Is belief that Jesus is YHWH necessary for salvation?

[Saved.By.Grace]

Our language does help us to be clearer, and can clear up confusion (or add to confusion). One God in Three Persons is in line with what the church has taught. One Person in three Persons isn't what has been taught.

I wish there were an easier way to talk about the Trinity. It is a difficult concept for everyone, but this does not make it false. That's why it's good for Christians to talk to one another about it. We can help each other understand God better.

The Holy Trinity is not, 1+1+1, which is 3; but 1x1x1, which is 1!

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Okay, but why does Jesus say Matthew 20:23 "to sit on my right hand my left is not mine to give ...but the Fathers"?

Someone may have a better answer to this than I.

This is difficult, but Jesus could be suggesting here that He will not usurp the Father's authority.....

 

[AlexDTX]

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[Baby Cottontail]

John clearly explains that the OT was to try to receive the kingdom of God "some other way" and they (Jews) died. Their God had not the ability to spiritually save them. It was not until Christ came that man could even be saved. Those Jews were in the deep sleep (Hades) until the Christ left the physical to save them (Matthew) his other sheep. John 10 explains that no one before his Chrism could be saved. And his sheep had to wait for him as Christ to save them.

10 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that entereth not by the door into the sheepfold, but climbeth up some other way, the same is a thief and a robber.

2 But he that entereth in by the door is the shepherd of the sheep.

3 To him the porter openeth; and the sheep hear his voice: and he calleth his own sheep by name, and leadeth them out.

4 And when he putteth forth his own sheep, he goeth before them, and the sheep follow him: for they know his voice.

5 And a stranger will they not follow, but will flee from him: for they know not the voice of strangers.

6 This parable spake Jesus unto them: but they understood not what things they were which he spake unto them.

7 Then said Jesus unto them again, Verily, verily, I say unto you, I am the door of the sheep.

8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

9 I am the door: by me if any man enter in, he shall be saved, and shall go in and out, and find pasture.

If Jesus had been YHWH, the Jews would have heard Jesus voice when he walked among them. Since they didn't, and slayed him instead, I see no way Jesus and YHWH were anything the same. This "I AM" thing is nothing but words used to redirect spiritual thought, which the devil does with scripture constantly.

The "I AM" statements do have meaning. People tried to stone Jesus for them. They clearly understood what He was claiming about Himself.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

Someone may have a better answer to this than I.

This is difficult, but Jesus could be suggesting here that He will not usurp the Father's authority.....

remember, the majority of what Jesus said and did while on earth, He did as "the Son of Man", and not "God the Son". Like when He says that He did not know the Day of His own Return, which has led some to wrongly question His Deity. And in John 5:26, we read that the Father "gave" life to the Son, which again is misunderstood by those who do not understand the union of the Divine and Human in the One Person, Jesus Christ! Like Jesus "growing in wisdom", and Hebrews says "learned obedience", language that cannot be understood without a correct understanding on the complete Person of the Incarnate Jesus Christ. 100% God and 100% Man, yet completely without sin!

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Not going to debate the Trinity in this forum. But a good question would be:

Are the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit one in the same? Did Jesus create them? Or was it through them he was begotten?

Yes, the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same. It's just how different translations render the term.

No, the Holy Spirit is not created -- He is YHWH and existed with the Father and Son since the beginning. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

our sin nature is how we our tempted, if Jesus did not have this then He was not tempted as we are. scripture says He was tempted just the same as the rest of us.

Adam and Eve were temped before the Fall. You can still be tempted without having a sin nature.

 

[AlexDTX]

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[Saved.By.Grace]

Yes, the Holy Ghost and the Holy Spirit are the same. It's just how different translations render the term.

No, the Holy Spirit is not created -- He is YHWH and existed with the Father and Son since the beginning. The Holy Spirit overshadowed Mary.

In Acts 5:3-4, the Holy Spirit is clearly called, "GOD". the Greek has it, "τῷ θεῷ" (the God), which cannot be watered-down as the Jehovah's Witnesses do in John 1:1!

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God"

 

[jaybird88]

Adam and Eve were temped before the Fall. You can still be tempted without having a sin nature.

im sure you can, but were they tempted the exact same way we our tempted when they did not have the exact same nature? sounds like two different things to me. James said Jesus was tempted just the same as us.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Reading this "Creed" (which had its basis on an earlier "Creed" produced by an friend of the arch heretic, Arius) in the English language, without any investigation, gives the "sense" of its being Biblical and Orthodox. Which can also be the case if read in the Greek text.

Lets start with the term "begotten" in this Creed (and others), which is claimed to be the same meaning of the term used by the Apostle John. The Greek word being, "Μονογενῆ", which, apart from its "theological" meanings by certain Christian leaders, says nothing of any "begetting". The literal meaning is "of a single kind", or "unique", which is what Greek lexicons by Thayer and Arndt & Gingrich show. The classical Greek lexicon by Liddell & Scott, give the meaning as, "the only member of a kin or kind: hence, generally, only, single". The early Church was being challenged on the Person of Jesus Christ, with leaders like Origen, Lucian of Antioch, and Arius, to name some, who taught that Jesus Christ was "created" by God the Father. The Old Latin New Testament (before Jerome's), rendered, "Μονογενῆ", by "unicus" (unique). However, this was later changed, and adopted in Jerome's Latin Vulgate, by the Latin "unigenitus", which answers to the Greek, "μονογέννητος", and does mean, "only-begotten". This was used by the early Church "fathers" to combat the Arian heresy, and adopted into the Creeds. This was further taken from Origen's heretical teaching of the "eternal generation of the Son from the essence of the Father", thereby making the Father, "Fons Deitatis", which is not taught anywhere in the Holy Bible, and is clearly heretical, as it makes the Father to be the "source" of the "being" of both the Son and Holy Spirit. ""Μονογενῆ", in the Bible when used for Jesus Christ, is done for the "unique" relationship that He has with God the Father, and Holy Spirit, and His Incarnation, as the God-Man. It says nothing about any "begetting, or originating" from God the Father.

Next, we look at the other so-called "Orthodox" terms. "τὸν ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς γεννηθέντα πρὸ πάντων τῶν αἰώνων" (begotten from the Father before all ages); "Φῶς ἐκ Φωτός" (light from light); "Θεὸν ἀληθινὸν ἐκ Θεοῦ ἀληθινοῦ" (true God from true God). All of which seem to show the Deity of the Lord Jesus Christ, and His equality with God the Father. Wrong! In each case you will notice the use of the Greek preposition, "ἐκ", which does not mean "from", but, "out of", as "being derived from a source". God the Father is THE "Light", as in the actual "Sun". Jesus Christ is like the "rays" OUT of the Sun, and is "derived". Same with the Deity of Jesus Christ, it is "derived" from the "Essence" of the Father. This is clear from the use of "ἐκ", where we read of Jesus' "begetting" OUT OF the Father, before all ages! This is pure "subordinationism" of the "Essence" of Jesus Christ from the BEING of God the Father., In which case, Jesus CANNOT be "Essentially Equal" to the Father, and therefore must be His INFERIOR. Which is exactly was the "Creed" of Eusebius, which was the basis for the Nicene Creed, taught, and which the "Orthodox" Church, through compromise, adopted!

Next we read of the Holy Spirit, "τὸ ἐκ τοῦ Πατρὸς ἐκπορευόμενον" (Who proceeds from the Father). But notice the same Greek preposition, "ἐκ", used, which again shows "derived" from the Father, and later included the Son. The "Orthodox" Church used John 15:26 for its textual basis for this, but changed the Greek preposition from "παρά" (from besides), to "ἐκ" (out of).

The Holy Bible Teaches that there is One God: The Father, The Son and The Holy Spirit. One Godhead and Three Persons. Co-eternal, Co-essential, and Co-equal, in EVERY way.

I don't know if you saw my earlier question, but I'm wondering where you learned your Greek from, as well as how long you've been studying it. I wanted to know that from all of you guys who were talking about the Greek. I find it interesting.

I'm also wondering if there might have been a change in the Greek language itself between the biblical days and when the Nicene Creed was written. I know that English changes over time. Could some words have changed meaning, or different words come into the vocabulary that might account for the change?

I agree with you in regard to there being One God: The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit -- one Deity and three Persons. Co-eternal, co-essential, and co-equal, in every way.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Philippians 2:5-8 shows that Jesus Christ has always been Almighty God, and fully equal to the Father. He did not see this "equality" as something He needed to retain, but "humbled Himself", by taking on the full nature of a "human being", and becoming the God-Man, 100% God and 100% Man. Romans 8:3 (Greek text) shows that Jesus "human nature" was without sin, which is asserted elsewhere in the Bible. Luke 1:35, shows that the Holy Spirit ensured that the "human nature" that Jesus actually "derived" from Mary, was "without sin". Jesus also possessed a "human will", which include the "emotions", etc

I agree that Jesus Christ has always been Almighty God, and fully equal to the Father.

I have not said that Jesus was anything other than 100% God and 100% human.

I have not argued against Jesus being without sin, either. I am in full agreement that Jesus never sinned.

I have not argued against Jesus' human will or that He had human emotions.

I was replying to someone who didn't seem to believe some of this.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

The Holy Trinity is not, 1+1+1, which is 3; but 1x1x1, which is 1!

I have never argued that there are three gods!!

I agree fully that there is one God and that there are three Persons who are Him.

I was replying to someone who seemed to question this.

 

[he-man]

Someone may have a better answer to this than I.

This is difficult, but Jesus could be suggesting here that He will not usurp the Father's authority.....

AMEN TO THAT!

 

[Baby Cottontail]

Yes it is. You bring up a distinction that deserves further clarification. What us the difference between God and the persons of God? I have seen nothing in Scriptures indicating a difference.

The Persons are the Father, Son, and the Holy Spirit.

God is what is in the middle of the Trinity diagram that was posted earlier today.

In other words, God is YHWH, and each of the Persons is YHWH.

However, the Persons are not each other. (The Father is not the Son, the Father is not the Holy Spirit. The Son is not the Father, the Son is not the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit is not the Son, the Holy Spirit is not the Father.)

 

[Baby Cottontail]

remember, the majority of what Jesus said and did while on earth, He did as "the Son of Man", and not "God the Son". Like when He says that He did not know the Day of His own Return, which has led some to wrongly question His Deity. And in John 5:26, we read that the Father "gave" life to the Son, which again is misunderstood by those who do not understand the union of the Divine and Human in the One Person, Jesus Christ! Like Jesus "growing in wisdom", and Hebrews says "learned obedience", language that cannot be understood without a correct understanding on the complete Person of the Incarnate Jesus Christ. 100% God and 100% Man, yet completely without sin!

Agreed.

 

[Baby Cottontail]

On an unrelated topic, yesterday I heard the old song by Neil Diamnond, "I AM". He is a Jewish singer and I wonder if he was deliberately making an oblique reference to God, as though he is equal to God? It is clearly an existential song.

I am, i said
to no one there
and no one heard at all
not even the chair
i am, i cried
i am, said i
and i am lost, and i can't even say why
leavin' me lonely still

That's hard to say. Possibly......

However, "I AM," in today's culture has been adopted by New Agers as well, as well as it having non religious meanings that might be derived in just feeling that we exist.

It's very difficult to know what people today exactly mean by the term without getting into a conversation with them about it....

 

[Baby Cottontail]

In Acts 5:3-4, the Holy Spirit is clearly called, "GOD". the Greek has it, "τῷ θεῷ" (the God), which cannot be watered-down as the Jehovah's Witnesses do in John 1:1!

"But Peter said, Ananias, why hath Satan filled thine heart to lie to the Holy Ghost, and to keep back part of the price of the land? Whiles it remained, was it not thine own? and after it was sold, was it not in thine own power? why hast thou conceived this thing in thine heart? thou hast not lied unto men, but unto God"

Yep -- I know of that verse and have used it in a different thread to defend the Deity of the Holy Spirit.

 

[Saved.By.Grace]

I have never argued that there are three gods!!

I agree fully that there is one God and that there are three Persons who are Him.

I was replying to someone who seemed to question this.

I know you were, I was just adding to your conversation...

 

[Baby Cottontail]

im sure you can, but were they tempted the exact same way we our tempted when they did not have the exact same nature? sounds like two different things to me. James said Jesus was tempted just the same as us.

Jesus didn't have to have a bent towards sin in order to be tempted the same as us. Being tempted doesn't mean that we have to fall into sin.

Even us,with our sinful nature, we don't give into sin every single time we are tempted (though of course we do still sin at other times.)