Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

Tetra said:

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

Click to expand...

You have to remember that wine was used in biblical times as a sterilizer because sanitized water was unavailable. Whilst the alcohol killed any bacteria, it was nowhere as potent as it is today.
Secondly, Jesus turned water in to wine at the wedding. It was His first miracle. He even drank the wine at the wedding. However, He didn’t get drunk on it.

Like today, it’s ok for Christians to drink, but know your limits. There’s a point when alcohol switches you from being in control of yourself to out of control. Then you commuting debauchery and all sorts of fleshly indulges.

The Bible doesn’t forbid drinking alcohol, it forbids you being controlled by it. Do not become drunk with wine

Non alcoholic wine in biblical days seems a bit far fetched because as I said, it was used to sanitize the water. If no alcohol, then no clean water/drink.

Strong drink is only permitted by God to be taken if someone is in mourning or if someone is on their deathbed. The reason being is to ease pain. It’s not allowed as a daily lifestyle. Drunkerds will not inherit the kingdom

Hope this helps,
Ps, I watched this sermon about drink and it really cleared things up,
Worth a watch in your own time
God bless

Jonathan Leo said:

You have to remember that wine was used in biblical times as a sterilizer because sanitized water was unavailable. Whilst the alcohol killed any bacteria, it was nowhere as potent as it is today.

Click to expand...

The wine was the same as today, because it was the same fermentation process that made it.

Jonathan Leo said:

The Bible doesn’t forbid drinking alcohol, it forbids you being controlled by it. Do not become drunk with wine

Click to expand...

True!

Tetra said:

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Click to expand...

It is irrelevant whether that wine was alcoholic or not.

What most Christians failed to see in that passage, was that Jesus complained to Mary about performing that miracle....They don't see that at all...Must be the side effect of wine in the system...

Tetra said:

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

Click to expand...

Six Biblical Reasons Why Jesus's Miracle Was Unfermented Wine (Fresh Grape Juice):

In fact, if Jesus made alcoholic wine He would have broken Scripture in a number of places and he would have encouraged future generations of alcoholics to have the green light that it is okay to drink (Whereby they would slip back into drinking themselves to death). Anyways, here are 6 reasons in the Bible that make it absolutely clear that Jesus could not have made intoxicating wine.

#1. Jesus's Pure Blood is likened to the Pure Wine that He made.
Jesus's blood washes away our sins. Scripture says the life of the flesh is in the blood. Jesus says He is the bread of life and that we are to eat of his flesh and blood. Jesus is life. However, alcohol is not a product of life but it is a picture or symbol of death because it is a byproduct of death and not life. This is why Christ made grape juice because it was a pure juice and it was worthy of reflecting his glory in Him being the perfect, sinless Son of God. "Butter of kine, and milk of sheep, with fat of lambs, and rams of the breed of Bashan, and goats, with the fat of kidneys of wheat; and thou didst drink the pure blood of the grape."(Deuteronomy 32:14).

#2. Woe unto him that gives his neighbor strong drink.
"Woe unto him that giveth his neighbour drink, that puttest thy bottle to him, and makest him drunken also," (Habakkuk 2:15). If Jesus gave strong drink to his fellow neighbors here, he would be under the woe of Habakkuk 2:15. This would not be a blessing for Jesus but it would be a curse if he were to disobey this part of Scripture.

#3. Jesus is a King (And wine is not for kings).
Jesus is a king and Jesus would not have ignored his own sage advice or wisdom within His Word that says "it is not for kings to drink wine; nor for princes strong drink" (Proverbs 31:4 KJV); And the very Scriptures themselves are a testimony of Jesus: "Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me" (John 5:39 KJV). So if this verse is true, I want you explain how Proverbs 31:4 is a testimony of Jesus Christ.

#4. Warnings against Alcohol.
Wine is a mocker (Proverbs 20:1). Strong drink is raging (Proverbs 20:1). Whoever is deceived by it is not wise (Proverbs 20:1). Wine bites like a serpent and stings like an adder (Proverbs 23:32). Do not look upon wine when it is red in the cup and when it moves itself aright (Proverbs 23:31). You have not eaten bread, neither have you drunk wine or strong drink: that you might know that I am the LORD your God. (Deuteronomy 29:6). Who has woe? who has sorrow? who has contentions? who has babbling? who has wounds without cause? who has redness of eyes? (Proverbs 23:29). They that tarry long at the wine; they that go to seek mixed wine. (Proverbs 23:30).

#5. If Jesus did get people drunk (It would be a sin) & They would no longer be Sober.
Jesus could not have made alcoholic wine because John chapter 2 says, that the people at the wedding were "well drunk" (John 2:10 KJV). This means that they had already had drank a good amount of wine already and would have been either tipsy or close to being tipsy (at the very least). Jesus creating more good wine (i.e. good wine supposedly meaning that it was stronger in alcoholic content) would have contributed to the intoxication of those at the wedding party. This means that if they were not sober before, Jesus creating even more stronger alcoholic wine would have definitely made them at least tipsy or with having a mind that was not sober. This is a direct violation of Scripture that commands Christians to be sober (1 Peter 1:13 KJV) (1 Peter 4:7 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:2 KJV) (1 Timothy 3:11 KJV) (Titus 1:8 KJV) (Titus 2:2 KJV) (Titus 2:4 KJV) (Titus 2:6 KJV) (Titus 2:12 KJV) (1 Thessalonians 5:6, 7, 8). For God's Word wants us to be sober minded for our adversary the devil, is a roaring lion, who walks about, seeking those whom he may devour (1 Peter 5:8 KJV). So were they sober at the wedding or not? Also, Paul even warns that drunkenness is the type of sin that will cause someone to not inherit the Kingdom of God, too (Galatians 5:21).

#6. Christ set a good example by His miracle.
The public creation of alcoholic wine would also contradict Romans chapter 14 that tells us that you are not to do anything to make your brother to stumble. For verse 21 says, "It is good neither to eat flesh, nor to drink wine, nor anything whereby thy brother stumbles, or is offended, or is made weak" (Romans 14:21 KJV). For a public wedding of drinking and the writing down of that event is like a giant billboard sign declaring to Christians who have struggled with alcoholism and have put it away could then think that it is okay to drink again (when their conscience condemns it and or because they are horribly addicted to it). This would be the same thing as a Christian drinking in front of an alcoholic (knowing they are an alcoholic); For if a Christian were to do so, they could make this alcoholic stumble back into alcoholism again. Which would be evil. For Romans 14 says, "Let not then your good be evil spoken of" (Romans 14:16 KJV). Jesus knows there are alcoholics who would read John chapter 2. Such a stamp of approval on alcohol could easily send them back into alcoholism. This would be evil.

Therefore, Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2; And nor did He even drink the Biblical wine that OT saints drank which was mixed with water and lower in alcoholic content. Jesus drank with his disciples of the fruit of the vine at the Last Supper. The fruit of the vine is what the Scriptures say He drank (Matthew 26:29). The fruit of the vine is grape juice! --- Not fermented intoxicating alcohol! That would be like calling an orange smoothie drink in being like the fruit of the orange!

Tetra said:

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

Click to expand...

Confusion arises on this topic because people do not realize that there are...

Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

Among the saints and various cultures, wine in Biblical Times was Mixed with Water.

This would be one of the three types of wine mentioned in the Bible.


I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”

(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

Tetra said:

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

Click to expand...

Many people today grew up in a culture that treated alcoholic beverages as if it is a normal thing. So of course they are going to be biased. How so? Well, an older dictionary says this about wine:

Wine:

1. The expressed juice of grapes, esp. when fermented;

Wine | Definition of Wine by Webster's Online Dictionary

It says the expressed juice of grapes. Then it says... (a continuation) especially (but not exclusive to) when it is fermented.

In fact, even the word "liquor" did not originally mean an alcholic substance. It means that today (of course), but back in the day, the word "liquor" meant this:

Liquor:

Liq´uor
n. 1. Any liquid substance, as water, milk, blood, sap, juice, or the like.

Liquor | Definition of Liquor by Webster's Online Dictionary

The word liquor can refer to any substance as water, milk, blood sap, juice, etc. It does not say it has to be alcoholic. But people today have been conditioned to think otherwise because of the culture they grew up in.

Even a Modern Dictionary (Online) says this in it's third definition:

Wine:

the juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits or plants, used as abeverage, sauce, etc.:

Source:
the definition of wine

Yet, people like their alcohol and or they had a romanticism with alcohol in their past and they cannot stand it if you attack their way of life. For them, alcohol brings them pleasure or it is a part of the acceptance of being a part of the world. I say this because I have argued this topic for weeks on other forums and folks will even ignore what the dictionary says. They become irrational and they are not willing to look at the facts.

Tetra said:

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

Click to expand...

But what about the Greek word?
Well, the English (within the NT) is translated from the Greek. In the English, the Bible does have homonyms within it. In fact, most all languages have homonyms. These are words that look and sound the same but they can have two different meanings. For example: The word "bark" can be the sound a dog makes and the word "bark" can refer to the outer skin of a tree. The context would determine the use of such a word (if somebody was not sure). This is how we have to read the Bible when encountering the word "wine' in the BIble (Regardless of whether it be a Greek word or an English word).

For example: "sons of God" can refer to both angels and or believers. Again, it depends on the context and how it is used. Most cases, the OT refers to angels as being the sons of God. But in the NT, sons of God generally refer to believers.

Tetra said:

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

Click to expand...

21 Warnings Against Alcohol in the Bible:


21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)


16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

Jason0047 said:

Confusion arises on this topic because people do not realize that there are...

Three Types of Wine in the Bible:

Among the saints and various cultures, wine in Biblical Times was Mixed with Water.

This would be one of the three types of wine mentioned in the Bible.

#1. Fermented Wine (Strong in alcoholic content).
#2. Fermented Wine Diluted by Water (Low in alcoholic content)
#3. Unfermented Wine or Freshly Squeezed Grape Juice (A non intoxicating beverage).​

I believe the wine during Bible times that the Old Testament saints drank was Wine Type #2, whereby it was a wine mixed with water and was lower in alcoholic content (Which was the wine seen at the Wedding of Cana before Christ made Wine Type #3, which was non intoxicating grape juice or unfermented wine); In other words, the wines commonly drank by the OT saints was not like the strong wines of today; And Jesus made grape juice that made was considered the “best wine.” Wines of today (By wine tasters) are considered the best by their taste and not how much they can intoxicate you.

Wine mixed (diluted) with Water Verses:

Revelation 14:10 says,

“The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb”

(Contrast this with Psalms 75:8)

1 Timothy 5:23 says,
"Drink no longer water, but use a little wine for thy stomach's sake and thine often infirmities."

Proverbs 9:2 (NIV) says,
"She has prepared her meat and mixed her wine; she has also set her table."

Proverbs 23:31 - Do not look at wine when it is red.

John 19:34 - Blood and water mingled together from Christ's side; And Scripture essentially says the wine in the Lord's supper is representative of Jesus's blood (See Matthew 26:27-29).

Isaiah 1:22 CJB
“Your silver is no longer pure, your wine is watered down.”

Pure silver, which would be too soft to be durable, is mixed with 5-20% copper in an alloy known as sterling silver.

How silver is made - material, making, history, used, processing, industry

If one were to take note: One has to mix copper in silver in order for it to be durable so as to be used. Just as one must use water in their mixture of wine to drink it more safely like an Israelite.

So the idea here is that the silver (mixed with copper) they use has become so dross (or watered down it is then cheap. Just as the wine (mixed with water) is diluted even more whereby it is cheap wine to the Israelite.

Wine could be carried in an undiluted state within leather skin like bottles and then later mixed with water for use. Timothy was told to use a little wine in his water because of the infirmities in his stomach. Paul was telling him to use Biblical wine so as to resolve a medical issue.

Extra Biblical Sources on how wine was mixed with water:

2 Maccabees 15:39, Talmud, and Justin Martyr, etc.

Click to expand...

Jason0047 said:

But what about the Greek word?
Well, the English (within the NT) is translated from the Greek. In the English, the Bible does have homonyms within it. In fact, most all languages have homonyms. These are words that look and sound the same but they can have two different meanings. For example: The word "bark" can be the sound a dog makes and the word "bark" can refer to the outer skin of a tree. The context would determine the use of such a word (if somebody was not sure). This is how we have to read the Bible when encountering the word "wine' in the BIble (Regardless of whether it be a Greek word or an English word).

For example: "sons of God" can refer to both angels and or believers. Again, it depends on the context and how it is used. Most cases, the OT refers to angels as being the sons of God. But in the NT, sons of God generally refer to believers.

Click to expand...

Paul tells Timothy to drink water no more. And Christ drank wine. It has nothing to do with whether or not I personally want to drink or not. Historically you have to really reach to say otherwise. The Bible does however warn against strong drink, and considering they had things like vodka even back then, that is likely what it is referring to.

Jason0047 said:

21 Warnings Against Alcohol in the Bible:


21 Warnings That Speak Against The Alcoholic Beverage Itself.
(That is not specifically or exclusively talking about drunkenness)

Passages For the Old Testament Saint:

(Before the Cross: The OT Saint did not have a liberty in Christ to drink intoxicating beverages)
(Just as they did not have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)

1) Deuteronomy 29:5-6
- God gave no grape juice to Israel nor did they have intoxicating drink in the wilderness.
(The reason for this action was taken so as to show how they knew God).

2) Deuteronomy 32:33
- Enemy's wine is like the poison of serpents vs. Israelite's pure blood of the grape (verse 14).

3) 1 Samuel 1:14-15
- Accused, Hannah said she drank no wine.

4) Proverbs 4:17
- Alcoholic drink is called the wine of violence.

5) Proverbs 20:1
- Wine is a mocker, strong drink is raging.

6) Proverbs 23:31
- God instructs not to look at intoxicating drinks.

7) Proverbs 23:32
- Alcoholic drinks bite like a serpent, sting like an adder.

8) Proverbs 23:35
- Alcohol makes the drinker insensitive to pain so he does not perceive it as a warning.
(It also says Alcohol is habit forming).

9) Proverbs 31:4-5
- Kings, Princes, and others who rule and judge must not drink alcohol. Alcohol perverts good judgment.

10) Ecclesiastes 2:3
- The king tried everything, including intoxicating drink, to see if it satisfied. It did not.
(c.f. Ecclesiastes 12:8)

11) Ecclesiastes 10:17
- A land is blessed when its leaders do not drink.

12) Isaiah 5:22
- There is a woe unto them who mix strong drinks.

13) Jeremiah 35:2-14
- The Rechabites drank no grape juice or intoxicating wine and were blessed.

14) Daniel 1:5-17
- Daniel refused the king’s intoxicating wine and was blessed for it along with his abstaining friends.

15) Hosea 4:11
- Intoxicating wine seduces the heart.


Passages For the New Testament Saint:

(After the Cross: NT Saints (Not All) have a liberty in Christ to drink alcohol soberly & privately)
(Just as they have a liberty in Christ to eat unclean animals)
(Those whose conscience condemns them in drinking are not to drink)
(Those who are leaders in the church are not to drink alcohol)


16) Romans 14:21
- Do not do anything (Including drinking intoxicating beverages) to make your brother to stumble.

17) 1 Timothy 3:2-3
- Bishops (elders) are to be temperate, sober, and not near any wine.

18) 1 Timothy 3:8
- Deacons are to be worthy of respect and not drinkers.

19) 1 Timothy 3:11
- Deacons’ wives are to be temperate and sober.

20) Titus 1:7-8
- A bishop is not to be given to wine.

21) Titus 2:2-3
- The older men and older women of the church are to be temperate and not addicted to wine.


Source Used:
75 Bible References on Drinking Alcohol
(Please take note that I only agree with the Scripture that they posted; This does not mean I am in agreement with the author's other beliefs on other topics).

Click to expand...

Most of these NT verses you use say sober minded. That it to be sober and serious in spirit. It has nothing to do with consumtion of wine. We are all to be sober in spirit.

Jason0047 said:

In fact, if Jesus made alcoholic wine He would have broken Scripture in a number of places

Click to expand...

Not really. Psalm 104:15: "wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart."

Jason0047 said:

However, alcohol is not a product of life

Click to expand...

Yes it is. Living things make it -- yeasts, which God has conveniently caused to grow on the grapes themselves.

Jason0047 said:

Therefore, Jesus did not create alcoholic wine as a part of His miracle in John 2

Click to expand...

Yes he did; that's what the word means. And there was wine at the Last Supper too.

☦Marius☦ said:

Paul tells Timothy to drink water no more. And Christ drank wine. It has nothing to do with whether or not I personally want to drink or not. Historically you have to really reach to say otherwise. The Bible does however warn against strong drink, and considering they had things like vodka even back then, that is likely what it is referring to.

Click to expand...

The Israelite drank their wine diluted with water. Generally speaking: Barbarians or Gentiles drank wine or alcoholic drinks undiluted. Just look at the Gentile world today. They haven’t changed.

Jason0047 said:

But what about the Greek word?
Well, the English (within the NT) is translated from the Greek. In the English, the Bible does have homonyms within it.

Click to expand...

The Greek word oinos is not a homonym. It is a word meaning wine.

Jason0047 said:

The Israelite drank their wine diluted with water. Generally speaking: Barbarians or Gentiles drank wine or alcoholic drinks undiluted.

Click to expand...

Actually, the Greek diluted their wine too; three parts water to one part wine was typical, giving a drink with the strength of beer. They still got drunk if they drank enough of it.

We have written descriptions of the mixing process, and pictures, and many examples of the mixing bowls they used.

Tetra said:

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

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The only people I have met to whom this is even important are very conservative, Protestant Christians, usually Baptist or the like. Are you in this category?

Tetra said:

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

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Hi tetra,

I don't have any problem understanding that Jesus made alcoholic wine for a wedding celebration. I'm sure it would have been the common drink for such an event, much as it still is today. However, the Scriptures have nothing good to say about alcoholic drinks other than it can have some medicinal properties according to Paul.

I have read some posts here that seem to suggest as 'fact' that in those days, without refrigeration, one couldn't have stored grape juice for very long without it naturally fermenting or going bad. I'm not sure that's a true statement.

I once had a pastor who did a teaching on how grapes were processed in the days of Jesus' time. His understanding was that grapes could be fermented into alcoholic wine and some of it would have been. However, he also explained that people, much like today, didn't like to drink just plain old tasteless water all the time and so what they would do would be to crush the grapes and allow them to dry into a sort of paste. This paste could be carried around with them as they journeyed and when they came upon some water they would put the dried grape 'paste' into the water to give it flavor.

As a dried paste, the grape flavoring would last for months. It would be a lot like taking a fruit rollup today and dissolving it in a glass of water to flavor the water. Of course, the processing of fruit rollups don't make them quite as amenable to dissolving in water as the simple drying of a grape concentrate might.

Now, I'm not an expert in the processing of the grape harvest 2,000 years ago, so I can't say with any certainty that such a thing is definitely true, but it certainly sounds quite reasonable. I have a hard time believing that the use of grapes as a source of flavoring water was always going to be with some alcohol content. Certainly there were celebratory events where alcoholic wine would be the preferred drink at the table, but I just have a hard time believing that it always had to be.

We use grape flavoring in all sorts of drinks and I can't see why man couldn't have figured out a way to do something similar without it always and only being alcoholic drink. After all, ancient man built the pyramids that even today stump many engineers as to how they could have done it. They built sailing ships and understood the movement of the stars and other heavenly bodies in order to navigate. Today we seem to have this idea that ancient man was, for lack of a better word, 'stupid' or 'ignorant' and I just don't think that's a fair assessment of those days. While they didn't have the mechanization that we have today that allows us to do so much, they had manpower by the thousands.

Rome built aqueducts that carried water for miles that still baffles people as to how they could have done such a thing. They understood that an arch was the strongest upright support feature because the weight above actually made the arch more secure. So, I have a hard time understanding that such minds couldn't have come up with a way to store the flavor of the grape harvest for a fairly long period of time. It was, after all, the largest crop to be universally grown in its day. In both the old and the new covenant writings we read of vineyards and I imagine that everyone knew what they were. Seems to me that it wouldn't have taken long, way back in the old covenant days, for a couple of folks to figure out how to store the flavoring of the grapes for long periods of time.

Necessity, after all, is the mother of invention. But, as far as Jesus having made fermented wine with the water in those jugs? I have no problem with that at all. However, it never says that he drank any of it. Whether he did or not cannot be proven either way.

God bless,
In Christ, ted

Radagast said:

Not really. Psalm 104:15: "wine to gladden the heart of man, oil to make his face shine and bread to strengthen man’s heart."

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The Israelite drank wine mixed with water. So it will still give the person who drinks it a happy feeling.

You said:

Yes it is. Living things make it -- yeasts, which God has conveniently caused to grow on the grapes themselves.

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A baby deer can be good for the lion to live, but the baby deer has to die. The yeast feeds of the life of the grape. This is a process of death.

You said:

Yes he did; that's what the word means. And there was wine at the Last Supper too.

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Wine can be defined as unfermented or fermented according to the dictionary.

Steve Petersen said:

The only people I have met to whom this is even important are very conservative, Protestant Christians, usually Baptist or the like. Are you in this category?

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I don’t associate with Protestant or Baptist because I am strongly against Once Saved Always Saved or a sin and still be saved doctrine (on some level). But I would say I am conservative and not liberal.

☦Marius☦ said:

Most of these NT verses you use say sober minded. That it to be sober and serious in spirit. It has nothing to do with consumtion of wine. We are all to be sober in spirit.

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Let’s not kid ourselves here. If you drink an alcoholic beverage, you are not sober minded like you were when did not have that alcohol.

Jason0047 said:

The Israelite drank their wine diluted with water. Generally speaking: Barbarians or Gentiles drank wine or alcoholic drinks undiluted. Just look at the Gentile world today. They haven’t changed.

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The Greek and Roman custom was to take fully fermented wine, known Biblically as "strong drink" (about 16% alcohol), and cutting it with water to reduce the alcoholic content. My understanding is that was drunk at 4% to 8% according to taste. Beer was actually far more common than wine.