Did Jesus Make Alcoholic Wine?

[PaulCyp1]

There is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine. Wine is produced by the fermentation of grape juice, and fermentation produces alcohol. Wine was the common drink of the time - for everyone. Why wouldn't it be?

 

[Jonathan Leo]

There is no such thing as non-alcoholic wine. Wine is produced by the fermentation of grape juice, and fermentation produces alcohol. Wine was the common drink of the time - for everyone. Why wouldn't it be?

True point,
When I made my own wine, I was fascinated to how alcohol is made.
You need yeast. Yeast is a living bacteria.
You need sugar. Sugar is food for yeast
Alcohol is the waste produced by yeast eating sugar
Alcohol is waste.
Who would have taught that waste could be so good lol

 

[Bible Highlighter]

In reference to passages like Deuteronomy 14:23-26:

The Isrealite would buy strong drink, but he would then dilute it with water for drinking. The Israelite could store strong drink longer and they could also use it for medical reasons or for santizing water for drinking. But they did not drink alcohol undiluted. Only barbarians did that. For Scripture says do not look at wine when it is red, etc.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

What is dumb is that folks think that there is no such thing as wine that was not alcoholic. Just look at a dictionary and it will say wine can be either fermented or unfermented. There were ancient ways to preserve grape juice back in the day. Just Google it.

 

[Steve Petersen]

What is dumb is that folks think that there is no such thing as wine that was not alcoholic. Just look at a dictionary and it will say wine can be either fermented or unfermented. There were ancient ways to preserve grape juice back in the day. Just Google it.

Generally, we call unfermented wine grape juice.

 

[gideon123]

The actions of Jesus of Nazareth confounded the ' religious authorities' of his day. And they still do today.

Hanging out with prostitutes.
Turning water into real wine.
Offering forgiveness to the scum on the street.

I give thanks that the Son Of God walked among us.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

If anyone is interested in what I said on this topic and my explanations in regards to pretty much most questions and verses (on this topic), they can see these threads here at Christian Forums.

The Bible and Older Dictionaries say that 'wine" is also grape juice.

6 Biblical Reasons Why Jesus Made Unfermented Wine (Grape Juice).

And this thread at ChristianChat:

Jesus turned water into unfermented wine and not fermented wine. - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

Note: Keep in mind I was wrongfully banned at ChristianChat without any warnings or points, etc. I was instantly banned one day because they said I was judging somebody's salvation when that was not the case. A week prior, a lady goaded me to judge her salvation. I refused and then went on vacation for a week. When I came back to ChristianChat, I was banned. This lady did not want me to preach so strongly against Once Saved, Always Saved. But it is okay. I forgive and pray for her. Besides, I like it better here at Christian Forums.

May God bless you all today.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Generally, we call unfermented wine grape juice.

Look at Dictionary.com's 3rd definition.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

Wine, Knowledge, and Our Conscience.

I believe a saint can drink today's wine and not be condemned. I believe in their ignorance, they would be saved. For Paul says you can drink anything. Granted, Paul is not telling us to tempt the LORD and drink known poisons. But see, that is just it. Alcohol is a poison and many Christians today do not realize that fact. So while it is lawful for certain Christians to drink today's wine (so as not to get drunk). If they learn that wine is a poison (like myself) and they know it can only lead to destruction and they socially drink it (despite their conscience condemning them), they are committing sin. But if they do not believe alcohol is in any way harmful and their conscience is clear 100%, then they are free to drink socially as long as they do not get drunk. Granted, in the Old Testament, there was no such liberty that we have in Christ. In the Old Testament, drinking strong wine would have been a sin.

Let's say you are enjoying a nice glass of wine at your local restaurant when you are approached by a fellow believer in Christ who says, "I am offended to see you drink that wine." "My brother used to look up to you for spiritual strength and now he has fallen back into alcoholism because of your public drinking here." What should you think, say or do?

Also, let's say a new believer is baptized and becomes a member of your church. While an unbeliever, he continuously abused drugs and alcohol. Upon becoming a Christian, he vowed to the Lord that he would never use drugs or alcohol ever again. The church (of which he is now a member) uses wine as a part of the Lord's Supper. What happens if this person stumbles back into alcoholism because of their use of alcoholic wine in the Lord's supper? What should the elders think, say or do at this point? Should they continue to use alcohol in the Lord's supper knowing it could make more alcoholics to potentially stumble again?

For drinking soberly and in the privacy of your own home is not the same thing as drinking openly where others could see you and potentially stumble.

So while it is lawful to drink soberly and in private, Jesus did not turn water into alcoholic wine as if he placed his seal of approval upon it for you to do the same in public. Jesus calls you to pick up your cross and to deny yourself in everything in your life. For we are supposed to be holy and separate from the world and not be associated with the unfruitful works of darkness. We are to dedicate our lives to Jesus in all things for our love for Him. Not out of some sense of legalism, but out of love. Love for God (Jesus) and love for your fellow brother.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

So I was thinking about this more as I have seen it come up on various threads (including my own).

I don't really know if this is a debatable topic, since the Greek word for wine is the same in John 2, as it is in say Ephesians 5:18 when it states "do not get drunk with wine", yet some still debate it...

The Greek word for wine: Oinos
Strongs Greek:
Strong's Greek: 3631. οἶνος (oinos) -- wine

A couple questions come to mind for those that believe Jesus made non-alcoholic wine.

1) Do you disagree with the original Greek word that is used? Do you have an alternate translation that you're working from?

2) How do you translate verses in the Bible where alcoholic wine is mentioned in a positive way? i.e. Ecclesiastes 9:7, Amos 9:14

3) Why would it be relevant if Jesus made alcoholic wine or not?

Hope to hear some of your thoughts CF.

Tetra

The 4 major views on Alcohol:

#1. Prohibitionist

Believes that the bible absolutely prohibits the consumption of alcoholic beverages; And it is a sin to drink it. This position is defeated by the fact that Timothy was told by Paul to have a little wine within his water for the infirmities of his stomach. This was not a medical prescription for everyday stomach problems but it was for the purification of water (because some people do not have the tolerance or immune system to handle it). Also, Romans 14 tells us that all things are indeed pure. So drinking can be permissible as long as one does not drink to get drunk or to make their brother to stumble. So the Prohibitionist view that it is a sin to drink wine is not necessarily spelled out to us in Scripture; And cannot be supported as a solid viable position.

#2. Abstentionist

Believes that the bible does not absolutely prohibit the consumption of alcohol but for numerous reasons, Christians should abstain from using it. In this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded. Also, this view holds that drinking should be done in private and not publicly where your brother could see you and stumble. This view recommends that while it is lawful for you to drink, it is not always profitable so it is highly encouraged to abstain from it. Not out of some sense of legalism but out of love for God, yourself and your brother. Thus, it preaches the reality of the dangers of alcohol and how it can bite you like a serpent (despite it being lawful).

#3. Undecided

Those that are not sure if drinking alcohol is right or wrong.

#4. Moderationist

Believes that alcoholic drinks are a gift from God that should be, like all of God’s gifts, consumed moderately. However, the problem with this view is that many of the Moderationists do not warn against the dangers of alcohol. They only paint half the picture that alcohol is good and they get overly defensive in their consumption of alcohol when encouraged to walk the higher road out of love and not as a commandment or legal law within God's Word. Many or most Moderationists believe they can even drink in front of others publicly because Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine publicly. Thus, many of them believe that public drinking could not lead a brother to potentially to stumble (When clearly such a reality could happen).

However, that said, I also believe there is a small number of responsible drinking moderationists who drink in a way to stay sober minded and who believe the proper thing to do is to preach against drunkenness strongly. These Moderationists do not want to do anything to make their brother to stumble. They drink knowing that the beverage they have in their hands is potentially dangerous but yet they drink soberly to the glory of God in private. However, in good conscience, it is my duty as a Christian to remind even these Christians that it can bite like a serpent if they start to forget the dangers of this deadly drug. In fact, it is my encouragement that they walk the higher road and show that they are different from the rest of the world. Again, not out of legalism, but out of love.

My viewpoint:

Oh, and so that there is no more confusion, I want to let people know that I am an "Abstentionist" and I believe that it is the Biblical view based on the whole of Scripture.

The Old Testament saints (Not the New Testament saints) were forbidden to even look at a strong alcoholic beverage let alone drink it. There were many warnings against drinking strong alcoholic drinks in the OT.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Bolded above....is this an estimate of yours or from a historical source? Just curious.

I would gather the percentage could be cut down even further for those who did not want to be impaired.

Ping for @Jason0047 who has done some research as well.

Thanks for mentioning me, brother.
I put my main thoughts in on this topic, but I will not heavily debate this anymore.
I debated this topic too many times before;
Plus, people can get completely irrational without looking at the facts objectively, as well.

Anyways, may God bless you.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

...

 

[Tetra]

To all:

The Nature of Alcohol

Alcoholic wine is a product of decay and death. God creates things that are full of life and things that are good. If you were to take alcohol and put it in a cup and then put some dirty coins in there, the alcohol would clean the coins. If you were to put a small piece of fruit or meat in the alcohol, it would dry it out. The alcohol has no understanding of being outside your body or inside your body. Soon as it enters the body, it does the same thing. It seeks to dry out things and to destroy your living tissue. But it is a good thing we have an immune system that can fight back so as to survive. In other words, alcohol is a very minor poison that your body can counter effects of whereby you will not die. But the abuse of this poison can easily kill you because of it's harmful effects.

As a nursing student, I'm kind of confused by this reasoning as it would mean the vast majority of helpful medications wouldn't be permitted according to your perspective. The difference between a medicine and a poison is dosage. Do you also have this view regarding medication?

(side note, from a chemistry perspective, you're incorrect but I won't debate that issue here)

 

[Tetra]

It’s not allowed as a daily lifestyle. Drunkerds will not inherit the kingdom

I personally don't claim knowledge as to who will or will not be in heaven, if you do, rock on man. Regardless, it wont stop me from enjoying a brew.

 

[dqhall]

The 4 major views on Alcohol:

#1. Prohibitionist

Believes that the bible absolutely prohibits the consumption of alcoholic beverages; And it is a sin to drink it. This position is defeated by the fact that Timothy was told by Paul to have a little wine within his water for the infirmities of his stomach. This was not a medical prescription for everyday stomach problems but it was for the purification of water (because some people do not have the tolerance or immune system to handle it). Also, Romans 14 tells us that all things are indeed pure. So drinking can be permissible as long as one does not drink to get drunk or to make their brother to stumble. So the Prohibitionist view that it is a sin to drink wine is not necessarily spelled out to us in Scripture; And cannot be supported as a solid viable position.

#2. Abstentionist

Believes that the bible does not absolutely prohibit the consumption of alcohol but for numerous reasons, Christians should abstain from using it. In this view, any amount of drinking that causes one to not be sober in any way directly contradicts those passages that tell us to be sober minded. Also, this view holds that drinking should be done in private and not publicly where your brother could see you and stumble. This view recommends that while it is lawful for you to drink, it is not always profitable so it is highly encouraged to abstain from it. Not out of some sense of legalism but out of love for God, yourself and your brother. Thus, it preaches the reality of the dangers of alcohol and how it can bite you like a serpent (despite it being lawful).

#3. Undecided

Those that are not sure if drinking alcohol is right or wrong.

#4. Moderationist

Believes that alcoholic drinks are a gift from God that should be, like all of God’s gifts, consumed moderately. However, the problem with this view is that many of the Moderationists do not warn against the dangers of alcohol. They only paint half the picture that alcohol is good and they get overly defensive in their consumption of alcohol when encouraged to walk the higher road out of love and not as a commandment or legal law within God's Word. Many or most Moderationists believe they can even drink in front of others publicly because Jesus turned water into alcoholic wine publicly. Thus, many of them believe that public drinking could not lead a brother to potentially to stumble (When clearly such a reality could happen).

However, that said, I also believe there is a small number of responsible drinking moderationists who drink in a way to stay sober minded and who believe the proper thing to do is to preach against drunkenness strongly. These Moderationists do not want to do anything to make their brother to stumble. They drink knowing that the beverage they have in their hands is potentially dangerous but yet they drink soberly to the glory of God in private. However, in good conscience, it is my duty as a Christian to remind even these Christians that it can bite like a serpent if they start to forget the dangers of this deadly drug. In fact, it is my encouragement that they walk the higher road and show that they are different from the rest of the world. Again, not out of legalism, but out of love.

My viewpoint:

Oh, and so that there is no more confusion, I want to let people know that I am an "Abstentionist" and I believe that it is the Biblical view based on the whole of Scripture.

The Old Testament saints (Not the New Testament saints) were forbidden to even look at a strong alcoholic beverage let alone drink it. There were many warnings against drinking strong alcoholic Studies have shown light consumption of alcohol is linked to living longer. There have been numerous studies showing this through the years.
Drinking alcohol was linked to longevity in a new study

During the Roman era there was no way to store grape juice without it being spoiled by bacteria, fermenting to wine, or turning to vinegar. Fresh squeezed grape juice was available during the grape harvest. After this whatever had not been turned to wine, vinegar, or raisins would have spoiled as pasteurization was not known. Alcohol kills bacteria and that preserves the wine. Alcohol has calories in it the body may use as fuel. It also has polyphenols that are useful.

Jesus drank wine and they called him a drunkard.
Mathew 11:19 (WEB) The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

John the Baptist did not drink wine and they said he had a demon (Luke 7:33).

Excessive alcohol consumption is carcinogenic, can cause a plethora of diseases and resulted in auto accidents.

 

[Tetra]

A person will defend alcohol because that is what they want to see.

Would it be reasonable to suggest you maybe defending you're position as it's what you "want to see"?

 

[Bible Highlighter]

As a nursing student, I'm kind of confused by this reasoning as it would mean the vast majority of helpful medications wouldn't be permitted according to your perspective. The difference between a medicine and a poison is dosage. Do you also have this view regarding medication?

(side note, from a chemistry perspective, you're incorrect but I won't debate that issue here)

You usually need a prescription for strong medications; And there are warning labels even on aspirin not to exceed the dosage or there are certain side effects. People can be very dumb. It's a fact of life. They may ignore these warnings but it is not wise. People have even eat poisonous things (that is not food) like the tide pod challenge. Alcohol is sold as something you can drink. It is a mild poison. But it technically not a food because most alcoholic drinks do not have nutrition labels on them. See. I know alcholic drink is a poison. But most people do not know this. They think it is a food when it is not a food. Sure, you can drink it, but your body has to fight off it's poisonous effects. If you take alcohol and put it in a glass and then put a penny in there, it is going to clean the penny of it's dirt. The alcohol has no knowledge of being in a glass cleaning a penny vs. cleaning your insides out. It seeks to destroy and it does not seek to give you any kind of nutrition.

Yes, some alcoholic beverages do have nutrition labels on them, but these are beverages that are lower in alcoholic content. This is why the Israelite drank alcohol diluted with water. God did not want his people being drunk back then anymore than he wants them drunk today.

It's not like food. You don't get instantly fat the second you over eat. But you do get drunk if you overdrink. God wants us to be sober minded in the New Testament.

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Would it be reasonable to suggest you maybe defending you're position as it's what you "want to see"?

Not at all. I once considered that the alcoholic position was true. But then the deeper I studied Scripture and history on this topic, the more I learned that this was not the case. I believe people defend the alcoholic view because that is what they want to see.

For just look at Dictionary.com's third definition. The word wine can mean fermented or unfermented. Also, try Googling ancient methods of preserving grape juice. Such a thing existed back then.

 

[Tetra]

You usually need a prescription for strong medications; And there are warning labels even on aspirin not to exceed the dosage or there are certain side effects. People can be very dumb. It's a fact of life. They may ignore these warnings but it is not wise. People have even eat poisonous things (that is not food) like the tide pod challenge. Alcohol is sold as something you can drink. It is a mild poison. But it technically not a food because most alcoholic drinks do not have nutrition labels on them. See. I know alcholic drink is a poison. But most people do not know this. They think it is a food when it is not a food. Sure, you can drink it, but your body has to fight off it's poisonous effects. If you take alcohol and put it in a glass and then put a penny in there, it is going to clean the penny of it's dirt. The alcohol has no knowledge of being in a glass cleaning a penny vs. cleaning your insides out. It seeks to destroy and it does not seek to give you any kind of nutrition.

Yes, some alcoholic beverages do have nutrition labels on them, but these are beverages that are lower in alcoholic content. This is why the Israelite drank alcohol diluted with water. God did not want his people being drunk back then anymore than he wants them drunk today.

It's not like food. You don't get instantly fat the second you over eat. But you do get drunk if you overdrink. God wants us to be sober minded in the New Testament.

My point was just that if you want to hold the view that one shouldn't drink alcohol because it could potentially cause alcohol poisoning, it could be argued that you couldn't even drink water, since 6L < 3hrs will also poison you... to the point of death. You're argument about the nature of alcohol is invalid. However, I would like to read the verses you presented... I think that may present a stronger argument.

 

[Tetra]

Not at all. I once considered that the alcoholic position was true. But then the deeper I studied Scripture and history on this topic, the more I learned that this was not the case. I believe people defend the alcoholic view because that is what they want to see.

For just look at Dictionary.com's third definition. The word wine can mean fermented or unfermented. Also, try Googling ancient methods of preserving grape juice. Such a thing existed back then.

So you're essentially saying, others haven't researched this topic to the degree you have, so they see what they want to see, and your view on alcohol is infallible?