:10; Phil 2:12; 1 Thess 2:19, 3:13, 5:23; 2 Thess 2:9; James 5:8, 1 John 2:28

parousian <3952> Mentioned 3 Times 1 thess 4:15; 2 Peter 1:16; 2 Peter 3:12

It appears to have the prefix "par" and "ousia"

par - WordReference.com Dictionary of English
par

1. an equality in value; a level of equality:[countable; usually singular;on/at + a + ~]The company saw its gains rise on a par with losses.
2. an average or normal amount, degree, etc.:

Strong's Greek: 3776. οὐσία (ousia) -- substance, property

Ousia - Wikipedia

ousia

New Testament
The word ousia is not used in the New Testament except in relation to the substance in the sense of goods twice in the parable of the Prodigal Son where the son asked his father to divide to him his inheritance, and then wasted it on riotous living.[3][4]

An apparently related word, epiousios (affixing the prefix epi- to the word), is used in the Lord's Prayer, but nowhere else in the scriptures. Elsewhere, it was believed to be present in one papyrus (a list of expenses) among expenses for chick-peas, straw etc., and for material.[5] In 1998, according to a xerographic copy of a papyrus found in the Yale Papyrus Collection (from the Beinecke Rare Book and Manuscript Library) inventory 19 (a.k.a. P.C.+YBR inv 19), it was suggested that the document had been transcribed differently from other early manuscripts and that the actual word used in that particular papyrus was elaiou, meaning "oil".[6]

Early Christianity
Origen (d. 251) used ousia in defining God as one genus of ousia, while being three, distinct species of hypostasis: the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. The Synods of Antioch condemned the word homoousios (same substance) because it originated in pagan Greek philosophy.[citation needed] The Catholic Encyclopedia entry for Paul of Samosata states:

God is one "what?" and three "who?". What is God? One, undivided perfect Being, simple (without parts), eternal and allmighty. Who is God? Father, Son and Holy Spirit.

Often it is easier to say what the Trinity is not, as shown multiple times here. Analogies and metaphors can help, as long as you know that they are not truly accurate. Augustine said it so simple: "For if you do comprehend it, it is not God" (Sermones 117:3).

This is my opinion about the trinity. We are made in the image of God. We are made in his image and his likeness. We have a body, soul, and spirit. These things are interconnected in ways that we do not know. But I am just me. I do not know to what degree these 3 aspects are independent of each other and to what degree they are inseparable. I do know that without all 3 of these, I would not be me. I could say we, referring to myself and emphasizing the fullness of what it is to be human, or I could say I because I am referring to myself as a distinct individual.

We are made in His likeness and image, but we are not Him. He is completely spirit and boundless. So what would that look like? We have no idea. But, we have a finite example, which is us as individuals. Given that we can’t even figure ourselves out, good luck understanding God’s makeup.

Of course you don't understand it. There are some things mere human minds simply cannot understand. But God, Whose infinite mind understands all things, has said that it is true, and so we accept it in faith.

These verses stick out to me

God telling Jacob to go make an altar to God who appeared to him

Genesis 35:1
And God said unto Jacob, Arise, go up to Bethel, and dwell there: and make there an altar unto God, that appeared unto thee when thou fleddest from the face of Esau thy brother.

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When Jacob made the alter of Bethel, he dedicated it to YHWH-Elohim/The LORD God


The Messenger of YHWH telling Jacob that he is God

Genesis 31:11-13
And the angel of God spake unto me in a dream, saying, Jacob: And I said, Here am I.
And he said, Lift up now thine eyes, and see, all the rams which leap upon the cattle areringstraked, speckled, and grisled: for I have seen all that Laban doeth unto thee.
I am the God of Bethel, where thou anointedst the pillar, and where thou vowedst a vow unto me

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When Jacob blessed Joseph, he said the angel of YHWH was his God and the God of his fathers

Genesis 48:15-16
He blessed Joseph, and said, “The God before whom my fathers Abraham and Isaac walked, the God who has been my shepherd all my life to this day, the angel who has redeemed me from all evil, bless the lads"

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mmbattlestar said:

But Isn't that the doctrine of the Trinity? That God is one God in three persons and that they're three completely separate beings?

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Nope.

The language we use is very specific.

The word "being" refers to the Ousia, (Greek for "being", "essence", or "substance); it refers to the quality of "what-ness", what a thing is.

The word "person" is used to refer to Hypostasis (Greek for "subsistance"); it refers to a kind of "this-ness".

God is one Something, and three Someones.

The Three are one undivided Being: God.

-CryptoLutheran

mmbattlestar said:

About the best explanation of the Trinity that I've seen in this whole thread is about we are body, soul, and spirit. Therefore we are three in one just as God is three in one. Since we are made just like God, God must be three in one as well.

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I believe this is incorrect.

If you see my body you are not necessarily seeing my soul and if you see my soul you are not necessarily seeing my body.

Whereas if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father.

Along that line we see that Jesus was called "Everlasting Father", "Prince of Peace", and "Wonderful Counselor" - and the Holy Spirit is "God" in us, "Christ" in us and the "Holy Spirit" in us.

And all this at the same time.

Mysterious.

This goes along with what we teach in seminary about the "immensity" of God. That doctrine does not state that God is really "big" (although He is). But God is also very small at the same time He is very big.

That doctrine specifies that God is everywhere present at all times and "in His entirety and without division". God is infinite and not finite.

He "fills Heaven and earth" not in the same way, say, steam fills a room. He is not some of Him here and some of Him there.

As the attributes of God are not divisible - the nature and presence of God as a whole is not divisible.

The important thing IMO is not that we explain adequately how the Trinity can be but that we formulate our statement concerning what the Trinity is in such a way that it precludes either modalism, tripartism, or polytheism.

The definition I have used and taught since early on in Bible school does just that.

"We believe in one true God, beside whom there is no other. The one true God exists eternally as three distinct persons - each one of which posses within Himself all of the attributes necessary that He might be correctly referred to as the one true God."

That was easy. But truly understanding it is not easy.

Although it may turn out to be not exactly correct - I believe the "love" between the Father and Son explains the Trinity best for us. After all God is the one who told us that "God is love". Love is and best explains God's very nature.

Explaining what I mean by that statement would take another post to unpack.

Are you figuring out what I said earlier friend? A finite mind trying to comprehend a infinite God. lol

mmbattlestar said:

I believe in the trinity but I don't quite understand how it works. How can God be three persons yet still continue to be one God? Wouldn't that make God three separate Gods? The frequently posted diagram sort of explains the trinity. Both the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are all God but the Father is not the Son. Nor is the Holy Spirit the Father...etc But how is that possible? God is three separate persons yet one God? It doesn't make any sense. Can someone please explain to me how the Trinity works?

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I question that one can believe a thing that they cannot articulate. First of all you have to be able to put your "belief" into words that can be received and understood by others. Therefore and also, those words must make sense. Not necessarily worldly or carnal sense, but at least they have to make sense in the context of their own definitions.
One plus one is four does not make make sense in any context. If anything, God makes sense. We may not understand everything about God, mainly because there is some mystery. God has not revealed everything to us. But what He has revealed makes perfect and complete sense.
"That red book is blue" is non-nonsensical. You can say you believe that all you want... but it makes no sense in the context of our understanding of colors. If you cannot explain to me how a book can be both red and blue at the same time, i would have to say you do not believe it. I mean anyone can throw together a grammatically correct sentence... that does not mean it is logical or even possible.
One sure sign that there is a problem is when someone has to invent a word to define their belief, and than assign that word a non-nonsensical definition.
I have to suggest that everything about God makes perfect sense. Jesus came to show us the Father. I for one believe that He succeeded. Everything we have to know about God has been shown to us, and it all makes perfect sense. If what you claim to believe about God does not make sense within the context of your definitions... I might suggest you think it through again. The answers are all there. People may not like the answers you discover... but you have to answer to the Lord...not people.

My understanding of the Holy Trinity is using human beings as an example.

God created us in his own image and likeness, therefore like him, we ourselves are also trinity: Body, Soul/Mind, and Spirit. Your soul gives you your identity, your spirit gives you your life, your body is your entire appearance. These 3 essences have different effects to the senses and these 3 essences = You: 1 human being. Same with God, his trinity is composed of Father/Son/Holy Spirit.

Marvin Knox said:

I believe this is incorrect.

If you see my body you are not necessarily seeing my soul and if you see my soul you are not necessarily seeing my body.

Whereas if you have seen the Son you have seen the Father.

Along that line we see that Jesus was called "Everlasting Father", "Prince of Peace", and "Wonderful Counselor" - and the Holy Spirit is "God" in us, "Christ" in us and the "Holy Spirit" in us.

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I think you need to have a better look at the example.

The body, soul, and spirit = you.. the human being. The soul is the identity, what makes you you. The spirit being your life force, while your body being the form of who you are. The body doesn't necessarily mean flesh and bone, just take that in note.

A body with out soul, a soul with out a body, or spirit with out a body, etc isn't completely 1 being. Your body is you, your soul is you, your spirit is you. Each of the 3 have different roles but they are all still you. Your body isn't a greater you, your mind isn't a greater you, nor your life force.. all are equal.

These are all essences of your entire being.

We are three intrinsically but one extrinsically, just like God.

I pray God your whole spirit and soul and body be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ (1 Thessalonians 5:23).