Do you stand with Israel?

[Nige55]

"TLK Valentine, post: 72334329, member: 306134"]Then why do you do it?

Surely you also do things without seeking something in return ? If you can't get past that, you're not going to understand the heart behind it.

The difference being?

Oh come on, you know the difference. Everyone knows the difference.

True, being "His chosen" doesn't carry the same clout it once did... so why side with them?

"Doesn't carry the same clout" ??! I was referring to the Holocaust. Why side with them ? - Because the world has repeatedly wanted to snuff them out. That's one reason (amongst many).

 

[Landon Caeli]

I'm not a big fan of self-fulfilling prophecy.... I don't find them all that convincing.

Were it not for the stock and trade that people put in the Bible (for no other reason than it is the Bible) Israel would be little more than subprime real estate... called Palestine.

Thank you. I hadn't thought of that POV before. It explains a lot.

 

[Landon Caeli]

So aggrivated attitudes toward Israel seem to rely on jealosy and discontent for the bible.

...With the latter though, I'm not sure if it's actually discontent for the bible or if this weight lies more heavily upon on those they dub "the Christian Right".
Christian right - Wikipedia

Maybe it's 50/50?

 

[TLK Valentine]

"TLK Valentine, post: 72334329, member: 306134"]Then why do you do it?

Surely you also do things without seeking something in return ? If you can't get past that, you're not going to understand the heart behind it.

I understand the value of doing what's right because it's right... what I'm trying to understand is why something is right because X says it's right.

The difference being?

Oh come on, you know the difference. Everyone knows the difference.

Pretend I don't... humor me.

True, being "His chosen" doesn't carry the same clout it once did... so why side with them?

"Doesn't carry the same clout" ??! I was referring to the Holocaust.

And I was referring to the entire history of the Jewish people -- of which the holocaust was only the most recent in a series of atrocities against them.

Why side with them ? - Because the world has repeatedly wanted to snuff them out. That's one reason (amongst many).

Some people have a natural tendency to side with the underdogs, it's true -- but it's hard to believe that Christianity tends to naturally attract such people, especially insofar as the Jews are concerned... once one looks at history and realizes that Christians have been the source of much of the Jews' grief for centuries.

Altruism isn't going to cut it -- a collective guilty conscience, perhaps, but not altruism.

 

[TLK Valentine]

So aggrivated attitudes toward Israel seem to rely on jealosy and discontent for the bible.

Unless you're talking about the hostility from the Arab community in the Middle East... getting land stolen tends to leave a chip on one's shoulder, Bible or no Bible.

 

[Landon Caeli]

Unless you're talking about the hostility from the Arab community in the Middle East... getting land stolen tends to leave a chip on one's shoulder, Bible or no Bible.

And that's the third. Yes. Some here in the West even claim that viewpoint, while at the same time ignoring the human rights issues that exist in the Muslim countries, like what a Palestinian state would be. And is.

Palestinian law - Wikipedia
"The Basic Law is based loosely on Shari'a:

According to Article 4:

1. Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect and sanctity of all other heavenly religions shall be maintained.
2. The principles of Islamic Shari'a shall be the main source of legislation.
3. Arabic shall be the official language.
   — Mideastweb.org [4]"

 

[Nige55]

"TLK Valentine, post: 72334715, member: 306134"I understand the value of doing what's right because it's right... what I'm trying to understand is why something is right because X says it's right.

I'm not even doing it because it's 'right' or not, I'm doing it out of adoration. That doesn't mean adoration to attain eternal salvation, it's simply means adoration.


Pretend I don't... humor me.

We have all experienced our heart telling us something different to what our mind, or will is telling us.
A parent punishing a child know's it's necessary, but their heart can still ache.


And I was referring to the entire history of the Jewish people -- of which the holocaust was only the most recent in a series of atrocities against them.



Some people have a natural tendency to side with the underdogs, it's true -- but it's hard to believe that Christianity tends to naturally attract such people, especially insofar as the Jews are concerned... once one looks at history and realizes that Christians have been the source of much of the Jews' grief for centuries.

Couldn't agree more, no wonder they don't trust Christians who have been horrendous to them through history. There's a massive amount of repairing to do, damage that has been done in the name of Christianity and Roman Catholicism, and that's before you even get to the Arab world.
P.S. I listed the underdog example as one of many reasons, but if you're not a believer there's no point covering the other reasons.

BTW, apologies about the quotes/replies, I haven't found how to quote and respond to divided posts.

 

[Nige55]

Unless you're talking about the hostility from the Arab community in the Middle East... getting land stolen tends to leave a chip on one's shoulder, Bible or no Bible.

The land has always been a smokescreen for the real motivators. If it wasn't land, it would be something else. Essentially it comes down to an acceptance in Israel's right to exist.
BTW, Just curious TLK, have you been there or spent much time there ?

 

[TLK Valentine]

I'm not even doing it because it's 'right' or not, I'm doing it out of adoration. That doesn't mean adoration to attain eternal salvation, it's simply means adoration.

You love what He loves because he loves it, hate what He hates because He hates it, simply because you adore Him that much. Ok, I'll buy that.

We have all experienced our heart telling us something different to what our mind, or will is telling us.
A parent punishing a child know's it's necessary, but their heart can still ache.

Reason vs. emotion? God's thoughts are beyond our ken, but His feelings can be read... Ok, I'll buy that, too.

Couldn't agree more, no wonder they don't trust Christians who have been horrendous to them through history. There's a massive amount of repairing to do, damage that has been done in the name of Christianity and Roman Catholicism, and that's before you even get to the Arab world.

The irony being that in that little three-way dance -- Christians and Muslims and Jews... (Oh, my!) -- there are plenty of historical incidents of two sides combining forces against the offenses of a third... only to have the roles switch with the next full moon...

P.S. I listed the underdog example as one of many reasons, but if you're not a believer there's no point covering the other reasons.

Oh, I don't know... you were doing a fair job of it thus far...

 

[TLK Valentine]

The land has always been a smokescreen for the real motivators. If it wasn't land, it would be something else. Essentially it comes down to an acceptance in Israel's right to exist.

Well, that's the point, isn't it? Israel wouldn't exist today had the land not been taken...

BTW, Just curious TLK, have you been there or spent much time there ?

Can't say that I've had the opportunity.

 

[TLK Valentine]

And that's the third. Yes. Some here in the West even claim that viewpoint, while at the same time ignoring the human rights issues that exist in the Muslim countries, like what a Palestinian state would be. And is.

Palestinian law - Wikipedia
"The Basic Law is based loosely on Shari'a:

According to Article 4:

1. Islam is the official religion in Palestine. Respect and sanctity of all other heavenly religions shall be maintained.
2. The principles of Islamic Shari'a shall be the main source of legislation.
3. Arabic shall be the official language.
   — Mideastweb.org [4]"

Not seeing the relevance -- these people don't deserve their land because of what they would do with it?

 

[Landon Caeli]

Not seeing the relevance -- these people don't deserve their land because of what they would do with it?

That's putting it the wrong way. It's more like: The territory called Palestine has an inferior governmental structure than Israel, so the Israeli government should be responsible for organizing the land, zoning it, and making it available to the people.

There will be plenty of good opportunities for the children of those Palestinians in the future. They should want to be a part of Israel for their own benefit... But, their government chooses violence to maintain it's power, and encourages resistance for it's own selfish cause.

...The people in the Palestinian territories are being misled. Purposely.

 

[TLK Valentine]

That's putting it the wrong way. It's more like: The territory called Palestine has an inferior governmental structure than Israel, so the Israeli government should be responsible for organizing the land, zoning it, and making it available to the people.

There will be plenty of good opportunities for the children of those Palestinians in the future. They should want to be a part of Israel for their own benefit... But, their government chooses violence to maintain it's power, and encourages resistance for it's own selfish cause.

...The people in the Palestinian territories are being misled. Purposely.

Indeed -- if only they would just put their trust and faith in their conquerors, and honestly believe it's all for their own good...

 

[Gene2memE]

So aggrivated attitudes toward Israel seem to rely on jealosy and discontent for the bible.

Or, maybe, it could be that they've been an occupying, blockading and repressive force in the Palestinian territories for 50 years. Have state sanctioned illegally settling occupied land. Have actively practice a form of apartheid in recent decades. Have engaged in what could be argued to be collective reprisals and punishment and have acted - on occasions - with disproportionate force to acts of violence aimed against its citizens. Have killed - by their own admissions - thousands of non-combatants, creating an exceptionally lop-sided death toll.

I'm not arguing that Israel doesn't have a right to defend itself, or to punish those who transgress against it, or that the Palestinians are blameless (they certainly are not). But come on, are you seriously arguing that "jealosy and discontent for the bible" are the root cause of negative attitudes towards Israel.

The Israel-Palestine conflict is a dark, murky, bloody self-perpetuating business with blame and mis-deeds enough on both sides to permanently smear the name of the other. Neither side is with the angels on this one, and its easy to pick one side and demonise the other.

 

[Nige55]

Indeed -- if only they would just put their trust and faith in their conquerors, and honestly believe it's all for their own good...

Israel aren't their biggest problem currently, it's the power struggle between the PA and Hamas that's crippling the people. It also doesn't help that so much foreign aid is directed by Hamas towards building terror tunnels and lining the pockets of Hamas leaders.
I've witnessed first hand the deception that people are fed when it comes to Israel being 'oppressors', the BBC themselves portraying Israeli doctors and nurses supposedly dishing the dirt on how Israeli hospitals treat Palestinian patients horrifically and basically let them die. Except that they weren't actually Israelis, they were Palestinians, it wasn't an Israeli hospital and they weren't speaking Hebrew.
Most people watching that report would have believed it, and that belief is now on a much larger scale.

Israel is no angel, has has much to be criticised for, but unless you've spent much time there, - you're not really going to know the true nature of both sides.

The bottom line is that one side want's the other dead, and the other doesn't.

 

[TLK Valentine]

Israel aren't their biggest problem currently, it's the power struggle between the PA and Hamas that's crippling the people. It also doesn't help that so much foreign aid is directed by Hamas towards building terror tunnels and lining the pockets of Hamas leaders.

Sounds like the Palestianians aren't the problem, Hamas (or more specifically, their military arm) is.

I've witnessed first hand the deception that people are fed when it comes to Israel being 'oppressors', the BBC themselves portraying Israeli doctors and nurses supposedly dishing the dirt on how Israeli hospitals treat Palestinian patients horrifically and basically let them die. Except that they weren't actually Israelis, they were Palestinians, it wasn't an Israeli hospital and they weren't speaking Hebrew.
Most people watching that report would have believed it, and that belief is now on a much larger scale.

Never heard of it -- is there a link to it?

Israel is no angel, has has much to be criticised for, but unless you've spent much time there, - you're not really going to know the true nature of both sides.

The bottom line is that one side want's the other dead, and the other doesn't.

True, but anyone who can lie on television can also lie in person.

 

[Nige55]

"TLK Valentine, post: 72338104, member: 306134"]Sounds like the Palestianians aren't the problem, Hamas (or more specifically, their military arm) is.

Indeed, they're as much a problem for the PA as they are the Palestinian people.

Never heard of it -- is there a link to it?

It was a BBC TV documentary during the second intifada (pretty early on), there were no parallel online documentaries of that at the time. I've had a look and can't find any records of it.

True, but anyone who can lie on television can also lie in person.

True, but you certainly get to see things the way they really happen !