US border patrol routinely sabotages water left for migrants, report says

Aryeh Jay · Jan 18, 2018

Making America Great Again.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

Almost there said:
That word is implied.

And "illegal" isn't? If one needs to be said, might as well say the other.

Almost there · Jan 18, 2018

TLK Valentine said:
And "illegal" isn't? If one needs to be said, might as well say the other.

Nope. People are people. immigrants come in two flavors. It's important to clarify which you are talking about.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

SummerMadness said:
Why is there an emphasis on illegal? Is it to justify kicking over water supplies that may be useful to people affected by dehydration in the desert? As someone said, you could stake out these areas with water and detain people that may have crossed the border illegally instead of destroying water supplies that you know fully well will lead to death for lack of it.

There was a recent story about a border patrol agent that suspected a kid was smuggling drugs in a liquid container. Instead of confiscating and testing the liquid, he had him drink the liquid, which killed the kid. When your emphasis is always on the fact that the action is illegal, you seek to dehumanize people. When you're killing a kid by making him ingest drugs, that's a problem (and that's why they ended up paying that family $1 million for wrongful death). I think the saddest part in witnessing this dehumanization is this dehumanization is often carried out by self-professed Christians.

Of course -- Now, I'm all for catching people as they sneak across the border and dealing with them under the law... and last I checked, illegal immigration is not a capital offense.

We all know enough of them die on their own in the attempts to get here; as long as we're explicitly adding words which may or may not be implied, let's add one more to properly describe what these border patrol agents are doing:

Murder.

Aryeh Jay · Jan 18, 2018

And the last time I checked, both kinds need water. Illegally crossing a border should not be a death sentence.

Almost there · Jan 18, 2018

Aryeh Jay said:
And the last time I checked, both kinds need water. Illegally crossing a border should not be a death sentence.

Depends on where you cross.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

Almost there said:
Nope. People are people. immigrants come in two flavors. It's important to clarify which you are talking about.

You're certainly entitled to your worldview; as for me, it costs no extra effort to remember that these immigrants, illegal or not, are people.

And when you act in such a way knowing and intending to have people, illegal or not, die as a result, it's important to clarify what we're talking about: murder.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

Almost there said:
Depends on where you cross.

It can be a death sentence depending on where you cross -- it shouldn't be regardless.

Almost there · Jan 18, 2018

TLK Valentine said:
You're certainly entitled to your worldview; as for me, it costs no extra effort to remember that these immigrants, illegal or not, are people.

And when you act in such a way knowing and intending to have people, illegal or not, die as a result, it's important to clarify what we're talking about: murder.

Yes, they are people. We both agree. And people are responsible for their decisions - good or bad.

Almost there · Jan 18, 2018

TLK Valentine said:
It can be a death sentence depending on where you cross -- it shouldn't be regardless.

Attempted robbery should not carry a death sentence either, but sometimes the victim is armed, and justice is swift.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

Almost there said:
Yes, they are people. We both agree. And people are responsible for their decisions - good or bad.

Which means these border patrol agents are responsible for their decision to kill these illegal immigrants a slow and excruciating death by dehydration/heatstroke.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

Almost there said:
Attempted robbery should not carry a death sentence either, but sometimes the victim is armed, and justice is swift.

Well, now you're talking self-defense... which is sometimes considered justification...

Almost there · Jan 18, 2018

TLK Valentine said:
Well, now you're talking self-defense... which is sometimes considered justification...

This is self defense.

Thing is, though it is illegal, I'm a fan of the guy in New Mexico who was tired of his shop getting burglarized, so he set up a shotgun triggered by the doorknob. It worked. Dead would be burglar, but he went to prison.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

Almost there said:
This is self defense.

Thing is, though it is illegal, I'm a fan of the guy in New Mexico who was tired of his shop getting burglarized, so he set up a shotgun triggered by the doorknob. It worked. Dead would be burglar, but he went to prison.

...and then he found out that his son was the one robbing the place...

Almost there · Jan 18, 2018

TLK Valentine said:
...and then he found out that his son was the one robbing the place...

Did you ever see the movie, "Joe". Shocking ending of that type.

In this case, it was a little more than that. It didn't happen in an information vacuum.

What's interesting is that if, instead of a booby trap, he had simply sat behind the door and waited for the guy to enter and THEN blasted him, it would have been completely illegal.

Note to self: If that ever happens, disassemble the booby trap, grab the shotgun, and call the cops and let them know you just shot a guy trying to rob your shop.

Almost there · Jan 18, 2018

TLK Valentine said:
...and then he found out that his son was the one robbing the place...

You do touch on why it's illegal. It is indiscriminate. However, the same is true if the guy does it by his own hand. There have acually been cases (though very rare) where people have shot their own family members breaking into their home, or just coming home late from a party.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

Almost there said:
You do touch on why it's illegal. It is indiscriminate. However, the same is true if the guy does it by his own hand. There have acually been cases (though very rare) where people have shot their own family members breaking into their home, or just coming home late from a party.

Right -- but those are tragic accidents caused by people who believed they were in mortal peril. And those cases aren't as rare as they should be.

In any event, we're a little off the topic. My claim is that what these border patrol agents were (and still are) doing, precisely because it is as indiscriminate as the shotgun booby trap, is considered (morally, if not legally) murder.

SummerMadness · Jan 18, 2018

Interesting that there is a concerted effort to paint illegal immigration like burglary when it is more akin to speeding, but since the people seeking to demonize migrants also speed, they try to find something that makes migrants more disparate from them. This is how the process of dehumanization works.

TLK Valentine · Jan 18, 2018

Almost there said:
Note to self: If that ever happens, disassemble the booby trap, grab the shotgun, and call the cops and let them know you just shot a guy trying to rob your shop.

They'll know you're lying. And then you're in a world of trouble.

Gunshot residue - Wikipedia

Almost there · Jan 18, 2018

TLK Valentine said:
They'll know you're lying. And then you're in a world of trouble.

Gunshot residue - Wikipedia

First, I'm well aware of that, which is why I'd obviously have to fire it a second time.

But, more importantly, I'd not really do it.

I should have gone into security. I once had a guy I worked with ask me why I came up with so many different ways to rip off the company we worked for (I was 19 at the time, 1973). I never even tried to steal anything. My mind just seems to always look for security risks and "covering up tracks".

I did steal a Pioneer RT-707 once when I worked for a Hi-Fi retailer (1977). It was surprisingly easy and completely witnessed. But I took it back the next day. That was the day I took ownership of the phrase, "when you steal from others, the only person really damaged is you." I'll carry that to the grave.

US border patrol routinely sabotages water left for migrants, report says

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