The Scriptural documentation of the Pre-trib Rapture of the Church and its timing

Mr Darcy · Apr 5, 2018

Quasar92 said:
The teaching of Paul about the coming pre-trib rapture of the Church is abundantly clear and does not require any sideline critique attempting to alter what his intended meaning of the passage is. Review 2 Thess.2:2.

Quasar92

I don't mean to butt in, but I just have to ask a question: What does 2 Thess 2:2 have to do with this? Is someone here saying the day of the Lord has already come?

BABerean2 · Apr 5, 2018

Quasar92 said:
<SNIP> The above was thoroughly refuted in post #17. Don't bother me with your deceptive false teachings again.

Quasar92

Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
( NKJV)
(Old Testament text Uppercase)

If you think Zechariah 12:10 was not fulfilled at Calvary, then either the Apostle John is wrong in verse 37 above, or you are wrong.

You can attempt to avoid the reality of God's Word.
However, once again it reveals the error of your modern Two Peoples of God doctrine.

.

Mr Darcy · Apr 5, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Joh 19:34 But one of the soldiers pierced His side with a spear, and immediately blood and water came out.
Joh 19:36 For these things were done that the Scripture should be fulfilled, "NOT ONE OF HIS BONES SHALL BE BROKEN."
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
( NKJV)
(Old Testament text Uppercase)

If you think Zechariah 12:10 was not fulfilled at Calvary, then either the Apostle John is wrong in verse 37 above, or you are wrong.

You can attempt to avoid the reality of God's Word.
However, once again it reveals the error of your modern Two Peoples of God doctrine.

.

I've not been particularly focused on the verse above before, but as I read it I almost hit the agree button on your post, but then I got to thinking, could it be talking about the day Israel's eyes are opened and they understand who Christ was and what they did?

Just thinking out loud.

Douggg · Apr 5, 2018

Quasar92 said:
The twenty four Elders around the throne of God, represent the twenty four courses of the Levitical priesthood, with one priest for each course seated on each of the twenty four thrones.

Not hardly.

In Jeremiah 33, below, the Branch of righteousness is the Lord Himself, who entered this world as Jesus.

When the Jews eventually accept Jesus, who is not just a man, they will not want a "man" as the King of Israel any more. Nor the Levites want a "man" as the high priest to do the former sacrifices - as Jesus is the High Priest and Him, the perfect sacrifice.

Back when the Jews demanded a man-king, they were rejecting God as their King. This is also in 1Samuel12:12. When Jesus returns, He the Lord God Almighty will sit upon the throne of Israel, which is rightfully His. And they will not want a man to sit on that throne ever again.

Jeremiah 33:
14. Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will perform that good thing which I have promised unto the house of Israel and to the house of Judah.

15 In those days, and at that time, will I cause the Branch of righteousness to grow up unto David; and he shall execute judgment and righteousness in the land.

16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, The LORD our righteousness.

17 For thus saith the LORD; David shall never want a man to sit upon the throne of the house of Israel;

18 Neither shall the priests the Levites want a man before me to offer burnt offerings, and to kindle meat offerings, and to do sacrifice continually.

BABerean2 · Apr 5, 2018

Mr Darcy said:
I've not been particularly focused on the verse above before, but as I read it I almost hit the agree button on your post, but then I got to thinking, could it be talking about the day Israel's eyes are opened and they understand who Christ was and what they did?

Just thinking out loud.

Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
( NKJV)

The uppercase in the NKJV is a direct quote from the Old Testament.
That makes it pretty hard to deny.

The rest of the fulfillment is found a few weeks later on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out and those that had seen Him pierced "mourned", by being "cut to the heart".

Act 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 'AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAYS GOD, THAT I WILL POUR OUT OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH; YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS.
Act 2:18 AND ON MY MENSERVANTS AND ON MY MAIDSERVANTS I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT IN THOSE DAYS; AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY.
Act 2:19 I WILL SHOW WONDERS IN HEAVEN ABOVE AND SIGNS IN THE EARTH BENEATH: BLOOD AND FIRE AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
Act 2:20 THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD.
Act 2:21 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS THAT WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.'
Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
Act 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Act 2:25 For David says concerning Him: 'I FORESAW THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE MY FACE, FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, THAT I MAY NOT BE SHAKEN.
Act 2:26 THEREFORE MY HEART REJOICED, AND MY TONGUE WAS GLAD; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL REST IN HOPE.
Act 2:27 FOR YOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HADES, NOR WILL YOU ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION.
Act 2:28 YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF JOY IN YOUR PRESENCE.'
Act 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
Act 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
Act 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Act 2:35 TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL." '
Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

.

Mr Darcy · Apr 5, 2018

BABerean2 said:
Joh 19:37 And again another Scripture says, "THEY SHALL LOOK ON HIM WHOM THEY PIERCED."
( NKJV)

The uppercase in the NKJV is a direct quote from the Old Testament.
That makes it pretty hard to deny.

The rest of the fulfillment is found a few weeks later on the day of Pentecost when the Spirit was poured out and those that had seen Him pierced "mourned", by being "cut to the heart".

Act 2:16 But this is what was spoken by the prophet Joel:
Act 2:17 'AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS IN THE LAST DAYS, SAYS GOD, THAT I WILL POUR OUT OF MY SPIRIT ON ALL FLESH; YOUR SONS AND YOUR DAUGHTERS SHALL PROPHESY, YOUR YOUNG MEN SHALL SEE VISIONS, YOUR OLD MEN SHALL DREAM DREAMS.
Act 2:18 AND ON MY MENSERVANTS AND ON MY MAIDSERVANTS I WILL POUR OUT MY SPIRIT IN THOSE DAYS; AND THEY SHALL PROPHESY.
Act 2:19 I WILL SHOW WONDERS IN HEAVEN ABOVE AND SIGNS IN THE EARTH BENEATH: BLOOD AND FIRE AND VAPOR OF SMOKE.
Act 2:20 THE SUN SHALL BE TURNED INTO DARKNESS, AND THE MOON INTO BLOOD, BEFORE THE COMING OF THE GREAT AND AWESOME DAY OF THE LORD.
Act 2:21 AND IT SHALL COME TO PASS THAT WHOEVER CALLS ON THE NAME OF THE LORD SHALL BE SAVED.'
Act 2:22 "Men of Israel, hear these words: Jesus of Nazareth, a Man attested by God to you by miracles, wonders, and signs which God did through Him in your midst, as you yourselves also know—
Act 2:23 Him, being delivered by the determined purpose and foreknowledge of God, you have taken by lawless hands, have crucified, and put to death;
Act 2:24 whom God raised up, having loosed the pains of death, because it was not possible that He should be held by it.
Act 2:25 For David says concerning Him: 'I FORESAW THE LORD ALWAYS BEFORE MY FACE, FOR HE IS AT MY RIGHT HAND, THAT I MAY NOT BE SHAKEN.
Act 2:26 THEREFORE MY HEART REJOICED, AND MY TONGUE WAS GLAD; MOREOVER MY FLESH ALSO WILL REST IN HOPE.
Act 2:27 FOR YOU WILL NOT LEAVE MY SOUL IN HADES, NOR WILL YOU ALLOW YOUR HOLY ONE TO SEE CORRUPTION.
Act 2:28 YOU HAVE MADE KNOWN TO ME THE WAYS OF LIFE; YOU WILL MAKE ME FULL OF JOY IN YOUR PRESENCE.'
Act 2:29 "Men and brethren, let me speak freely to you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his tomb is with us to this day.
Act 2:30 Therefore, being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him that of the fruit of his body, according to the flesh, He would raise up the Christ to sit on his throne,
Act 2:31 he, foreseeing this, spoke concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that His soul was not left in Hades, nor did His flesh see corruption.
Act 2:32 This Jesus God has raised up, of which we are all witnesses.
Act 2:33 Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and having received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear.
Act 2:34 "For David did not ascend into the heavens, but he says himself: 'THE LORD SAID TO MY LORD, "SIT AT MY RIGHT HAND,
Act 2:35 TILL I MAKE YOUR ENEMIES YOUR FOOTSTOOL." '
Act 2:36 "Therefore let all the house of Israel know assuredly that God has made this Jesus, whom you crucified, both Lord and Christ."
Act 2:37 Now when they heard this, they were cut to the heart, and said to Peter and the rest of the apostles, "Men and brethren, what shall we do?"
Act 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit.
Act 2:39 For the promise is to you and to your children, and to all who are afar off, as many as the Lord our God will call."
Act 2:40 And with many other words he testified and exhorted them, saying, "Be saved from this perverse generation."
Act 2:41 Then those who gladly received his word were baptized; and that day about three thousand souls were added to them.

.

Thank you. That clarifies greatly!

ChristIsSovereign · Apr 5, 2018

I find Quasar92 to be judgmental and not show a spirit of grace/love at all, making me question his views altogether. Don't you agree?

ChristIsSovereign · Apr 5, 2018

ChristIsSovereign said:
I find Quasar92 to be judgmental and not show a spirit of grace/love at all, making me question his views altogether. Don't you agree?

I have found out, to my dismay, that Quasar92 is an anti-Trinitarian and does not believe that Jesus is indeed God. Read: John 1:1

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven? - Page 19 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/is-the-trinity-biblical-t5630066.html#.V9lzKYYrI2w

It is maddening and sad that someone, who proudly flaunts his heretical teachings, would dare to condemn someone else of the same thing. Read: 2 John 1:10

He has stirred up division within this forum and I would advise, in good Christian love, to stop associating with the man who promotes this heresy. Read: Titus 3:10

Also read: 2 Peter 2:1-22

(Comment edited. I was angry and came across wrongly. My apologies.)

jgr · Apr 5, 2018

ChristIsSovereign said:
I have found out, to my dismay, that Quasar92 is an anti-Trinitarian and does not believe that Jesus is indeed God.

He is a faithful disciple of dispensational modernism.

But the above claim would require credible convincing evidence.

ChristIsSovereign · Apr 5, 2018

jgr said:
He is a faithful disciple of dispensational modernism.

But the above claim would require credible convincing evidence.

Which is provided in my subsequent comment.

Mr Darcy · Apr 5, 2018

ChristIsSovereign said:
I find Quasar92 to be judgmental and not show a spirit of grace/love at all, making me question his views altogether. Don't you agree?

I'm still trying to get a feel for this place.

One thing I will say, and this is just generic: When I see posts with lots of C&P, I don't read them. When I lurked I noticed that some posters will post LOTS of scripture following a very short comment. Not only is that not the least bit persuasive, but often the scripture does not have a clear connection to the poster's comment or point. And if it's more than a few verses, I tend to just gloss over it all anyway.

I haven't got time to read posts that are a bible study unto themselves.

Douggg · Apr 5, 2018

Mr Darcy said:
When I first became a Christian, I was Pre-trib, because my new church was pre-trib. (AG)

Then I studied it and had many conversations with strong supporters of pre-trib. I became "mid-trib" (also called post-trib, pre-wrath). I believe those saved from the great tribulation make their first appearance in Revelation 7, shortly after the 144k are sealed. What is interesting is that the 144k are precisely numbered, while those saved out of the tribulation are a vast number. I'm thinking hundreds of millions or even a billion or three.

But when it comes to discussing this stuff, I know none of us has full understanding. Not even me.

The issue for me regarding all of the "trib" doctrines is that each say the rapture must happen within their constraints. So I came up with my own view of the "anytime" rapture, which the rapture can happen anytime between now and when it actually takes place.

The rapture could happen pre-trib (a misnomer for pre-70th week) or a may not. In the anytime rapture view, the idea is to be watching and hopeful.

mid-trib view is not another name for being the post-trib view. The pos-trib view is that the rapture takes place right at as Jesus is on His way back down to planet earth. Pre-wrath is that the rapture happens right before God begins his bowls of wrath upon the earth.

I have not heard of anything called pre-Day of the Lord rapture. But if there were, imo, it would be the most accurate imo given what Paul wrote in 1Thessalonians5 and 2Thessalonians2. Paul appears to be saying in 1Thessaloians5, that the world would be saying peace and safety, at ease. But Christians would be aware of those times - and would not get caught, when the peace safety turns into sudden destruction. And the wrath that ensues during that time.

Verses 9-11 in 1Thessalonians5 is the resurrection/rapture, Paul previously spoke of in 1Thesslaonians4:13-18.

9 For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ,

10 Who died for us, that, whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with him.

11 Wherefore comfort yourselves together, and edify one another, even as also ye do.

_____________________________________________________________

I agree with you that them in Revelation 7 are them martyred during the great tribulation.
______________________________________________________________

btw, welcome to the Forum.

seventysevens · Apr 5, 2018

jgr said:
The antecedent of every "he" in Daniel 9:27 is Messiah the Prince in Daniel 9:25.

It is NOT the true Messiah Jesus !!
It is the False messiah that God sends as the great delusion so that people who rejected Jesus - shall follow and believe the false messiah to their doom - looks like you will be following the false messiah since that is what you beehive

jgr · Apr 5, 2018

seventysevens said:
It is NOT the true Messiah Jesus !!
It is the False messiah that God sends as the great delusion so that people who rejected Jesus - shall follow and believe the false messiah to their doom - looks like you will be following the false messiah since that is what you beehive

By what grammatical convulsions can Messiah the Prince suddenly be transformed into a false messiah?

Show those verses to any English teacher on the planet, and he/she will tell you that the antecedent of the "he's" is Messiah the Prince.

FutureAndAHope · Apr 5, 2018

I don't believe in a Pre-Tribulation rapture. Christians will be persecuted in the last day.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

ChristIsSovereign · Apr 5, 2018

FutureAndAHope said:
I don't believe in a Pre-Tribulation rapture. Christians will be persecuted in the last day.

Luke 21:12 But before all these, they shall lay their hands on you, and persecute you, delivering you up to the synagogues, and into prisons, being brought before kings and rulers for my name's sake.

Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

Revelation 12:17 And the dragon was wroth with the woman, and went to make war with the remnant of her seed, which keep the commandments of God, and have the testimony of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 13:7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

I believe in between a mid and post-trib rapture, personally.

Mr Darcy · Apr 5, 2018

Douggg said:
mid-trib view is not another name for being the post-trib view.

Yeah, I get really nervous when someone speaks of this stuff using phrases like, "this is what will happen" or "this is when this will happen". None of us are sure. What I like to say is that "So far, I believe that this is what will happen, but I may be wrong."

And I used to just say I believe it is mid-trib, but in reality I see my position as separating the seven years as 3.5 years of tribulation against the Church followed by 3.5 years of the wrath of God regarding any and all people left on the planet. Hence, post trib, pre wrath.

Quasar92 · Apr 5, 2018

Mr Darcy said:
I don't mean to butt in, but I just have to ask a question: What does 2 Thess 2:2 have to do with this? Is someone here saying the day of the Lord has already come?

Take note of what Paul said, assuring the Thessalonians, the Day of the Lord had not come - the tribulation. If it had, which they feared, it would mean they had missed the pre-trib rapture of the Church, he had taught them in 1 Thess.4:16-17, they would participate in. Which verse one [2 Thess.2:1] specifically refers to.

Quasar92

Quasar92 · Apr 5, 2018

ChristIsSovereign said:
I have found out, to my dismay, that Quasar92 is an anti-Trinitarian and does not believe that Jesus is indeed God. Read: John 1:1

Can the Trinity be Biblically proven? - Page 19 - Christian Chat Rooms & Forums

https://www.tapatalk.com/groups/deeperwalk/is-the-trinity-biblical-t5630066.html#.V9lzKYYrI2w

It is maddening and sad that someone, who proudly flaunts his heretical teachings, would dare to condemn someone else of the same thing. Read: 2 John 1:10

He has stirred up division within this forum and I would advise, in good Christian love, to stop associating with the man who promotes this heresy. Read: Titus 3:10

Also read: 2 Peter 2:1-22

(Comment edited. I was angry and came across wrongly. My apologies.)

With the above false claims you have accused me of, you are a flat out liar! Show me anywhere I have ever made amy claim that Jesus is not the Son of God, whom the Father calls God, or Lord, as recorded in Ps.45:6-7 110:1 and Heb.1:8-9 {I will confirm these Scriptures when I have finished writing this, because I am posting it from memory now].

That I am an anti Trinitarian, comes directly from the Bible, which I can easily provide. However, I have chosen NOT to discuss it here on this site, in order to avoid needless conflict or posting something the management team forbids.

No one here has my permission to post or to gossip about what I have posted on my own site, where this has come from. Anyone who wants to discuss the issue with me is invited to come to my site where I will be happy to take you on.

Quasar92

ChristIsSovereign · Apr 5, 2018

Quasar92 said:
With the above false claims you have accused me of, you are a flat out liar! Show me anywhere I have ever made amy claim that Jesus is not the Son of God, whom the Father calls God, or Lord, as recorded in Ps.46:6-7 100:1 and Heb.1:8-9 {I will confirm these Scriptures when I have finished writing this, because I am posting it from memory now].

That I am an anti Trinitarian, comes directly from the Bible, which I can easily provide. However, I have chosen NOT to discuss it here on this site, in order to avoid needless conflict or posting something the management team forbids.

No one here has my permission to post or to gossip about what I have posted on my own site, where this has come from. Anyone who wants to discuss the issue with me is invited to come to my site where I will be happy to take you on.

Quasar92

Do you pray in the name of the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit?

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