Are babies unrighteousness?

Hank77

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And if babies are conceived/born without sin, then they would have no reason to die.
They are not guilty of any sin. But we all suffer the consequences of Adam's sin, which is physical death. So even after we repent we will still physically die someday. We are born with a human nature, not God's nature. Adam's children are born in Adam's image/nature.
After Adam sinned he didn't lose his relationship with God. He was ashamed and ran away from God. God went after Adam and made a blood sacrifice to atone for Adam and Eve's sin. That is not the picture of spiritual death.
 
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Emmy

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Dear GreatistheLord. A baby is free from all wrong thoughts or deeds, as long as a Baby does not understand the evil thoughts and deeds in the world. Jesus told us in Matthew 22: 35-40: " The first and great Commandment is: Love God with all thy heart, with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. The second is like it: love thy neighbour as thyself." Verse 40 tells us: on these two Commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets. God is Love, and God wants loving sons and daughters. God wants our love and obedience.
The Bible tells us: give up all unrighteous thoughts and deeds, Love God as God will be Loved, and love your neighbour( all you know and all you meet) love them as you love yourselves) treat everyone as we would love to be treated. Let us give up all unloving and uncaring thoughts, and start loving and caring. Love is very catching, and God will see our loving and kindness, and God will BLESS us. Why not give it a try? Let us be the men and women which God wants us to be, let us love and care. In Matthew 7: 7-10: we are told: Ask and you shall receive. Let us keep asking for love and then share it with all around. We will be surprised how God will Love and Lead us. I say this with love, GreatistheLord. Greetings from Emmy, your sister in Christ.
 
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Small Fish

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Jesus said that whatever is born of flesh is flesh and whatever is born of spirit is spirit. Every seed bring forth of its kind. Speaking of the desire of that nature. That's why we need to be born again. Born of the Spirit, born of God. So that our nature or desires can be changed from the earthly to the heavenly. It's not what the baby did or did not do but what it represents. Condemnation by representation.
 
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Hank77

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Nope. If you're going to take that viewpoint, then none of the Psalms are applicable to anyone other than the original Psalmist.

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.
That's not true. Everything has to be read in context. These were real human people with human natures and human problems.
 
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Hank77

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Does this debate increase anyone's faith? Does it set anyone more firmly on the mission of making disciples from all nations?
Do you suppose if you are witnessing the Gospel you may be asked this very question, what happens to babies when they die? That a very common question, so yes these discussions are good for the mission field.
 
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pius463

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And then do what with it? In the end, "Lord, I won plenty of debates."

Is that it?

No. No. No.
Honestly, I don't like the word "debate", I prefer to name it "sharing of knowledge". It is not to have a winner, it is to find His truth. It is up to individuals to agree or not to agree. Not to blame anyone, just try to answer questions based on the teachings, common sense, faith, and knowledge.
 
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devin553344

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Tell a person something long enough and eventually they'll believe it. I was told that by a wise person and wisdom is a gift from God , he said, "Tell a person their stupid and eventually they'll believe it, tell a person they're smart and they can believe in themselves and do great things".

I think the same applies to telling people their evil, what fruit does it bring? That a person believes their evil such that they error in sin? I think if more people pointed out the righteous in others and supported and edified the good in them the world would be a better place.

The same thing probably applies to calling babies sinners. Raise them to believe they are Good and perhaps they will aspire to be good and do good things, believing that they're good.

So then which view is better? This is why I support that babies are not sinners, it's wisdom from God as I see it. I can't imagine the teacher that calls his students stupid or for that matter evil. How does that bring out the best in the student?
 
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NothingIsImpossible

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As someone else once asked, how swift is that transition? There's no middle ground between Heaven and Hell, so there's no gradual change in outcomes. It seems that one instant a child is going to Heaven, regardless, and the next instant he's on his way to Hell. It's such a critical point in the life of a soul that is only gradually developing. The Bible also seems not to make any mention of this critical point.

I got mistreated by a lot of kids on my way to the age of accountability. I have a really hard time seeing them as innocent.
Thats why I feel once a child is old enough to know right from wrong, they lose their innocence and thus if they die go to hell. The problem has always been no one really knows at what age that takes place. Maybe it just depends on the child. Or maybe I'm wrong and will find out in heaven how it works/worked.
 
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GreatistheLord

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Jesus said that whatever is born of flesh is flesh and whatever is born of spirit is spirit. Every seed bring forth of its kind. Speaking of the desire of that nature. That's why we need to be born again. Born of the Spirit, born of God. So that our nature or desires can be changed from the earthly to the heavenly. It's not what the baby did or did not do but what it represents. Condemnation by representation.

So babies are condemned if they die, despite not being capable of choosing to be Christian? Really?
 
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RDKirk

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Do you suppose if you are witnessing the Gospel you may be asked this very question, what happens to babies when they die? That a very common question, so yes these discussions are good for the mission field.

You know what I've actually discovered? That this is true:

No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him.

I've discovered that the person who has been drawn by the Father doesn't need all those peripheral, made-up questions answered. On the day that a person is being drawn by the Father, all they need is what's contained in Matthew, Mark, Luke, or John.

They don't need the Gospel and "what happens to babies when they die?"

They don't need the Gospel and "can God create a rock too heavy for Him to lift?"

They don't need the Gospel and "if God knows the future does that mean we don't have free will?"

What I have seen is that the person who has been drawn by the Father doesn't need any answers beyond the Gospel to say, "I believe this."

And if he hasn't been drawn by the Father, no other answers are going to get him to Christ. He's not really ready yet, and you're wasting Christ's time.

Apologetics are most effective for people who already accept Christ but have questions.
 
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jimmyjimmy

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All minute old foetuses. Case closed.

Do all of these sinless fetuses remain sinless? If not, why not?

Also, you have limited, righteousness", to it's negative. You only speak of it in terms of *not* sinning. Are you aware that obedience to God's law is framed in a positive? Love God and love neighbor.
 
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TheSeabass

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Surely I was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me.
David did NOT say he was sinful at birth, the NIV horribly perverts the underlying Hebrew putting words into David's mouth he never said.

David said in sin did my mother conceive me.

Being conceived in sin is not the same as being born a sinner.

--the context shows leading up to verse 5 that David is NOT talking about any sin he inherited from Adam, but is seeking forgiveness of his own sin he committed with Bathsheba. Yet the NIV tries to change the verse from a sin David actively chose to commit with Bathsheba to him passively being born a sinner against his will making David a victim of sin rather than being responsible for sin he committed.

--David said he was shapen "in iniquity" and "in sin" did my mother conceive me. The bible clearly speaks on the fact the world is full of iniquity and sin and David was simply saying he was shapened and conceived in a sinful world. Everyone is born into a sinful environment of the world. Similar language is used in Acts 2:8. This verse does not mean they were born speaking a language but they were born into an environment where a particular language was spoken and they in time learned that language themselves. Likewise all are born into a sinful world and in time learn right from wrong and choose to sin.

--Psalms 139:14 "I will praise thee; for I am fearfully and wonderfully made: marvellous are thy works; and that my soul knoweth right well."
David was not praising God because God made him a lost sinful, vile unforgiven reprobate.

--Psalms 22:9-10 "But thou art he that took me out of the womb; Thou didst make me trust when I was upon my mother’s breasts. I was cast upon thee from the womb; Thou art my God since my mother bare me. " The NIV renders this passage essentially the same. So was David a lost, vile reprobate sinner at birth as the NIV claims in Psa 51:5 or was David trusting God at birth? Lost sinners are not trusting in God.

--John said sin is transgression of the law. At conception, what law did David transgress making him a sinner? None, at conception as a fertilized egg he was not capable of transgressing.

--the NIV's forced wrong interpretation of Psa 51:5 contradicts a host of verses (as Eccl 7:29) that show infants are not passively born sinners against their will but are born innocent having done no good or bad Rom 9:11.
 
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TheSeabass

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Nope. If you're going to take that viewpoint, then none of the Psalms are applicable to anyone other than the original Psalmist.

Among them we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest.

1) Eph 2:1 ASV "And you did he make alive, when ye were dead through your trespasses and sins,"
They were dead due to "your" sins. They were not dead for Adam's sin but their own sins they chose to commit

2) the word "nature" carries the idea of "a mode of feeling and acting which by long habit has become nature" Strong's G5449. When one habitually practices some thing, as sin, for a long period of time, it becomes part of his nature due the habitual practice. The context show those Ephesians habitually practiced sin for so long it became part of their nature. They habitually "walked according to the course of this world" and "had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh". Their being children of wrath was due to their own habitual practice of sinning and not to how they were born against their will.

3) "...and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others." This verb "were" is middle voice, imperfect tense:

"It is also significant that the verb is in the middle voice in the Greek Testament. The middle voice is employed to suggest the subject’s personal involvement in the action of the verb. The language therefore stresses that the sinful condition of the Ephesians had been their individual responsibility.

Hence, combining the imperfect tense and middle voice aspects of the verb, we might paraphrase the passage thusly: “you kept on making yourselves children of wrath.”
Are Infants "by Nature" Children of Wrath?
 
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TheSeabass

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There is a conflation in this thread of several things that are not the same, different concepts.

"Righteousness" is imputed by God through faith. Nobody has his own inherent righteousness. Nobody is born righteous. Nobody becomes righteous by actions of his own devising. Righteousness is a pronouncement by God for the reason that He chooses.

No one is born having inherited another person's righteousness no more than one is born inheriting another person's unrighteousness.

One is a sinner for he chooses to sin.
One is righteous for he chooses to obey God's righteousness/commandments.

Neither righteousness or unrighteousness is inherited but what the individual chooses to do.
 
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TheSeabass

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If it's hyperbole, please produce a righteous person.

---There were those in the OT said to be righteous as Abel (Hebrews 11:4) Noah and Abraham.
Paul may have been employing the term 'righteous" in the perfect since> there is none perfectly righteous, ie, none perfectly sinless.

In Psalms 14 David speaks of two groups, those that do not seek God and do no good verses 1-3 and those that are righteous verse 5. Even though some men are said to be righteous they were not righteous in the perfect, sinless sense.

---the language used in Rom 10 shows
1)Paul is not talking about infants but mature adults who know right from wrong and choose to commit sin.
2) Paul says men go out of the way become unprofitable and NOT born out of the way born unprofitable. So Paul is not talking about how men are men are born but what men choose to become.
3) verse 19 shows those OT verses are being directed specifically at the group Jews and not every single person. Paul is proving from their own OT law given them they are sinners and no better than the Gentiles.
4) all those under the OT law were 'under sin' for that law provided no way for them to be completely justified. Yet under the NT thru Christ men can be freed from sin Rom 6:17-18.
 
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TheSeabass

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Condemnation by representation.
Yet the bible says sin is transgression of the law, not one is sinner for just being born.

If no transgression takes place no sin exist. Therefore the newly formed fetus must commit a transgression for it to be a sinner.
 
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Small Fish

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Yet the bible says sin is transgression of the law, not one is sinner for just being born.

If no transgression takes place no sin exist. Therefore the newly formed fetus must commit a transgression for it to be a sinner.
Then why did Jesus had to come by virgin birth? If it was not to bypass that process?
 
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