Perfection

hedrick

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Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?
I took at look at the passage which ends in 5:48. It's all about loving enemies. Until that verse there's no reference to morality in general. Furthermore, the parallel in Luke 6:36 says "be merciful, just as your father is merciful." That fits the context better. I don't know why Matthew chose the word "perfect," but both from context and the Lukan parallel I don't think he meant moral perfection. Most likely he meant perfect in love.

Another comment comes from the Hermeneia commentary on Matthew: "Some have correctly emphasized that the concept must be interpreted not on the basis of the Greek doctrine of virtues but on the basis of its Jewish background. In Jewish texts individual pious persons (e.g., Noah or Abraham) can be described as perfect because of their piety and their obedience." But neither Noah nor Abraham were considered perfect in the sense you mean it.

I'll let others cite the many passages saying that there's no one without sin.
 
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disciple1

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Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?
1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

Galatians chapter 5 verse 14
The entire law is summed up in a single command love your neighbor as yourself.

That's the only law we have to obey and we'll fail a lot, but we just keep trying, the bible also says God loves a cheerful giver, so help people all you want.

I don't always give people all they ask for, but I still try to help them.
 
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dreadnought

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1 Peter chapter 4 verse 8
Love covers a great many sins.

Galatians chapter 5 verse 14
The entire law is summed up in a single command love your neighbor as yourself.

That's the only law we have to obey and we'll fail a lot, but we just keep trying, the bible also says God loves a cheerful giver, so help people all you want.

I don't always give people all they ask for, but I still try to help them.
Actually, there is a greater law, that we love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls (Matt 22:34-40).
 
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disciple1

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Actually, there is a greater law, that we love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls
NO same thing look at these verses.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
 
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dreadnought

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I think
NO same thing look at these verses.

Matthew chapter 25 verses 31-46
When the Son of Man comes" in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. he will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left. Then the King will say to those on his right, Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me. then the righteous will answer him, Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? When did we see you sick or in prison and got visit you? The King will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me. Then he will say to those on his left, Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.They also will answer, Lord, when did we see you hungry or thirsty or a stranger or needing clothes or sick or in prison, and did not help you? He will reply, I tell you the truth, whatever you did not do for one of the least of these, you did not do for me. Then they will go away to eternal punishment, but the righteous to eternal life.
I think Jesus made it very clear that the first and great commandment is to love the Lord with all our hearts, minds, and souls.
 
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dreadnought

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I took at look at the passage which ends in 5:48. It's all about loving enemies. Until that verse there's no reference to morality in general. Furthermore, the parallel in Luke 6:36 says "be merciful, just as your father is merciful." That fits the context better. I don't know why Matthew chose the word "perfect," but both from context and the Lukan parallel I don't think he meant moral perfection. Most likely he meant perfect in love.

Another comment comes from the Hermeneia commentary on Matthew: "Some have correctly emphasized that the concept must be interpreted not on the basis of the Greek doctrine of virtues but on the basis of its Jewish background. In Jewish texts individual pious persons (e.g., Noah or Abraham) can be described as perfect because of their piety and their obedience." But neither Noah nor Abraham were considered perfect in the sense you mean it.

I'll let others cite the many passages saying that there's no one without sin.
I think the Lord wants us to be perfect in all areas of our lives. Heaven is a beautiful thing, but we need to be holy to walk in.
 
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woobadooba

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Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?
It helps to look at a parallel passage found in Luke: "Therefore be merciful, just as your Father also is merciful." Luke 6:36 (NKJV)

Jesus was speaking within the context of loving others (see Luke 6:27-36; Matthew 5:43-48). Don't just love the people who are kind to you; love all people—even those who don't love you back. It's love that God desires to be perfected in us. Therefore, perfect love is what we should be striving to give.

"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another; as I have loved you, that you also love one another. By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another." John 13:34-35 (NKJV)
 
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Servant232

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What point are you making?
How does this tie in with the OP?

Was that answer after reading It to the end, looking at It, or didn't you examine It at all before answering, that is what I want to know. Thank You
 
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disciple1

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If we are in Christ, we are holy! God sees us as holy, not in ourselves, but through the righteousness of Christ that He has given us to replace our unholiness. Sanctification is the life-long process to transform our minds and behaviour for us to walk worthy of what God has given us.
So how do we become perfect
 
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According to Christianity St. John the Baptist and St. Mary the Theotokos are the purest examples we have, aside from Christ Himself.

That is the reason for their order on the Iconostasis. Both closest to Christ, one on the left, one on the right, both pointing to HIM.

Forgive me...
 
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toLiJC

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Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?

if e.g. a champion weightlifter believed that it is impossible for him to lift heavy weights, would he become a champion in weight lifting?! - Jesus said to the father of the demon-possessed boy: "If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes."(Mark 9:23), which is why it is written in Scripture that a person has first to believe that there is a true God That is always ready to support people believing in Him, and then we have to believe that every good thing is possible for Him and therefore also for those who believe in Him (this includes faithfulness to Him/His righteousness)

Blessings
 
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dqhall

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if e.g. a champion weightlifter believed that it is impossible for him to lift heavy weights, would he become a champion in weight lifting?! - Jesus said to the father of the demon-possessed boy: "If you can believe, all things are possible to him that believes."(Mark 9:23), which is why it is written in Scripture that a person has first to believe that there is a true God That is always ready to support people believing in Him, and then we have to believe that every good thing is possible for Him and therefore also for those who believe in Him (this includes faithfulness to Him/His righteousness)

Blessings
I remember a translation of 2 Corinthians 13:11-14 rendered by one translator, "aim for perfection." By another it was translated "become perfected." We need an example of what perfection is. In athletics, it may be the one(s) who wins the contest. In scientific scholarship, it may be the one whose publications are recognized as outstanding in a particular area of interest. If it is a cancer drug patent, it is the one producing the greatest amount of remission proven by clinical trials without overwhelming toxicity. Jesus taught about a pearl of great price. This was not your ordinary small warped pearl. This was a nearly perfect pearl of museum quality, the type a collector might want to purchase. Knowledge should perfect a person.

When we give we are not supposed to be boasting about it, but not let the right hand know what the left hand is doing. Feeding a village may not be as important as teaching a village to feed itself. Without family planning it is impossible.
 
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RGW00

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Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?
Anyone who is a Christian is perfect. Perfect in the way of they will be. Every child of God is perfect because Christ paid for our sins. If you honestly believe in Jesus, you don't have to answer for your sins to anyone but God, even though God has completely redeemed you and has washed away your sins. People who aren't followers of God He doesn't try to make better mainly because the Holy Spirit is not in them, therefore He cannot improve them in His name, and that is why they live a sinful life and will not enter paradise.
 
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hedrick

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I remember a translation of 2 Corinthians 13:11-14 rendered by one translator, "aim for perfection." By another it was translated "become perfected."
Don't place too much weight on that passage. The two translations you cite are weird. From The Word commentary:

"καταρτίζεσθε, “aim at restoration.” The issue of how to interpret this imperative—either middle (“mend your ways,” RSV; NEB; “pull yourselves together,” Barrett; 342; “set yourselves right,” Héring, 102; NIV) or passive (“be restored”; see Windisch, 426; Allo, 342; Furnish, 581, 582)" From the context it appears to be referring to restoring or bringing to good order the congregation.
 
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Wordkeeper

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I have considered that interpretation before myself, Wordkeeper. But while it might be natural to speak of men in such a way, to refer to the heavenly Father as being "mature" is sort of bizarre, as it insinuates a development in His character from once being in a place of being immature.

I believe the command to be perfect is explained by our Lord in John 17:20-23 (v. 23 specifically). It requires us to completely abide in Christ by abiding in the Spirit (John 15:1-10, 1 John 3:24). Is abiding so deeply in Christ that we enter into a state of permanent perfection possible? Not in my book. But if you take the commandment in a momentary sense, most certainly it is. The same is true of the commandment, "Be holy, for I am Holy." Can we walk in holiness? We not only can but must if we would please God (2 Corinthians 7:1). But will we ever walk in a state of permanent holiness? I don't see how the scriptures can support that position (1 John 2:1, Hebrews 12:1-2).
When I posted my view I first checked the context and found that the idea of the command to be perfect meaning to be complete, mature, ripe, fulfilled, arrived at a final state, clashed with comparing it with God's nature. How can we be required to be mature as God is mature? Was God ever raw, incomplete, not mature?


These dilemmas come up when we use systematic methods of interpretation. Biblical theologists don't feel the need to harmonise. Of course this leaves many bits of information not understood, which may be problematic.


I'm exploring a different way of interpretation which I call analytical theology.


The idea is that the writers of the text received original revelation and conveyed it in the primitive vocabulary they possessed, which is not as sophisticated and useful as modern versions.


How to Say Everything in a Hundred-Word Language


Further, it was understood that the words used would be accompanied by a speaker who would be able to supply the expansion of those simple terms.


Let's take an example. A useful one.


A systematic theologian would take an idea and describe it and then classify it, see where it fits. A biblical theologian would just take the information and add it to a big collection of disparate ideas, without needing to fit it, harmonise it.


The analytical theologian would try to see a pattern. The word or term must either be THE pattern or part of the pattern.


One overarching pattern, motif or theme which could be assigned to Scripture is transformation. Right from the beginning, God tells Adam to subdue the earth. So there is a transition from wild to tame.


God calls Abraham out from his father's house. The transition is from home to not home

God calls His Sons out of Egypt. The transition: from Egypt to Promised Land.

Our text calls for a transition from raw, immature to ripe, mature.

Now we see the possibility that Adam was commanded to transition from raw to ripe, immature to mature.


The Fall is possibly an interruption to the transition.


At this point, I’d like to get a confirmation.


Would you agree that a possibility exists that the overarching message the writers of Scripture tried to convey was their revelation that God's will was that humans should transition from incomplete to complete?


If you agree, we can expand on the view, the details, confirmation from other scholars with citations, and finally an understanding of if and why even God matures.


Bear in mind that there were people who obeyed God and even they did not receive what was promised, because the time had not come. Not so the people addressed in Matthew 5. Which is the good news after the Cross. The promise can now be received.


Hebrews 11:13-16
13All these died in faith, without receiving the promises, but having seen them and having welcomed them from a distance, and having confessed that they were strangers and exiles on the earth. 14For those who say such things make it clear that they are seeking a country of their own. 15And indeed if they had been thinking of that country from which they went out, they would have had opportunity to return. 16But as it is, they desire a better country, that is, a heavenly one. Therefore God is not ashamed to be called their God; for He has prepared a city for them.
......

Hebrews 11:39-40
39And all these, having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, 40because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.
 
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Ethan Larson

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Jesus said:

“You, therefore, must be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.” Matt 5:48 RSV

However, I’m always hearing people say that it is impossible to be perfect. Keeping in mind that the Lord helps us, is it that hard to repent of our sin?

Probably a rhetorical question. My reasoning is the background sounds like the Jews and Gentiles were giving payback to people they dislike. Then Jesus comes out saying you should love your enemies and friends you are wrong. [NOTE] This is not fact but more of an assumption.
 
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