Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

Radagast · Oct 1, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Fallen angels were once holy angels and were one with God before they fell... (Jude 1:6)

Jude 1:6 doesn't say that. And it is heretical and blasphemous to suggest that parts of God could sin and fall away.

Neogaia777 said:
Angels are not God and I never said so...? I said they were parts of him

Same thing, and equally false.

But I don't think there's any point me continuing this conversation.

Neogaia777 · Oct 1, 2017

Radagast said:
Jude 1:6 doesn't say that. And it is heretical and blasphemous to suggest that parts of God could sin and fall away.

You don't think that Satan was once a holy angel before we came to be, that he was a part of God till one day inequity was found in him (sin) then, he was fallen and went from Lucifer or light bearer to Satan, went from good and obedient to evil and rebellious and self-willed and a third of the angels went with him, who were one with God, but then became separated from God...?

God did not sin, the angels did (some of them), God must have created them with some measure of a will of their own, but I do not think that, when they were one with God, before they fell, that they exercised or used it, until they chose to sin with it...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 · Oct 1, 2017

Radagast said:
Jude 1:6 doesn't say that. And it is heretical and blasphemous to suggest that parts of God could sin and fall away.

Same thing, and equally false.

But I don't think there's any point me continuing this conversation.

Why doesn't Jude 1:6 say that again...?

Neogaia777 · Oct 1, 2017

Radagast said:
Jude 1:6 doesn't say that. And it is heretical and blasphemous to suggest that parts of God could sin and fall away.

Same thing, and equally false.

But I don't think there's any point me continuing this conversation.

Look just shout "heresy" at me and deny the truth cause you just can't handle or swallow it like so many people do with truth, if you like, K?

Truth is always controversial...

God Bless!

Phantasman · Oct 1, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Yes, the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same. It's just how different translations render the term.

No, the Holy Spirit is not created -- He is YHWH and existed with the Father and Son since the beginning. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

The "power of the Highest" overshadowed Mary and the Holy Ghost that came upon her.

Luke:
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Holy Ghost could not be given to her, because Jesus had not yet given her to man.

The Father created the "beginning" as he was always before it. Not hard to see. Just to understand.

he-man · Oct 1, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
I never brought up 1 John 5:7-8 into this discussion. Someone brought it up in one of the threads I follow (I can't remember if it was in this thread or another one). However, I never use it in defense of the Trinity myself.

The truth of the Trinity does not rest on 1 John 5:7-8 in the KJV. There are many verses in the Bible that support the doctrine.

I don't see what Micah 3:8 has to do with this, nor with Psalm 104:30, nor with Psalm 139:7. All these mention the Holy Spirit....so all you're really showing is that the Holy Spirit is in the OT, and thereby pointing to His Deity and identity as YHWH. I don't think that's what you were meaning to show, but maybe it is?

However, Job 34:15-15 doesn't fit that, since that isn't really talking about the Holy Spirit, but it mentions the word "spirit."

Likewise, Luke 1:35 is talking about the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary.

So...for almost all these verses, you are simply showing the deity of the Holy Spirit.

As for your quote regarding "Christ also said," see my hands and my feet they are not spiritual.."

That's taking the passage out of context and changing the meaning. I assume you are talking about Luke 24:39?

When reading this, keep in mind that this was after Jesus' resurrection...

This is what it says in context:
Luke 24:36-43 (NASB)
While they were telling these things, He Himself stood in their midst and said to them, "Peace be to you."

But they were startled and frightened and thought that they were seeing a spirit.

And He said to them, "Why are you troubled, and why do doubts arise in your hearts? See My hands and My feet, that it is I Myself; touch Me and see, for a spirit does not have flesh and bones as you see that I have."

And when He had said this, He showed them His hands and His feet.

While they still could not believe it because of their joy and amazement, He said to them, "Have you anything here to eat?"

They gave Him a piece of a broiled fish; and He took it and ate it before them.

Okay, so what is going on here? Like I said, this is after Jesus' resurrection. Jesus is in His resurrected body, which is the same body that He died in, but that has been changed to a different type. It's the type of body that Paul talks about in 1 Corinthians 15 -- it can't get sick and die. It can walk through walls, etc. It's still a human body, but has been changed in type to an immortal/resurrected body.

Jesus showed them His hands and feet, which still had the nail holes from the crucifixion. The disciples had thought that he was a ghost (spirit). He was telling them that he wasn't a ghost (spirit). He had a real, bodily, physical resurrection. His body was real.

He then ate food to prove it to them further.

Which proves he was not part of the Holy Spirit since he was not yet resurrected and had died the birth death of sin, spending 2 1/2 days in Hell. It is further proven that God alone is the only one who can appoint a seat on the right or left of the throne. Spoken by Jesus, himself.

Baby Cottontail · Oct 1, 2017

redleghunter said:
Please consider the following:

Mark 1: New King James Version (NKJV)

The beginning of the gospel of Jesus Christ, the Son of God. As it is written in the Prophets:

“Behold, I send My messenger before Your face,
Who will prepare Your way before You.”
“The voice of one crying in the wilderness:
‘Prepare the way of the Lord;
Make His paths straight.’”

This is quoting Isaiah 40:3

Isaiah 40:3 Lexham English Bible (LEB)
A voice is calling in the wilderness, “Clear the way of Yahweh!
Make a highway smooth in the desert for our God!

Notice Mark used Lord and Isaiah used Yahweh.

The use of LORD instead of Yahweh or YHWH was due to English translators honoring a Rabbinical Jewish tradition of not writing the Name of God out but inserting instead LORD usually in the capital L and ord in lower capitals. Whereas in the Hebrew it is the tetragrammaton YHWH.

By Mark directly quoting this verse, he is affirming Jesus Christ as YHWH.

I agree with you completely, and I have noticed this before. I did not bring it into this thread yet, so I am glad that you did. This is more proof that Jesus is YHWH.

Baby Cottontail · Oct 1, 2017

Radagast said:
This is in fact an almost exact quote from the Greek Septuagint version of Isaiah (replacing "paths of our God" by "His paths"):

Mark 1:3: φωνὴ βοῶντος ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ· ἑτοιμάσατε τὴν ὁδὸν κυρίου, εὐθείας ποιεῖτε τὰς τρίβους αὐτοῦ.

Isaiah 40:3: φωνὴ βοῶντος ἐν τῇ ἐρήμῳ· ἑτοιμάσατε τὴν ὁδὸν Κυρίου, εὐθείας ποιεῖτε τὰς τρίβους τοῦ Θεοῦ ἡμῶν.

Mark follows the Septuagint practice of replacing "YHWH" (which is translated "LORD" in many English versions of the Old Testament) by Kurios ("Lord"), but it's crystal-clear what he means.

As you say, Mark's quote from Isaiah is yet another implicit statement that Jesus is YHWH.

Thanks for this!!! Agreed -- Mark clearly intended on referring to Jesus as YHWH.

Baby Cottontail · Oct 1, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
Angels are "like God" but, are "not God", but Christ is God, so he is not any angel, even "the angel"...

Cause they are "like God" they are his representatives and messengers for him (God), they all each volunteer to having God work and operate through them to us, that is what makes them extensions of God, they never do anything apart from God's will at any time, unlike us or we or the fallen angels do...

They (the good angels) have no will of their own, their entire existence is "all God in and through them" and "none" of themselves ever or at any time... This is why we can "see God or Christ" in them, but they are not literally him, but do have the job of standing in for him (God) to us...

Just as the hear from him (God) they say and do, and do nothing otherwise or apart from that at any time, ever...

God Bless!

None of what you've been saying here is in line with what Christianity has taught about God, angels, or fallen angels. None of what you've stated is in any creed.

Where would you put the angels on the trinity diagram, using your beliefs about the angels?

Baby Cottontail · Oct 1, 2017

Phantasman said:
The "power of the Highest" overshadowed Mary and the Holy Ghost that came upon her.

Luke:
And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

The Holy Ghost could not be given to her, because Jesus had not yet given her to man.

The Father created the "beginning" as he was always before it. Not hard to see. Just to understand.

"the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee" is just another way of explaining the Holy Spirit overshadowing Mary. This doesn't say that the Holy Spirit was overshadowed by anything.

This verse is not saying that Mary received the Holy Spirit in the way that followers did after Pentecost. It is simply saying that this is how Mary became pregnant -- by the power of the Holy Spirit. This does not mean that she was given the Holy Spirit like after Pentecost.

Baby Cottontail · Oct 1, 2017

he-man said:
Which proves he was not part of the Holy Spirit since he was not yet resurrected and had died the birth death of sin, spending 2 1/2 days in Hell. It is further proven that God alone is the only one who can appoint a seat on the right or left of the throne. Spoken by Jesus, himself.

Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. I have never claimed that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

Neogaia777 · Oct 1, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
None of what you've been saying here is in line with what Christianity has taught about God, angels, or fallen angels. None of what you've stated is in any creed.

I know... There are reasons for that... However all that I have said is true and the truth...

Baby Cottontail said:
Where would you put the angels on the trinity diagram, using your beliefs about the angels?

Angels are not a part of trinity, however they are part of the body of God, the trinity can be likened to the head of the body...

God Bless!

Stormy · Oct 2, 2017

There is no requirement,that you acknowledge Christ as the son of God who died for your sins.
Instead you could just prove your own worthiness... Good luck with that

Neostarwcc · Oct 2, 2017

An interesting thought I just had. If belief that Jesus is Yahweh is required for salvation why was the thief on the cross saved? Because, he didn't believe that Jesus was the God of the OT. All the thief on the cross said was "Your punishment is unjust. Remember me when you come into your kingdom." and Jesus said "Today you will be with me in paradise." So, the only work the thief on the cross did was believe in Jesus and say that his punishment was unjust. Which fits in with the rest of the bible. Belief is a requirement for salvation. If we don't believe in Jesus we cannot be saved. But, did the thief on the cross even believe that Jesus was the Messiah? How exactly was he saved? Does anyone know?

Baby Cottontail · Oct 2, 2017

I have a real quick question, and I will probably post this same question in several threads that I follow & participate in, in the hopes that someone will be able to answer this.

Recently, within the past couple of days, several people have suggested in these threads on the subject of the trinity, that the trinity is off limits for discussing on this website. When I was reading through the rules for each forum, that is not the impression that I got. My understanding was that it was just non-trinitarians that cannot discuss their views against the Trinity. Not that the entire subject was completely off limits for everyone to discuss.

Have I overlooked something?

I have not heard from any mods on this, so I assumed that none of these threads were breaking site policy, nor were any of my posts in defense of the trinity.

The rules regarding discussing the trinity seem to be confusing. Could someone please clarify (preferably a mod). Are Trinitarian Christians allowed to discuss it, start threads about it, defend it when someone misunderstands the doctrine, defend it when someone tries to speak against it, etc?

Are we allowed to discuss the doctrine in private messages through the "conversations" system?

I do want to respect the rules, so if it isn't allowed, I will cease participation on these threads. If it is a completely forbidden topic, then I probably will leave this website, as I think it is an important doctrine for Christians to be able to discuss, and to help one another understand it better. It is considered one of the essential doctrines to Christian orthodoxy.

Thank you.

Baby Cottontail · Oct 2, 2017

Neogaia777 said:
I know... There are reasons for that... However all that I have said is true and the truth...

Angels are not a part of trinity, however they are part of the body of God, the trinity can be likened to the head of the body...

God Bless!

Okay, thanks for explaining your belief on this a little better. You still see the angels as part of God, though, if you consider them to be part of the body -- with the trinity being the head.....

Baby Cottontail · Oct 2, 2017

Stormy said:
There is no requirement,that you acknowledge Christ as the son of God who died for your sins.
Instead you could just prove your own worthiness... Good luck with that

So you don't think any belief in Christ is necessary at all?

What would you say is necessary then -- doing good things?

And what do you mean by proving your own worthiness?

Hillsage · Oct 2, 2017

mmbattlestar said:
An interesting thought I just had. If belief that Jesus is Yahweh is required for salvation why was the thief on the cross saved? Because, he didn't believe that Jesus was the God of the OT. All the thief on the cross said was "Your punishment is unjust. Remember me when you come into your kingdom." and Jesus said "Today you will be with me in paradise." So, the only work the thief on the cross did was believe in Jesus and say that his punishment was unjust. Which fits in with the rest of the bible. Belief is a requirement for salvation. If we don't believe in Jesus we cannot be saved. But, did the thief on the cross even believe that Jesus was the Messiah? How exactly was he saved? Does anyone know?

I was at a men's retreat years ago when the speaker asked this simple question; "WHAT is the bare minimum to believe in order to be saved?" My mind started racing with all the caveats presented in this thread....PLUS many thngs not even touched on. My fear at that moment would be that he would pick me out of the crowd of 300 to ask for an answer to his question. But he answered it himself; "WHAT did the thief on the cross do?" He partook in the revilings of him as the SON OF GOD. He also heard them declare that if Jesus was the Son of God to let GOD save him. Later he REPENTED and acknowledged he deserved death but Jesus did not. He then, SUBMITTING his life to Jesus, he cried out Lord remember me when you come into your kingdom.

That's it. Works for me, ever since. If people testify to doing that I 'consider' them as brother/sister in Christ. And everything else is mostlydoctrines and commandments and creeds of men, to fight about, like red headed step children of God.

he-man · Oct 2, 2017

Baby Cottontail said:
Jesus is not the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit is not Jesus. I have never claimed that Jesus is the Holy Spirit.

ok we both are not sometimes clear enough. Thanks

Baby Cottontail · Oct 2, 2017

he-man said:
ok we both are not sometimes clear enough. Thanks

No problem. It's good to clarify things. I think we all get into trouble when we make assumptions without actually finding out where someone is coming from. We all do this. I know I do.

Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

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