Do you stand with Israel?

Rick Otto said:

Ana,... might does not make right.

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Moral "right" is a fuzzy tricky concept.

I think you really know that deep down, so I have no idea what you are getting at or avoiding.

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I think if you'd ever read any of my posts on morality, you'd understand that I don't see it the way you do.

I think mutual respect that comes in practicing the two greatest commandments would overcome any egoistic issues over control.
Don't you?

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I've got no idea what you're talking about here.

Rick Otto said:

All one has to do is pay taxes and you're a supporter (like it or not).

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Oh, I thought the OP meant support as in actually moving there and supporting them. Huh.

I stand with them and support them, yes. Absolutely.

QUOTE="Ana the Ist, post: 72207583, member: 302807"]Moral "right" is a fuzzy tricky concept.

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Not when I'm deprived of it.
I have an Afro, so fuzzy is my natural sense of order and tricks have been a life long hobby, so spectre of doubt there.

I think if you'd ever read any of my posts on morality, you'd understand that I don't see it the way you do.

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I understood that when you approved might makes right.

I've got no idea what you're talking about here.

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OK.
I was talking about resolving conflicts over ownership.

jaybird88 said:

Natives had to be re educated, we were taught to start thinking in terms of "I" and "ME" rather than "WE" and "US".

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Exactly. Divide and conquer.

Nige55 said:

I stand with them and support them, yes. Absolutely.

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How do you stand with them and support them?

TerranceL said:

Oh, I thought the OP meant support as in actually moving there and supporting them. Huh.

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"How can one be a Christian and be against Israel, on the side of the Palestinians? Or be in favor of a divided state? If they read the bible, they'd know God Himself promised that land to the Abraham and the Jews. So there should be no contesting this. Yet I know Christians who don't get this. We should be in support of Jerusalem being recognized as the capital of Israel. Yet there are Christians opposed to this---I guess for the sole reason that Trump supports it? "

I get that.

jaybird88 said:

Natives had to be re educated, we were taught to start thinking in terms of "I" and "ME" rather than "WE" and "US".

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I realize this is off topic from the OP, but I felt I had to speak up. As a direct descendant of the Cherokee and Choctaw myself, would you please explain to me what you meant by "Natives had to be re educated? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it sounds to me as if you are attempting to justify the "Kill the Indian, Save the Man" cultural genocide that took place in the American Indian Boarding Schools and in other Christian oriented environments. Surely, you are not and I'm simply misunderstanding you.

Rick Otto said:

Exactly. Divide and conquer.

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I read a lot about that strategy in the Old Testament with Israel. Divide and conquer or slaughter.

Emerald Flame said:

I realize this is off topic from the OP, but I felt I had to speak up. As a direct descendant of the Cherokee and Choctaw myself, would you please explain to me what you meant by "Natives had to be re educated? Perhaps I'm mistaken, but it sounds to me as if you are attempting to justify the "Kill the Indian, Save the Man" cultural genocide that took place in the American Indian Boarding Schools and in other Christian oriented environments. Surely, you are not and I'm simply misunderstanding you.

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i was being sarcastic, natives were peaceful and selfless people. kinda like a bad guy saying he has to re teach you to be corrupt and rotten rather than a good person that serves the greater good. make sense?

jaybird88 said:

i was being sarcastic, natives were peaceful and selfless people. kinda like a bad guy saying he has to re teach you to be corrupt and rotten rather than a good person that serves the greater good. make sense?

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I was sure I had misunderstood you in the first place. Thank you for explaining.

Lybrah said:

How can one be a Christian and be against Israel, on the side of the Palestinians?

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I don't know many Christians who are "against Israel", but I know many--myself included--who are against Israel's barbaric policies and inhumane treatment of the Palestinians.

Or be in favor of a divided state?

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A two state solution is arguably the only sensible road toward any sort of peace.

If they read the bible, they'd know God Himself promised that land to the Abraham and the Jews.

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And they would also know that the historic nation of Israel hasn't existed since the Babylonian Captivity, and that St. Paul says the fulfillment of God's covenant and promise to Abraham is Christ.

"Now the promises were made to Abraham and to his offspring. It does not say, 'And to offsprings,' referring to many, but referring to one, 'And to your offspring,' who is Christ." Galatians 3:16

The Christian teaching is that Jesus is the fulfillment of God's covenants and promises, the covenant to Abraham, to Israel, and to David all have their "yes" in Christ. The Apostle continues in Galatians,

"My point is this: the law, which came four hundred thirty years later, does not annul a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. For if the inheritance comes from the law, it no longer comes from the promise; but God granted it to Abraham through the promise.

Why then the law? It was added because of transgresions, until the offspring would come to whom the promise had been made; and it was ordained through angels by a mediator. Now a mediator involves more than one party; but God is one.

Is the law then opposed to the promises of God? Certainly n ot! For if a law had been given that could make alive, then righteousness would indeed come through the law. But the scripture has imprisoned all things under the power of sin, so that what was promised through faith in Jesus Christ might be given to those who believe.

Now before faith came, we were imprisoned and guarded under the law until faith would be revealed. Therefore the law was our disciplinarian until Christ came, so that we might be justified by faith. But now that faith has come, we are no longer subject to a disciplinarian, for in Christ Jesus you are children of God through faith. As many of you as were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. There is no longer Jew or Greek, there is no longer slave or free, there is no longer male and female; for all of you are one in Christ Jesus. And if you belong to Christ, then you are Abraham's offspring, heirs according to the promise." - Galatians 3:17-29

The fullness of God's promise to Abraham is Christ, and in Christ we--whether we are Jew or Gentile--are Abraham's offspring, and heirs of God's promise to Abraham. The long arm of God's promise is not a parcel of land, but the long-awaited Messiah, which we confess to be Jesus of Nazareth, our Lord and King who reigns as the Son of David, at the right hand of the Father until the conclusion of all things.

So there should be no contesting this. Yet I know Christians who don't get this. We should be in support of Jerusalem being recognized as the capital of Israel. Yet there are Christians opposed to this---I guess for the sole reason that Trump supports it?

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What does the Lord Himself teach us? "Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called the children of God." And what does the Apostle say? "Insofar as it is up to you, live in peace with everyone." The Christian is called to peace, and to be on the side of peace; and to the side of justice and mercy, especially for the oppressed.

The Christian cannot be in support of the use of violence, especially unjust violence, against an oppressed people. Which is why the Christian cannot support Israel's violent and unjust occupation of the Palestinian territories, neither can the Christian support Palestine's use of violence against Israelis nor Israel's use of violence against Palestinians. The people of Christ must be on the side of peace, mercy, and justice--and to advocate for the poor, the victim, and the oppressed. To not do this is to deny our high calling in Jesus to be the cross-bearing people summoned and elected in Him to the life of faith to which we have been called.

And faith cannot favor power, faith must always stand on the side of the weak and the lowly, for Christ our God has made Himself weak and lowly for our sake, as the Apostle says: "Have this same mind in you that was in Christ Jesus, who though being in the form of God did not consider equality with God something to be exploited, but emptied Himself, becoming a slave, born in human likeness. And being found in human likeness, He humbled Himself and became obedient, even to the point of death--even death on a cross." (Philippians 2:5-8)

Ours can never be power or glory, but always the way of the cross as we look to Christ and Christ alone, who is the Author and Finisher of our faith. For what does the Apostle say the Lord told him elsewhere? "My strength is made perfect in weakness" (2 Corinthians 12:9) and the Apostle says in another place, "God chose the foolish things of this world to confound the wise, God chose the weak things of the world to confound the strong." (1 Corinthians 1:27)

Do not cling to the strongman, but instead Christ who gives Himself freely, His broken body and shed blood, for you.

-CryptoLutheran

Lybrah said:

My point is that if God is for them, then as Christians, we should be as well. Although there probably are Christian Palestinians, isn't the majority Muslim?

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Not "probably", there are. Palestinian Christians represent the historic Christian community in the region, going back to the Apostles.

-CryptoLutheran

Lybrah said:

My point is that if God is for them, then as Christians, we should be as well. Although there probably are Christian Palestinians, isn't the majority Muslim?

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Further, why should it matter if they are Christian or Muslim? Where in the Holy Gospel do you read, "Love your neighbor as yourself, unless they are a Muslim" or "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you, unless they are a Muslim"? Does He not say, "What does it profit you if you love only those who love you in return?" If we love only those who are like us, then we do not abide in Christ, as St. John has said, "If anyone should say that he loves God but hates his brother, he is a liar; for if he cannot love people who can be seen, he cannot love God who is unseen." And Christ has indeed said that how we treat the stranger is how we treat Him, saying, "I was a stranger" both to the righteous saying, "I was a stranger and you welcomed Me" and to the wicked saying, "I was a stranger and you did not welcome me". How we treat others, especially the least of these, is how we treat Christ. If we refuse the hungry, the thirsty, the stranger, the naked, and the sick then we refuse Christ Himself, and He says to us, "I never knew you". For He also says, "Whoever denies Me before men, I will deny before My Father who is in heaven." Let us not deny Christ by denying our fellow man.

-CryptoLutheran

Lybrah said:

Okay, so why does it say in the book of Revelations that when all of the surrounding countries come for Israel, God is going to destroy all of them?

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It doesn't. It describes the nations being gathered up by the devil against Jerusalem. Of course your reading also assumes a literalist-futurist interpretation which is hardly a given.

-CryptoLutheran

Lybrah said:

How can one be a Christian and be against Israel, on the side of the Palestinians? Or be in favor of a divided state? If they read the bible, they'd know God Himself promised that land to the Abraham and the Jews. So there should be no contesting this. Yet I know Christians who don't get this. We should be in support of Jerusalem being recognized as the capital of Israel. Yet there are Christians opposed to this---I guess for the sole reason that Trump supports it?

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It is incredibly insulting to hear people say that a well-throughtout personal, profession and philosophical position is a personal attack on the president whenever it disagrees with him, or his policies. But, I doubt that matters much.

As for Israel: Israel is a people. Worshiping a strip of land, and concluding that the people that are there, or come from there are automatically God's, and automatically the duty of the world to protect them. A lot of people the world persecutes are actually ISRAEL.

Israel has also done some egregious things, and they blackmail the US government for money that exceeds many countries' GDP. You would have to ignore the exiling, murders, imprisonment, torture and downright removal of by blood Hebrews, as well as people who have the audacity to go against the physical nation.

God repeatedly says Israel is a people that was allotted divinely promised land. How do you think (Ezekiel 36:19) that Israel will be scattered if it is on piece if Israel is a physical nation? Or, do you think God was scattering pieces of the land Israel all over the world, and then He consolidated those pieces into physical Israel of today?

After going through this thread completely, there is an uncomfortable amount of conspiracy theory and anti-semitism going on.

-CryptoLutheran

Rick Otto said:

How do you stand with them and support them?

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A variety of ways.

Nige55 said:

A variety of ways.

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I'm impressed.

ViaCrucis said:

After going through this thread completely, there is an uncomfortable amount of conspiracy theory and anti-semitism going on.

-CryptoLutheran

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Now there is too much false and vague allegation and anti-free thought being exercised.

We need more of this:
"The Christian cannot be in support of the use of violence, especially unjust violence, against an oppressed people. Which is why the Christian cannot support Israel's violent and unjust occupation of the Palestinian territories, neither can the Christian support Palestine's use of violence against Israelis nor Israel's use of violence against Palestinians. The people of Christ must be on the side of peace, mercy, and justice--and to advocate for the poor, the victim, and the oppressed. To not do this is to deny our high calling in Jesus to be the cross-bearing people summoned and elected in Him to the life of faith to which we have been called."