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How do you know Canaanites and Jews/Israelites were different races?
How are you defining "race?"
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What's wrong with racism?
- Thread starter JGG
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How are you defining "race?"
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How WHAT works???
Of course I can. Being a Christian is an individual choice; not something that can be assigned to any people group. And no, not all Germans are Christians.
My mind is getting tired trying to understand how you are defining things.
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Ok. Let's continue on with looking at the various contexts pertaining to the Canaanites (and the other related peoples in and around Canaan), shall we?
EXHIBIT 2) Following what we found above in reference to Noah, Ham, and Canaan, we come to another piece in the narrative of Genesis that offers an additional allusion to the Israelites later contentions with the peoples of Canaan, and we find this piece in Genesis 15:16-21.
In verse 16, specifically, we find an allusion to the moral qualities attributed to the Amorites, and we see by implication that the Amorites will eventually reach some kind of "complete level of iniquity" some point in the far flung future (i.e. 400 years later at the time when the Israelites leave Egypt, cross the Red Sea, go through the the Desert and then go into the Promised Land).
This allusion to the future iniquity of the Amorites also leads right into the first mention we find in the long narrative of Genesis that God is going to give Abraham's descendants the land occupied by several peoples living in Canaan (verse 17-21). We have here yet another contextual implication as to the 'moral failure' of the Amorites, and by proxy, the other peoples pf Canaan who will be displaced 400 years later, as we'll see come about in the books that follow, there are moral implications left and right. So again, the people of Canaan are foreshadowed to be removed not because of simple cultural differences or because they "look different," rather it will be due to egregious moral issues.
EXHIBIT 3) A hop and a skip over to a few later chapters in Genesis 18-19, we see that Sodom and Gomorrah are destroyed by God. Like the other narratives above, this story plays into the backdrop of moral contexts of the Torah, giving us some insight into the approach in justification that God will also take with the people of Canaan, later. The interesting thing here is that the narrative seems to exude a sense of moral conscience against the terribleness of wiping people out for their sins; we see Abraham attempt to intercede for any "innocent people" that may be in Sodom and Gomorrah, and after a heartfelt plea and a moral dilemma presented by Abraham, God basically says that if He finds even 10 innocent people, He'll spare the entirety of both cities. Unfortunately, God doesn't find enough "innocent" people in these cities, and they are all destroyed --not for prejudices sake or because of any 'racial' considerations, but due to deep moral infractions.
Thus far, JGG, do you see any contextual indications that imply racism? [I don't. It all seems to be moral in nature, so far... but let's keep going. I've got more if you're up for it. Are you up for it?
]
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It's not a matter of whether they "look different". The morality and character of a person is determined by their ethnicity or race. The bible declares that with the example of the Canaanites.
This is my point exactly. I really don't think you're grasping my point.
Again, I'm that doesn't change my statement. I'm not arguing that God didn't call for their destruction because of "morality". What I am saying is this: the Bible tells us that Canaanites were necessarily immoral. The Bible is declaring the character, personality, morality is determined by their race or ethnicity. The Bible justifies racism.
Thus far, JGG, do you see any contextual indications that imply racism? [I don't. It all seems to be moral in nature, so far... but let's keep going. I've got more if you're up for it. Are you up for it?
Keep 'em coming.
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NO!!!! I definitely DO understand your point, and that is what my whole process is here: to undermine and remove this false notion that morality and character is "determined" by ethnicity or race. But, we can say that it is strongly INFLUENCED by culture in most instances. So, no, I get what you're intending here, I just think it's wrong.
Again, you're not getting it. The whole point of EXHIBIT 2 ABOVE is to show that the Amorites (and by proxy the other peoples of Canaan) were NOT by genetic or cultural necessity immoral. Rather, they BECAME that way, which is also implied by EXHIBIT 3, but in the case of the Canaanites, it took a long time to do so according to the implied context (like 400+ years of time).
...definitely.
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Sarcoline
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The Christian definition of racism.
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full" (Luke 6:32-34).
This is essentially what creates racism. People feel a loyalty to their family, nationality, or religion that they love. Therefore, they don't feel the same love towards people outside of this, and they treat them differently. This is what's wrong with racism. It is favoritism. God is no respecter of persons and we are to be Holy as He is Holy (Romans 2:11; 1 Peter 1:16).
Over the last 300 years, the world has confronted the subject of racism in a way that it has never done before. It is likely that our understanding of "racism" is the work of the Spirit removing the distinction between Jew and Greek and every other race.
The problem with the discussion of racism taking place in the world today is that it contains the belief that people are capable of overcoming something like this within their own strength. The world cannot remove racism without Christ. So the discussion is circular and often becomes heated without ever reaching a conclusion or finding a solution.
Somehow, people have still not realized why Martin Luther King was so much more effective than Malcolm X. It wasn't because King could give a better speech.
"If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even sinners do that. And if you lend to those from whom you expect repayment, what credit is that to you? Even sinners lend to sinners, expecting to be repaid in full" (Luke 6:32-34).
This is essentially what creates racism. People feel a loyalty to their family, nationality, or religion that they love. Therefore, they don't feel the same love towards people outside of this, and they treat them differently. This is what's wrong with racism. It is favoritism. God is no respecter of persons and we are to be Holy as He is Holy (Romans 2:11; 1 Peter 1:16).
Over the last 300 years, the world has confronted the subject of racism in a way that it has never done before. It is likely that our understanding of "racism" is the work of the Spirit removing the distinction between Jew and Greek and every other race.
The problem with the discussion of racism taking place in the world today is that it contains the belief that people are capable of overcoming something like this within their own strength. The world cannot remove racism without Christ. So the discussion is circular and often becomes heated without ever reaching a conclusion or finding a solution.
Somehow, people have still not realized why Martin Luther King was so much more effective than Malcolm X. It wasn't because King could give a better speech.
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EXHIBIT 4) So, following up from the first three exhibits, we know that God is not fond of moral degeneracy, and we saw evidence of this in those instances above, and according to the writer(s) of Genesis, God thought the peoples of Canaan had a bad case of creeping “sin-itus.”
In this fourth exhibit, let's briefly look at the Passover Regulations presented in Exodus 12:43-51. Here we find an interesting thing that is setup by God after He is nearly done freeing the Israelites from the bondage of slavery in Egypt, and before the Law of God is given through Moses. The initial regulations pertaining to the significance of Passover for the Hebrews absolutely forbid any “outsider”--i.e. foreigner, immigrant, sojourner, Egyptian, Canaanite, what have you--from joining in and eating the Passover meal with the Hebrews. It isn't for them to do so whatsoever.
However, there is a caveat in this passage which seems to tell us that this prohibition isn't due to the fact that these “outsiders” belong to other ethnic groups, despite any obvious ethnic differences in physical characteristics which may be readily apparent: except one. And we know this because one of the additional regulations is that any outsiders who are willing to be circumcised in a religious fashion for the sake of God, like the Hebrew men, are then permitted to join in with the Passover feast. In fact, not only are they permitted to join in, but they are to be considered by the Israelites “...as a native of the land” (verse 48). [Hmmmmm.....this sounds strangely similar to some of the things Paul said about there not being any ethnic, gender, or economic differences which will count against us if we are each "in Christ."
]So, just from the inherent context of the Passover Feast regulations in Exodus, we see it's possible even for a sojourning ex-Canaanite to potentially be joined to Israel if he/she genuinely subscribes to Hebrew belief and practice. Issues of race or ethnicity are not impeding factors that will hinder an outsider's opportunity in joining in with Israel as one people before God. Again, we see the implication here dominated by a moral and spiritual theme; it is not one that infers any kind of racism on the part of God or on the part of the people of Israel.
On to EXHIBIT 5..............
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Still with us, @JGG ?
EXHIBIT 5) Continuing on from having provided evidence in the first four exhibits above that God's judgment of the Canaanites and related peoples was not born out of, or centered upon, any specific recognition as to their “race” and/or “ethnicity,” I now proceed to my next bit of biblical exposition so we can gain a better understanding of the primary reason(s) God had for displacing the Canaanites and related peoples from Canaan.
And for exposition on the next point I want to focus upon here, I'd like to first draw our attention to the following short video by Dr. Tim Mackie (..it's only 9 minutes long), wherein he lays out in concise fashion the “how” and the “why” of Israel's Conquest of the Promised Land which displaced many of the Canaanites:
In sum, we see again that the Canaanites were deemed by God to be morally culpable for the overt degeneracy that had developed wihin their ongoing culture. God had had enough it, and as Mackie suggests in his video above, we can turn to Leviticus chapter 18, read it thoroughly, and also see more than an ample list of the kinds of things the Canaanites were apparently “famous” for. We'll also see there in verses 24-30 some brief explanation as to why God judges the way He does and to whom He will apply these judgements.
Should we move onto the last exhibit, or is everyone falling asleep now?
EXHIBIT 5) Continuing on from having provided evidence in the first four exhibits above that God's judgment of the Canaanites and related peoples was not born out of, or centered upon, any specific recognition as to their “race” and/or “ethnicity,” I now proceed to my next bit of biblical exposition so we can gain a better understanding of the primary reason(s) God had for displacing the Canaanites and related peoples from Canaan.
And for exposition on the next point I want to focus upon here, I'd like to first draw our attention to the following short video by Dr. Tim Mackie (..it's only 9 minutes long), wherein he lays out in concise fashion the “how” and the “why” of Israel's Conquest of the Promised Land which displaced many of the Canaanites:
In sum, we see again that the Canaanites were deemed by God to be morally culpable for the overt degeneracy that had developed wihin their ongoing culture. God had had enough it, and as Mackie suggests in his video above, we can turn to Leviticus chapter 18, read it thoroughly, and also see more than an ample list of the kinds of things the Canaanites were apparently “famous” for. We'll also see there in verses 24-30 some brief explanation as to why God judges the way He does and to whom He will apply these judgements.
Should we move onto the last exhibit, or is everyone falling asleep now?
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Doug Melven
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I enjoy your exhibits. More please.Should we move onto the last exhibit, or is everyone falling asleep now?
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We must all work together for a common cause and for common perils under the same banner. Doesn't mean we can't keep race traditions and cultures because each race has that right but it's okay really to at least be disciplined in the wonderful book that teaches us to love and try not to be wrongful in general from the bible meaning of course. We are all children of God no matter what presets he gave each race. We must share this world. We must all work for our human common survival. Please don't have racism knocking on the gates for our human fellowship. There's a way out of this mess, trust me, it just takes continual study of God and the bible and any other texts that are unearthed about any religion to understand and get out of the racist side of life.
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EXHIBIT 4) So, following up from the first three exhibits, we know that God is not fond of moral degeneracy, and we saw evidence of this in those instances above, and according to the writer(s) of Genesis, God thought the peoples of Canaan had a bad case of creeping “sin-itus.”
In this fourth exhibit, let's briefly look at the Passover Regulations presented in Exodus 12:43-51. Here we find an interesting thing that is setup by God after He is nearly done freeing the Israelites from the bondage of slavery in Egypt, and before the Law of God is given through Moses. The initial regulations pertaining to the significance of Passover for the Hebrews absolutely forbid any “outsider”--i.e. foreigner, immigrant, sojourner, Egyptian, Canaanite, what have you--from joining in and eating the Passover meal with the Hebrews. It isn't for them to do so whatsoever.
However, there is a caveat in this passage which seems to tell us that this prohibition isn't due to the fact that these “outsiders” belong to other ethnic groups, despite any obvious ethnic differences in physical characteristics which may be readily apparent: except one. And we know this because one of the additional regulations is that any outsiders who are willing to be circumcised in a religious fashion for the sake of God, like the Hebrew men, are then permitted to join in with the Passover feast. In fact, not only are they permitted to join in, but they are to be considered by the Israelites “...as a native of the land” (verse 48). [Hmmmmm.....this sounds strangely similar to some of the things Paul said about there not being any ethnic, gender, or economic differences which will count against us if we are each "in Christ."
So, just from the inherent context of the Passover Feast regulations in Exodus, we see it's possible even for a sojourning ex-Canaanite to potentially be joined to Israel if he/she genuinely subscribes to Hebrew belief and practice. Issues of race or ethnicity are not impeding factors that will hinder an outsider's opportunity in joining in with Israel as one people before God. Again, we see the implication here dominated by a moral and spiritual theme; it is not one that infers any kind of racism on the part of God or on the part of the people of Israel.
On to EXHIBIT 5..............
Again, that's not what I'm claiming. Merely that the example of the Canaanites shows that the bible tells us that behavior, morals, character, etc, is determined by race.
Still with us, @JGG ?
EXHIBIT 5) Continuing on from having provided evidence in the first four exhibits above that God's judgment of the Canaanites and related peoples was not born out of, or centered upon, any specific recognition as to their “race” and/or “ethnicity,” I now proceed to my next bit of biblical exposition so we can gain a better understanding of the primary reason(s) God had for displacing the Canaanites and related peoples from Canaan.
And for exposition on the next point I want to focus upon here, I'd like to first draw our attention to the following short video by Dr. Tim Mackie (..it's only 9 minutes long), wherein he lays out in concise fashion the “how” and the “why” of Israel's Conquest of the Promised Land which displaced many of the Canaanites:
In sum, we see again that the Canaanites were deemed by God to be morally culpable for the overt degeneracy that had developed wihin their ongoing culture. God had had enough it, and as Mackie suggests in his video above, we can turn to Leviticus chapter 18, read it thoroughly, and also see more than an ample list of the kinds of things the Canaanites were apparently “famous” for. We'll also see there in verses 24-30 some brief explanation as to why God judges the way He does and to whom He will apply these judgements.
Should we move onto the last exhibit, or is everyone falling asleep now?
I can't watch the video because I'm posting while sitting on the bus.
But note that the Canaanites are 'famous' for their behavior, character, and ethics. As are Jews, Africans, Asians, Hispanics, etc...if racism is true.
You continue to make my point for me. Thanks!
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....usually, racism as we think of it today, and as it was falsely interpreted using the Bible with the so-called "Curse of Ham," implies a genetically determined difference. However, two things: 1) the Bible doesn't identify that this is the case; and I've been showing why this isn't the case, but everything I say seems to be simply dismissed by you. I'd like it to go on record that it seems to me that you're ignoring just about everything I've been saying. And I'll say it again: The bible does NOT impute a penalty to people based on some physical (or genetic) difference, but rather on a moral, behavioral difference.
2) Biologically and scientifically considered, the whole notion of race is seen of little to no consequence in "explaining" differences between various people groups today. So, racism is a false notion that crops out from the additional false notion that "race" even really exists in the first place, and to say that "race" as a concept is actually applicable is nearly tantamount to a form of 'racism' in and of itself.
There's only one race, and that is the 'human race.'
So, is there a need for me to even bring up my last EXHIBIT since ... you don't seem to be listening or paying attention?
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And that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying that the Bible claims that morals, character, personality, nature and behavior is determined by ethnicity. Those personality traits, which are ingrained in race, is why all Canaanites possess the traits that God hates, making them worthy of destruction.
The Bible has told us otherwise. Which are you going to believe? The Bible or science?
We seem pretty good at identifying others.
I don't know. Will it adress what I've been saying, or what you want me to be saying?
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Oh really? Let's just see how many other atheists come on board with your (bad) assumptions ...
You're not listening. You're continuing to equivocate between ethnicity and so-called 'race,' so...as far as I'm concerned, I'm done here. You can go push you're mode of 'ignoring' whatever anyone else says somewhere else.
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bhsmte
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Oh really? Let's just see how many other atheists come on board with your (bad) assumptions ...
You're not listening. You're continuing to equivocate between ethnicity and so-called 'race,' so...as far as I'm concerned, I'm done here. You can go push you're mode of 'ignoring' whatever anyone else says somewhere else.
I think the OP got out over his skis a bit on this one.
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Why would they? They don't generally put much stock in the Bible.
Maybe you could try addressing what I was actually saying rather than going off on tangents. Are you suggesting that racism is wrong, but judgment by ethnicity is fine?
Just to keep you thinking, why aren't Moabites or Ammonites ever welcome in the assembly of the Lord, even after ten generations?
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Is this the best you can come up with for supposed evidence from the Bible for your argument?
Go research the background of who the Ammonites were and who the Moabites were and what their 'original' position was before the stricture in Deuteronomy 23:3 was put in place. Also, learn how to interpret correctly. There is a reason the verse you've brought into question states, "...up to the tenth generation."
Also, realize Ruth was favored by God, and she was a Moabitess. She's even listed in the genealogy of Jesus at the beginning of Matthew's gospel, along with Rahab, who was a prostitute AND a Canaanite. (Obviously, you didn't watch the video I presented above, to which I fail to accept as an excuse...)
And yes, racism is wrong! And thank goodness God doesn't discriminate based on people's genetic stock. Sin, however, is another story!
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Doug Melven
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The whole problem with racism is it supposes that because someone is of a certain race with certain characteristics that each individual of that race is that way.
And if you meet an individual of that race that you determined had certain characteristics because of there race and you treat them based on your predetermined characteristics you could get yourself into a lot of trouble.
Never judge a book by its cover.
And if you meet an individual of that race that you determined had certain characteristics because of there race and you treat them based on your predetermined characteristics you could get yourself into a lot of trouble.
Never judge a book by its cover.
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