LDS Joseph Smith Started a False Religion

Danthemailman said:

Thank you for your testimony, but that still does not answer the question, "What must I do to be saved?"

Click to expand...

oh- sorry, got distracted and forgot to answer that. For that, I shall refer to Act 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.

Danthemailman said:

If you were standing at the gates of heaven right this moment and Jesus Christ asked you why He should let you into heaven, what would be your exact answer?

Click to expand...

It's not because what I have done, but because what He has done, if He would have me.

Phoebe Ann said:

You might say that to Him, but your eternal life depends on obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church.

Click to expand...

False statement, I've corrected you on many times. I'm not interested in spending my time explaining it again, just to be ignored again.

Jane_Doe said:

oh- sorry, got distracted and forgot to answer that. For that, I shall refer to Act 16
30 And brought them out, and said, Sirs, what must I do to be saved?

31 And they said, Believe on the Lord Jesus Christ, and thou shalt be saved, and thy house.

32 And they spake unto him the word of the Lord, and to all that were in his house.

33 And he took them the same hour of the night, and washed their stripes; and was baptized, he and all his, straightway.

34 And when he had brought them into his house, he set meat before them, and rejoiced, believing in God with all his house.


It's not because what I have done, but because what He has done, if He would have me.

Click to expand...

Are you saying we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized in order to be saved or do you believe we are saved the moment that we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ "prior to receiving water baptism?" (Acts 10-:43-47; 11:17). Please explain what YOU believe it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ." It's true that it's not because of what we have done (Titus 3:5) but because of what He has done (Romans 3:22-28; Romans 4:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Phoebe Ann said:

You might say that to Him, but your eternal life depends on obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Mormon church.

View attachment 217896

LDS Doctrine and Covenants Student Manual Enrichment G, p. 395

Articles of Faith
3 We believe that through the Atonement of Christ, all mankind may be saved, by obedience to the laws and ordinances of the Gospel.

Click to expand...

That is certainly a "different" gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). The Bible clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Yet in the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 25:23, we read - For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Ironhold said:

Do you have any idea how many mainline Christians I've had to teach their own theology and their own religious history because they were practically illiterate on the subjects?

Click to expand...

Yes, I covered that in my very next sentence in the post you quoted. I think if you read my entire post you will see where I was going with that statement.

Side note: One of my frustrations since moving from Seattle to the rural bible belt in KY is the incredible religious dogmatism around here. People are absolutely married to some of the most nuanced of biblical issues, yet many of them that have attended religiously (no pun intended) for DECADES can't tell you the difference between the old and new testaments. And no, that last sentence is not hyperbole. It is real. It comes from a conversation I had with a friend who became a pastor at one of these churches. He was fired for trying to actually teach them what is in the bible. What they wanted was justification and hellfire preaching.

It was said to me by a music director of a church with a lot of members who are professors at a Christian university that, regarding biblical doctrines other than the basic gospel message, the more one knows and has studied the scripture, the less sure they are about their position on the more minor doctrines. I've found the opposite to also be true in some areas around here. i.e. it is often the case that the LESS they know, the more committed they are to their position. Someone told them in VBS when they were six, and they've held it with a tenacious grip, not knowing that that is how the person teaching it learned, and how their teacher learned, etc.

Danthemailman said:

That is certainly a "different" gospel (Galatians 1:6-9). The Bible clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Yet in the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 25:23, we read - For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Click to expand...

Just so I'm clear on what you're getting at here, Salvation is the free gift of God. But, does one prefer to utilize that gift, or does one prefer to pursue sin and death? Salvation is God Himself (John 14:23). We can have God and freedom or we can have sin and enslavement to it - which brings death. The Choice, to varying degrees, is ours throughout our lifetimes. Would you say otherwise?

Danthemailman said:

Are you saying we must believe on the Lord Jesus Christ and get water baptized in order to be saved or do you believe we are saved the moment that we believe on the Lord Jesus Christ "prior to receiving water baptism?" (Acts 10-:43-47; 11:17).

Click to expand...

If you're asking if I believe Mark 16:16, the answer is "yes". How about you?

Danthemailman said:

Please explain what YOU believe it means to "believe on the Lord Jesus Christ."

Click to expand...

I'm not sure what all you're asking here. It's a pretty simple statement already.

Danthemailman said:

It's true that it's not because of what we have done (Titus 3:5) but because of what He has done (Romans 3:22-28; Romans 4:4-6; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4).

Click to expand...

Yep!

Danthemailman said:

The Bible clearly states that we are saved by grace through faith, not works (Ephesians 2:8,9). Yet in the Book of Mormon in 2 Nephi 25:23, we read - For we labor diligently to write, to persuade our children, and also our brethren, to believe in Christ, and to be reconciled to God; for we know that it is by grace that we are saved, after all we can do.

Click to expand...

There's no conflict here. Both say we are saved by grace. Yes, we are to strive to follow Him, but all fall short. Still, we strive to follow him, superpowered every step by Him. We don't ever 'earn' salvation ourselves- such an idea is laughable.

Phoebe Ann said:

I've never met a pastor who would organize an angry mob ---- NEVER!

Click to expand...

Count yourself lucky, then.

Meanwhile, individual LDS congregations are having to consider their strategies for dealing with mobs of protesters bursting into their services like some sort of Christian Antifa.

Phoebe Ann said:

Oh, and it isn't national news?

Click to expand...

Nope.

Mobs have been bursting into LDS congregations for decades now and to my knowledge not a single national-level news outlet has batted an eyelash.

Egomaniac in heels wants to "march" on a church building? Let's bring out the helicopters!

Dozens of people storming into everyday LDS meetings to intimidate everyone and make sure that services can't be held? Less important than the weekend snooker tournament.

Jane_Doe said:

If you're asking if I believe Mark 16:16, the answer is "yes". How about you?

Click to expand...

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

I'm not sure what all you're asking here. It's a pretty simple statement already.

Click to expand...

To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to not only believe all that is true about Him and therefore the totality of His person (Savior, God), but to also trust exclusively in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Trusting in Christ + water baptism or Christ plus some other good work is not believing on or in HIM, but in Him "plus something else" (works) which renders Christ an insufficient Savior.

Yep!

Click to expand...

You say yep, but now you just demonstrated that you are trusting in your baptism (which is a work of righteousness) to save you and not in Christ alone.

There's no conflict here. Both say we are saved by grace. Yes, we are to strive to follow Him, but all fall short. Still, we strive to follow him, superpowered every step by Him. We don't ever 'earn' salvation ourselves- such an idea is laughable.

Click to expand...

There is conflict between saved by grace through faith, not works and saved by grace after all you can do. Believers strive to follow Him BECAUSE we are saved and not to become saved. It is our reasonable service. If salvation is based even just in part on our works, then we merit salvation at least in part. If salvation is after all WE can do, then we earn it based on what we do. Can't have it both ways.

Danthemailman said:

Mark 16:16 - He who believes and is baptized will be saved (general cases without making a qualification for the unusual case of someone who believes but is not baptized) but he who does not believe will be condemned. The omission of baptized with "does not believe" shows that Jesus does not make baptism absolutely essential to salvation. Condemnation rests on unbelief, not on a lack of baptism. So salvation rests on belief. NOWHERE does the Bible say "baptized or condemned."

If water baptism is absolutely required for salvation, then why did Jesus not mention it in the following verses? (3:15,16,18; 5:24; 6:29,40,47; 11:25,26). What is the ONE requirement that Jesus mentions 9 different times in each of these complete statements? BELIEVES. *What happened to baptism? *Hermeneutics.

John 3:18 - He who believes in Him is not condemned; but he who (is not water baptized? - NO) does not believe is condemned already, because he has not (been water baptized? - NO) because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to not only believe all that is true about Him and therefore the totality of His person (Savior, God), but to also trust exclusively in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation. Trusting in Christ + water baptism or Christ plus some other good work is not believing on or in HIM, but in Him "plus something else" (works) which renders Christ an insufficient Savior.

You say yep, but now you just demonstrated that you are trusting in your baptism (which is a work of righteousness) to save you and not in Christ alone.

There is conflict between saved by grace through faith, not works and saved by grace after all you can do. Believers strive to follow Him BECAUSE we are saved and not to become saved. It is our reasonable service. If salvation is based even just in part on our works, then we merit salvation at least in part. If salvation is after all WE can do, then we earn it based on what we do. Can't have it both ways.

Click to expand...

If you don’t believe it is doubtful you need to mention baptism. If you don’t believe your not going to do those things a believer is

fatboys said:

If you don’t believe it is doubtful you need to mention baptism. If you don’t believe your not going to do those things a believer is

Click to expand...

There are plenty of people who believe “mental assent” in the existence and historical facts about Christ (that have been water baptized) BUT do not truly believe in Christ as the all sufficient means of their salvation. Prior to my conversion, been there, done that.

Danthemailman said:

To believe on the Lord Jesus Christ is to not only believe all that is true about Him and therefore the totality of His person (Savior, God), but to also trust exclusively in His finished work of redemption as the all sufficient means of our salvation.

Click to expand...

" I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." - Christ.

Danthemailman said:

You say yep, but now you just demonstrated that you are trusting in your baptism (which is a work of righteousness) to save you and not in Christ alone.

Click to expand...

I didn't say that.

Danthemailman said:

There is conflict between saved by grace through faith, not works and saved by grace after all you can do. Believers strive to follow Him BECAUSE we are saved and not to become saved. It is our reasonable service. If salvation is based even just in part on our works, then we merit salvation at least in part. If salvation is after all WE can do, then we earn it based on what we do. Can't have it both ways.

Click to expand...

I didn't say salvation was based on works- in fact I said that idea was laughable.