The Gog n Magog war will happen before the Tribulation

shilohsfoal said:

As I said in my previous post.There is not a war.God providing food for the birds is not a war.

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You have NO IDEA what I am talking about. You do not understand that it is NOT physical war, but spiritual. The battle of Gog and Magog is not about guns and missiles, but the WORD of Satan coming out of the mouths of His false prophets and christs that these nations are type of! Do you honestly believe that God will provide all dead bodies for birds to eat literally? Can't you read Scripture at all?

Revelation 19:15-18
[15] And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
[16] And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
[17] And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
[18] That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Did God actually talk about literal birds that fly in heaven to eat dead bodies of humans and horeses? Don't you have spiritual eyes to see what He actually talks about? Who does the fowls in the heaven signifies? what does eating the flesh signifies? Why is it considered as marriage supper? Who is actually eating at the supper?

Douggg said:

There is only one way to be saved - and that is by the Lord Jesus Christ. The promised kingdom is the Kingdom of God - which is way greater than Israel and the other nations. So why get hung up on trying to be Israel - in the Church has become Israel doctrine? And Christians have become Jews?

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Not I, but God said, Church has become Israel (or become a commonwealth of Israel) by being ingrafted into Covenant Israel. Not National Israel. That is why you misunderstood what God talks about. Paul refuted you.

Ephesians 2:11-14
[11] Wherefore remember, that ye being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called Uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands;
[12] That at that time ye were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world:
[13] But now in Christ Jesus ye who sometimes were far off are made nigh by the blood of Christ.
[14] For he is our peace, who hath made both one, and hath broken down the middle wall of partition between us;

And Paul wrote:

Romans 11:13-17
[13] For I speak to you Gentiles, inasmuch as I am the apostle of the Gentiles, I magnify mine office:
[14] If by any means I may provoke to emulation them which are my flesh, and might save some of them.
[15] For if the casting away of them be the reconciling of the world, what shall the receiving of them be, but life from the dead?
[16] For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
[17] And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;

Romans 11:24-27
[24] For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?
[25] For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
[26] And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
[27] For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.

God did not say "And then" all Isarel shall be saved as if there is a national redemption plan. Rather it is a Covenant Israel which the Church has graffed into! Once the fulness of the Gentiles be come in, the Covenant Israel shall be all sealed. Finished! Nothing is said about National Israel!

TribulationSigns said:

Do you honestly believe that God will provide all dead bodies for birds to eat literally?

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Do you believe that birds DON'T eat carrion?

TribulationSigns said:

Did God actually talk about literal birds that fly in heaven to eat dead bodies of humans and horeses?

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I'm thinking that perhaps you're an amillennialist, yes?

My understanding is that the events from Revelation 19 that you quote take place on earth as Jesus makes His triumphant return to take His throne in Jerusalem, there to reign on Earth for 1000 years. On the way He wipes out the army that was on the way to Israel to wipe out the remnant of Jews who had come to faith during the Great Tribulation.

Now here is where you tell me that I'm WRONG.

And then NOW is where I say that there are many popular views on Eschatology, and Eschatology is a MINOR doctrinal issue, and Christians who love one another can tolerate differences in minor doctrinal issues, and mature Christians who are also mature ADULTS can discuss minor differences without taking things personally or name calling.

Douggg said:

I think it would be more appropriate to say chosen nation of the nations, by which the world would know God by seeing God act - blessings, curses, promises to Israel.

Differently - regarding individual persons - many are called, few are chosen. That refers to them who embrace Jesus.

There is only one way to be saved - and that is by the Lord Jesus Christ. The promised kingdom is the Kingdom of God - which is way greater than Israel and the other nations. So why get hung up on trying to be Israel - in the Church has become Israel doctrine? And Christians have become Jews?

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Who is trying to be Israel?

phydaux said:

Replacement Theology. A popular view, but one I don't adhere to.

Romans 11:25

For I do not desire, brethren, that you should be ignorant of this mystery, lest you should be wise in your own opinion, that blindness in part has happened to Israel until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Romans 11:29

For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.


Again, posters in this sub-forum should have logos like NASCAR drivers.

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For nearly 2000 years there was no natikns state of Israel. Now all the sudden people tthink they need to bless that country .
That country and its peoplecouldbe wiped off the face ofthe earth and anyone elsewho believes in Christ would still be blessed.

shilohsfoal said:

For nearly 2000 years there was no natikns state of Israel. Now all the sudden people tthink they need to bless that country .
That country and its peoplecouldbe wiped off the face ofthe earth and anyone elsewho believes in Christ would still be blessed.

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Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Which side of this battle do you plan on being on? I have news for you, if you side with the nations that come against Jerusalem, you are on the losing side. Verse 3 clearly proves that fact.

phydaux said:

Do you believe that birds DON'T eat carrion?

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Listen to me, according to the context of REVELATION 19:15-18, Do you believe God was talking about literal birds feeding on dead bodies or are you spiritually blind to what He actually talked about. No wondering you have a carnal mind.

1 Corinthians 2:13-14
[13] Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.
[14] But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

The entire book of Revelation is a collage of cryptic numbers, figures, imagery, enigmatic representations, symbolism, analogies and metaphors. It requires spiritually discerned in order to understand what God talked about.

phydaux said:

My understanding is that the events from Revelation 19 that you quote take place on earth as Jesus makes His triumphant return to take His throne in Jerusalem, there to reign on Earth for 1000 years. On the way He wipes out the army that was on the way to Israel to wipe out the remnant of Jews who had come to faith during the Great Tribulation.

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Nope. Revelation 19 is talking about Second Coming. There won't be 1,000 literal years of God's kingdom on earth after that. It already took place at the Cross and the number 10 (and its mulipties, 100 1,000, etc.) years represent the fullness of time of whatever is in view. And the battle of Gog and Magog and Armageddon are one and the same battle that takes place prior to Second Coming but it is not a physical war with guns and missiles you are looking for. It is already taking place IF you have spirit of Christ to see, spiritually, what is really going on WITHIN God's congregation where the judgment must take place first! That is why many of you professed Christians are as blind as Jews of Old looking for physical armies, physical nations, and physical kingdom. You totally missed it.

Now here is where you tell me that I'm WRONG.

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I already have but you won't receive it. I quote you tons of verses which you rare refute with nothing but private interpretation.

And then NOW is where I say that there are many popular views on Eschatology, and Eschatology is a MINOR doctrinal issue, and Christians who love one another can tolerate differences in minor doctrinal issues, and mature Christians who are also mature ADULTS can discuss minor differences without taking things personally or name calling.

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Aww, poor baby, are you offended by my testimony?

Gal 4:16

• Am I therefore become your enemy, because I tell you the truth?

DavidPT said:

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Which side of this battle do you plan on being on? I have news for you, if you side with the nations that come against Jerusalem, you are on the losing side. Verse 3 clearly proves that fact.

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[Chuckle] You and all of the Zionist Dispensationalists with literal interpretations are deceived to believe that Zechariah 14 is about the Second Coming, modern National Israel and physical God's Kingdom on earth. Really? But what can I say if you do not have spiritual understanding to begin with? Go search for my post on Zechariah 14 if you want to know. Not going to discuss this here when you want to hijack this thread which is about Gog and Magog.

TribulationSigns said:

Listen to me, according to the context of REVELATION 19:15-18, Do you believe God was talking about literal birds feeding on dead bodies or are you spiritually blind to what He actually talked about. No wondering you have a carnal mind.

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Why do you choose to be condescending to those who are not seeing things your way? Can't you make your points without having to be condescending towards others in the process?


If God says in Ezekiel 39 that he is going to give these men of war to ravenous birds of every sort, and to the beasts of the field to be devoured, then I for one believe He will do just that, otherwise, IMO, that seems to indicate He is a liar for claiming He will do that which He really won't do. Keep in mind, in Ezekiel 39:4 God is the speaker in that verse.

1 Samuel 17:44 And the Philistine said to David, Come to me, and I will give thy flesh unto the fowls of the air, and to the beasts of the field.
45 Then said David to the Philistine, Thou comest to me with a sword, and with a spear, and with a shield: but I come to thee in the name of the LORD of hosts, the God of the armies of Israel, whom thou hast defied.
46 This day will the LORD deliver thee into mine hand; and I will smite thee, and take thine head from thee; and I will give the carcases of the host of the Philistines this day unto the fowls of the air, and to the wild beasts of the earth; that all the earth may know that there is a God in Israel.
47 And all this assembly shall know that the LORD saveth not with sword and spear: for the battle is the LORD'S, and he will give you into our hands.


The same way the above unrelated passage was meaning literally, so was God meaning literally in Ezekiel 39. Unless you want to claim that the fowls of the air, and the beasts of the field, in 1 Samuel 17 are not meaning in the literal sense, as in birds and animals that feast on dead human flesh, then you shouldn't want to claim that in Ezekiel 39 either. And since Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 19 connects with one another, if the feasting birds are meaning literal in Ezekiel 39, the same should be true in Revelation 19.

seventysevens said:

These verses ARE about the Nation of Israel


Number 24:9 "He couched, he lay down as a lion, and as a great lion: who shall stir him up? Blessed [is] he that blesseth thee, and cursed [is] he that curseth thee."

“Blessed is he that blesseth thee”: These words refer to (Gen. 12:3). The ultimate fulfillment of the Abrahamic Covenant centers around the coming Messiah. It is the one who blesses Israel who will ultimately reap God’s blessing in the future.

Gen 12:2-3 "And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:" "And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed."

This is a renewing of that very same blessing. He is at rest, and lies down a strong nation; strong as the lion. Jesus said the same thing in the following verse.


Gen 12
The Lord had said to Abram, “Go from your country, your people and your father’s household to the land I will show you.

2 “I will make you into a great nation,
and I will bless you;
I will make your name great,
and you will be a blessing.
3 I will bless those who bless you,
and whoever curses you I will curse;
and all peoples on earth
will be blessed through you.

These verses ARE about the Nation of Israel

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Then maybe the better question is what is a blessing ? Blessed are the meek , Blessed are the poor in spirit ( humble ) , blessed are those who hunger and thirst after righteousness . For me anyway , to deny the truth is to deny Jesus , for He has said , I am the Way , the Life and the Truth . Truthfully ...are we encouraging Israel towards meekness , towards humility , encouraging them to hunger ansd thirst after righteousness ? How could the US as a nation do this ? We can not for as a nation , we do not have these for ourselves ...or we may hold to a theology and deny the truth but the truth is what it is and cares not what we think or proclaim . Many in this country believe in God and so does satan ..Believing in God is not salvation . Believing God is . Many have forgotten that God is not a respecter of persons and His grace does not change who He is . It was given to change who we are .. Our support of a secular Israel is in no wise scriptural for in Christ there is neither Jew nor Greek . I DO hope for those of Jewish decent ( and arabs and muslims and buddist )and all others to repent but I do not see where they will learn repentance form american believers for we chase the temporal riches of this world just like every one else . Is America we well known for our deep humility ? ..but God gives grace to the humble or He does not . And we are saved by grace through faith which works by love ..Not theology .
For this cause God shall send them a strong delusion that they might believe a lie , for they received not a love for the truth ...truthfully as any historian will acknowledge , the state of israel was facilitated by many biological jews who were atheist .. secular Jews. The old testament nation was replaced by a new covenant Kingdom and we do not get to vote in a kingdom ...we have the pleasure to submit to mercy , grace and truth . Where there is no vision , the people perish. We have been deceived by pouring new wine into old wineskins . And we get to keep an eye for an eye and get to hate our enemies . How is this any different than what the muslims teach ?

shilohsfoal said:

For nearly 2000 years there was no natikns state of Israel.

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But don't you see that the miraculous reemergence of the nation Israel is a huge argument AGAINST Replacement Theology?

When there was no nation of Israel then there was some possibility that the specific, unconditional promises God made to the patriarchs regarding the nation might have been passed to the Church. But now that the chosen people are back in the land and the nation has reemerged there is, in my mind, no longer any question that God is once again ready to deal with the world through the nation Israel.

TribulationSigns said:

The entire book of Revelation is a collage of cryptic numbers, figures, imagery, enigmatic representations, symbolism, analogies and metaphors. It requires spiritually discerned in order to understand what God talked about.

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I glad you and I agree about something. The book of Revelation is actually quite easy to understand. It is filled with, for lack of a better term, "images." All of them are taken from the Old Testament. This actually makes the book quite easy to understand. You simple find the image in Revelation, search the Old Testament, and that explains that image's use in Revelation. People who struggle with understanding Revelation simply haven't done their homework in the Old Testament.

It warms my heart that we can finally discuss things calmly, like mature Christians and mature adults.

TribulationSigns said:

Not I, but God said, Church has become Israel (or become a commonwealth of Israel) by being ingrafted into Covenant Israel. Not National Israel. That is why you misunderstood what God talks about. Paul refuted you.

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Paul does not refute me. Paul did not write what you stated "ingrafted into Covenant Israel". You are misunderstanding what Paul wrote. Jew and Gentile are made one in Christ, a new creation, in the Kingdom of God.

Israel is a nation among the many nations on the earth. The church is not Israel. Differently, the church is made up of persons from all nations, peoples, tongues, kindreds. Isaiah 9:6-7 - unto us a child is born - the us is Israel.

Isaiah 9:
6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace.

7 Of the increase of his government and peace there shall be no end, upon the throne of David, and upon his kingdom, to order it, and to establish it with judgment and with justice from henceforth even for ever. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will perform this.

DavidPT said:

Zechariah 14:2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.
3 Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

Which side of this battle do you plan on being on? I have news for you, if you side with the nations that come against Jerusalem, you are on the losing side. Verse 3 clearly proves that fact.

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Im not a Muslim david.Im not of those nations that will be raping the Israeli women.
But Im also not of that nation that is being raped.

Tell me this David.Why does God give the Israeli women over to the muslim men to be raped?
Why does God give the Israeli men and children into the hands of those nations to be killed?
Why is only a remnant of Israelis saved?And of those few that are saved,why are they blessed and the others not?

phydaux said:

But don't you see that the miraculous reemergence of the nation Israel is a huge argument AGAINST Replacement Theology?

When there was no nation of Israel then there was some possibility that the specific, unconditional promises God made to the patriarchs regarding the nation might have been passed to the Church. But now that the chosen people are back in the land and the nation has reemerged there is, in my mind, no longer any question that God is once again ready to deal with the world through the nation Israel.

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The miraculous reemergence .
yes,Israel once was,and was not,and yet is.

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

shilohsfoal said:

Im not a Muslim david.Im not of those nations that will be raping the Israeli women.
But Im also not of that nation that is being raped.

Tell me this David.Why does God give the Israeli women over to themyslim men to be raped?
Why does God give the Israeli men and children into the hands of those nations to be killed?
Why is only a remnant of Israelis saved?And of those few that are saved,why are they blessed and the others not?

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I don't have all of the answers to as to why, but if Zechariah 14:2 is meaning modern Jerusalem, what is one to make of that? If one pits themselves against Jerusalem, like claiming the regathering back into the land in the last century was not an act of God, thus none of these are God's people, the fact they are currently unbelievers, what's going to happen if it turns out they were wrong about that, and when the time comes, God then goes forth, and fights against those nations? God is a discerner of the heart as well. One doesn't have to be physically present surrounding Jerusalem in order to be coming against it.

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


Notice what the text says----my people of Israel

In this context this is clearly meaning the following.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Doesn't sound like it's meaning the NT church. And if this prophecy has to with the end of this age, who could it possibly fit other than unbelieving Jews? Have there been any unbelieving Jews gathered back into their land since the last century? Shouldn't one be putting 2 and 2 together then, and seeing that it adds up to that God is most definitely behind the regathering back into their land than began in the last century? And that the worst and the best is yet to come, meaning the worst occurs first in order for the best to occur afterwards, the best being verse 29 above, for one, the worst being Zechariah 14:2, for one as well.

shilohsfoal said:

The miraculous reemergence .
yes,Israel once was,and was not,and yet is.

Revelation 17:8 The beast, which you saw, once was, now is not, and yet will come up out of the Abyss and go to its destruction. The inhabitants of the earth whose names have not been written in the book of life from the creation of the world will be astonished when they see the beast, because it once was, now is not, and yet will come.

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When John saw that vision though, Israel was, as in present at the time. The text indicates the 'now is not' applied when John saw the vision, therefore, I don't see how Israel could fit this.

DavidPT said:

I don't have all of the answers to as to why, but if Zechariah 14:2 is meaning modern Jerusalem, what is one to make of that? If one pits themselves against Jerusalem, like claiming the regathering back into the land in the last century was not an act of God, thus none of these are God's people, the fact they are currently unbelievers, what's going to happen if it turns out they were wrong about that, and when the time comes, God then goes forth, and fights against those nations? God is a discerner of the heart as well. One doesn't have to be physically present surrounding Jerusalem in order to be coming against it.

Ezekiel 38:16 And thou shalt come up against my people of Israel, as a cloud to cover the land; it shall be in the latter days, and I will bring thee against my land, that the heathen may know me, when I shall be sanctified in thee, O Gog, before their eyes.


Notice what the text says----my people of Israel

In this context this is clearly meaning the following.

Ezekiel 39:22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the LORD their God from that day and forward.
23 And the heathen shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity: because they trespassed against me, therefore hid I my face from them, and gave them into the hand of their enemies: so fell they all by the sword.
24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions have I done unto them, and hid my face from them.
25 Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Now will I bring again the captivity of Jacob, and have mercy upon the whole house of Israel, and will be jealous for my holy name;
26 After that they have borne their shame, and all their trespasses whereby they have trespassed against me, when they dwelt safely in their land, and none made them afraid.
27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.
29 Neither will I hide my face any more from them: for I have poured out my spirit upon the house of Israel, saith the Lord GOD.

Doesn't sound like it's meaning the NT church. And if this prophecy has to with the end of this age, who could it possibly fit other than unbelieving Jews? Have there been any unbelieving Jews gathered back into their land since the last century? Shouldn't one be putting 2 and 2 together then, and seeing that it adds up to that God is most definitely behind the regathering back into their land than began in the last century? And that the worst and the best is yet to come, meaning the worst occurs first in order for the best to occur afterwards, the best being verse 29 above, for one, the worst being Zechariah 14:2, for one as well.

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Zechariah is about armegedon.
Ezekiel is about the invasion of Gog.
These two seperate events are divided 1000 years apart .
The first event is the war of armegedon in which the Israelis who worship the beast are destroyed.Christcomes ad rresurrects the Israelis who did not worship the beast and those Israelis reign with Christ fir 1000 years.
Then Gog invades IIsrael and Gog is destroyed.At that time,none of Israel is lost or killed.