Are babies unrighteousness?

RDKirk

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It sounds like an epiphany. Do you remember some point in your life when you can say that from that point on you knew right from wrong? My life is half over and I'm not convinced I know all of it, but I really don't remember any point where I can say I reached some manner of threshold where I knew enough about right and wrong to go to Hell. It was always a gradual progression for me, and not always forward, and it never stopped.

Just give me a best guess. About how old were you when you think you learned enough to go to Hell.



It's the exception that proves the rule. Someone on this forum said that fetuses can't have faith, because they've never heard the gospel. I don't intend to prove that John the Baptist was the rule, or even commonplace. I only intend to show that the opposite claim is not the rule. It takes repeated examples to prove an absolute rule, but only one example to disprove it.



Ironically, someone gave you the "winner" badge for that one. Funny.



That makes perfect sense. However, for what is the fetus being condemned?

At some very early point, I said "no" to the person I yet went to for food.

I'm not sure when that was for me, but I know it was about 8 months old for my children, and I suspect they were thinking it long before they had the physical control to manifest their intentions physically enough for me to recognize.
 
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RDKirk

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Righteousness is the absence of accountable sin, otherwise you have a standard that is impossible to achieve, by means of knowledge, cognisance and will, for babies, the handicapped and brainwashed.

Where did you get that definition from?

God made Him who had no sin to be sin for us, so that in Him we might become the righteousness of God.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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John 21:22
Jesus said to him, “If it is my will that he remain until I come, what is that to you? You follow me!”

Jesus told Peter, essentially, to mind his own business. I have a feeling that if fetuses could read, then we wouldn't be having this discussion.

Jeremiah 1:5
“Before I formed you in the womb I knew you, and before you were born I consecrated you; I appointed you a prophet to the nations.”

In this verse, God made a lot of decisions about Jeremiah even before he was born. I guess there was no question that he might have decided to rebel and live as a sinner, going to Hell. It's like the verse about John the Baptist, where we see evidence against the idea of a person's salvation or anointing being a thing decided after birth, at some point where the person makes that arbitrary decision of faith. (Psst! Small Fish! I found another one!)

So based on that logic, Christians should be great promoters of abortion, since using that logic is the greatest Heaven filling device there is. (Which is complete nonsense.)

Yep. I had been preaching the "age of accountability" explanation for the first part of my life. I didn't stop and question my position until I debated with an abortionist. That person's retort was that she was sending babies to Heaven, and that she ought to kill more of them. It gave me pause. I don't say that anymore. I'm afraid to.

There was a woman who made national news a few years back for killing all of her kids. She said she believed that she was protecting them. She was a professing Christian. The oldest of them was just about to hit that "age of accountability." She didn't say what she was protecting them from. Most people thought she was crazy. Did she just guarantee them a place in Heaven? It's dark, dark road that ought not to be traveled....
 
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Small Fish

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It sounds like an epiphany. Do you remember some point in your life when you can say that from that point on you knew right from wrong? My life is half over and I'm not convinced I know all of it, but I really don't remember any point where I can say I reached some manner of threshold where I knew enough about right and wrong to go to Hell. It was always a gradual progression for me, and not always forward, and it never stopped.

Just give me a best guess. About how old were you when you think you learned enough to go to Hell.



It's the exception that proves the rule. Someone on this forum said that fetuses can't have faith, because they've never heard the gospel. I don't intend to prove that John the Baptist was the rule, or even commonplace. I only intend to show that the opposite claim is not the rule. It takes repeated examples to prove an absolute rule, but only one example to disprove it.



Ironically, someone gave you the "winner" badge for that one. Funny.



That makes perfect sense. However, for what is the fetus being condemned?
Either way, you need to be born again. That's because your first birth is wrong. Your nature is wrong and not compatible with the Kingdom of God. I actually don't see why this is a issue. It's a simple principle. A baby is not righteous, he is born in sin by lust. We bypassed our theophanies. That is why Jesus had to be born virgin birth, no sex, not through lust but by faith, starting with the Spirit and not lust. Whatever is born of flesh is flesh and whatever is born of spirit is spirit. No wonder Jesus said if you can't even understand or believe the earthly things then how will you understand the heavenly things? Being born of the spirit is only the beginning, your not even on first base yet if you're not born again.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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I actually don't see why this is a issue. It's a simple principle. A baby is not righteous, he is born in sin by lust.

Original sin is a fundamental Christian principle, and I certainly won't argue against it. Would you argue, then, that babies go to Hell? Some say that all babies go to Heaven, because they have not had a chance to sin. Some say that all babies go to Hell, because they have not had a chance to believe and be saved. The first sees sin as an act. The second sees sin as a state of being.

It seems strange to me that an entire group of people would be wholly destined to Heaven or Hell, when the whole rest of the human population is divided between one or the other.
 
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Small Fish

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Original sin is a fundamental Christian principle, and I certainly won't argue against it. Would you argue, then, that babies go to Hell? Some say that all babies go to Heaven, because they have not had a chance to sin. Some say that all babies go to Hell, because they have not had a chance to believe and be saved. The first sees sin as an act. The second sees sin as a state of being.

It seems strange to me that an entire group of people would be wholly destined to Heaven or Hell, when the whole rest of the human population is divided between one or the other.
As I said various times in my previous posts, they go to heaven but not on their own merits, but because of what Christ did. Jesus died to save the world and make ammends. He stands in for them. But after we come to accountability or where we can make our own decisions concerning these things we must accept the gospel for ourselves.
 
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JoeP222w

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That makes perfect sense. However, for what is the fetus being condemned?

Not all babies are automatically saved. If they are saved, it is because of the election of God to the individual baby due to God's grace alone. If they are the non-elect, they are condemned because of their Adamic (sin) nature. Man's default position is that of already being condemned before God does the work of grace. Individuals are elected to salvation by God, but they are not elected to condemnation, because that latter state is the natural position of man because of the fall of Adam.

We don't know who the elect are.
 
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JoeP222w

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She was a professing Christian.

There is a world of difference between one who professes to be a Christian and walks in absolute contradiction to what the word of God teaches. Nowhere in scripture are we commanded to kill our children to "protect" them. That is absurd.
 
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nonaeroterraqueous

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Not all babies are automatically saved. If they are saved, it is because of the election of God to the individual baby due to God's grace alone.

That's the infrequently-mentioned third option. I've heard it referred to as salvation from eternity. It still suffers from the problem of people being saved without hearing the gospel and believing, being baptized, or anything, but that's the conundrum behind this whole thread, anyway. I won't lie to you. I am a Calvinist. I'm not going to pretend I disagree with you and spend all day arguing against you.

Even so, like I said earlier, I'm not trying to make a point, here. I just want to see how thoroughly people have developed their ideas on this.

There is a world of difference between one who professes to be a Christian and walks in absolute contradiction to what the word of God teaches. Nowhere in scripture are we commanded to kill our children to "protect" them. That is absurd.

I never said I agreed with it. The action was blamed on postpartum depression, but the thinking behind it might have stemmed from the idea of an age of accountability. She said she was protecting them. That idea has bugged me for years.

As I said various times in my previous posts, they go to heaven but not on their own merits, but because of what Christ did...But after we come to accountability or where we can make our own decisions concerning these things we must accept the gospel for ourselves.

I thought that was your position, but I got a little confused when I went over your previous posts to try to figure out where you were coming from. You were condemning babies as sinners, but you were saying that they're all saved. I got a little cognitive dissonance from that one, and I hope you'll understand why. It sounds like you're saying that God imposes his own decision upon them, which sounds exactly like the doctrine of election (Calvinism), except that it's applied indiscriminately to all. You'll probably find me obtuse for saying it, but why would God apply salvation universally, indiscriminately, to all babies against their will, when we both know that God has every ability to distinguish between them? Had they lived, the outcome would not have been universal. We, as humans, might make the decision to treat all babies the same, because we don't know any better, but it seems strange to me that God would make a blanket decision like that. Blanket decisions are usually a way to cover for the unknown.
 
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Lee Stuvmen

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Romans 4:3
For what saith the scripture?

Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.


1 Corinthians 7
12 But to the rest speak I, not the Lord: If any brother hath a wife that believeth not, and she be pleased to dwell with him, let him not put her away.

13 And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him.

14 For the unbelieving husband is sanctified by the wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified by the husband: else were your children unclean; but now are they holy.
 
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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.
If righteousness comes from morality and keeping the law then all are innocent until they reach the ability to act as moral agents. Unfortunately by the works of the law no flesh will be justified!

Therefore they are born unholy. And it is God's grace than brings them and holds them in relationship until they have the ability to make a freewill choice.
 
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Blade

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Well not to get.. anyway.. we tend to look at sinner.. by the SIN one does :) Yes.. babies are not righteous in anyway what so ever. Blind...yes. Well Jesus said..if you were blind you would have no sin. you say you see your sin remains. We all were born into sin. There is no way around this. So a baby is blind so to speak till some point..yet.. this can be till your very old.. I mean.. how many people in this world NEVER heard of Jesus.. cant be held to answer for something they never heard of.. so blind they are..

So.. as the word says.. for us right now to be "righteous" is as the word says.. we believe in JESUS.. just doing that..we are now in right standing with the Father.. aka righteousness. It comes NO other way. One can walk this earth and never sin.. yet BORN into sin you were. And if one does not know JESUS then satan.. is our father. Its one of the other. That being said.. still not righteous.. yet.. one can not be judged on a truth they never heard. WHAT all happens there.. is not written. But.. if you were blind you would have no sin..you say you see your sin reamins..is written. Now Jesus also said "if I had not come and spoken they would have? No sin. Hmm seems something is there.

This is talking about the heart. Of which and PRAISE GOD only HE reads and knows. If it was left up to me . I might be the only righteous alive! haha just playing sorry
 
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toLiJC

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romans 3:10 quotes "None is righteousness, no not one" but that would have to include the 5 minute old foetus as well as the murder. What does this mean, or is it a bad translation?

No one seeks God, no one understands. It just sounds like hyperbole.

every person is born pure/innocent, which is why Jesus says in John 9:1-3 that no person is guilty of sin from their birth

Blessings
 
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TheSeabass

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If righteousness comes from morality and keeping the law then all are innocent until they reach the ability to act as moral agents. Unfortunately by the works of the law no flesh will be justified!

Therefore they are born unholy. And it is God's grace than brings them and holds them in relationship until they have the ability to make a freewill choice.

When Paul said "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God..' (Galatians 3:11) he was talking about the OT law of Moses. Under that law they did not have the blood of Christ to totally, completely remit all sins whereby one could stand before God justified The only way (theoretically) that OT law allowed one to be totally justified was through flawless law keeping. Since sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) therefore if one did not transgress the law he would have no sin and be just before God. Yet the Jew would eventually sin leading Paul to say what he did in Gal 3:11.

From Romans 9:11 infants have done no good or evil, they have done no righteousness nor any transgression therefore they are in a neutral, innocent state before God therefore it is impossible for them to be born a sinner.
 
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TheSeabass

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Well not to get.. anyway.. we tend to look at sinner.. by the SIN one does :) Yes.. babies are not righteous in anyway what so ever. Blind...yes. Well Jesus said..if you were blind you would have no sin. you say you see your sin remains. We all were born into sin. There is no way around this. So a baby is blind so to speak till some point..yet.. this can be till your very old.. I mean.. how many people in this world NEVER heard of Jesus.. cant be held to answer for something they never heard of.. so blind they are..

1) post "We all were born into sin." which I agree with that. This is what David is saying in Psalms 51:5 in that the world is a place full of iniquity and sin and we are all born into that sinful environment.

Since sin is transgression of the law, and the newly conceived (zygote) has not, cannot is unable to transgress the law, he has done no evil Romans 9:11 thereby making him innocent being without sin.

2) you post "how many people in this world NEVER heard of Jesus.. cant be held to answer for something they never heard of.. so blind they are.." Men will be held accountable for their sins they committed and not for whether they heard the gospel or not. 2 Thessalonians 1:8 tells us what happens to those that "know not God".
 
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When Paul said "But that no man is justified by the law in the sight of God..' (Galatians 3:11) he was talking about the OT law of Moses. Under that law they did not have the blood of Christ to totally, completely remit all sins whereby one could stand before God justified The only way (theoretically) that OT law allowed one to be totally justified was through flawless law keeping. Since sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4) therefore if one did not transgress the law he would have no sin and be just before God. Yet the Jew would eventually sin leading Paul to say what he did in Gal 3:11.

From Romans 9:11 infants have done no good or evil, they have done no righteousness nor any transgression therefore they are in a neutral, innocent state before God therefore it is impossible for them to be born a sinner.
But your argument only holds if there is not a universal moral defect known as original sin. A defect that is transferred to all humans from birth. scriptural phrases like , "Born in sin," suggest otherwise.

We can argue that inference. I currently hold to the concept of original sin.

Therefore, I see it as God's grace that he pardons those who have not reached a cognative level that enables freedom to choose.

Alternatively he could judge them by what they would do in the future given that obtained that freedom, if God has middle-knowledge of counterfactuals as molinists suggest.
 
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Since sin is transgression of the law,

This is the narrowing part. Why think that this encompasses the sum total of unrighteousness in man (or babies). It could be that your argument is reducing the scriptural data leading to a false conclusion.
 
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TheSeabass

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But your argument only holds if there is not a universal moral defect known as original sin. A defect that is transferred to all humans from birth. scriptural phrases like , "Born in sin," suggest otherwise.

We can argue that inference. I currently hold to the concept of original sin.

Therefore, I see it as God's grace that he pardons those who have not reached a cognative level that enables freedom to choose.

Alternatively he could judge them by what they would do in the future given that obtained that freedom, if God has middle-knowledge of counterfactuals as molinists suggest.


You post "A defect that is transferred to all humans from birth" Yet nowhere ever does the bible define sin a some substance or idea that is transferred from one person to another. The bible says sin is transgression of the law (1 John 3:4). If no transgression occurred then no sin happened making the idea of original sin a biblical impossibility.


You post "born is sin"
"Born is sin" is NOT the same thing as being "born a sinner". The NIV and others try to change what David said.

You post "God's grace that he pardons those who have not reached a cognative level that enables freedom to choose."
1) since sin is transgression of the law, and a fetus cannot transgress the law he cannot possibley be a sinner.
2) God does not forgive sinners unconditionally. For sinners to be forgiven they must believe John 3:16 repent Luke 13:3 confess Mt 10:32-33 and be baptized for remission of sins Acts 2:38. Therefore if infants are born sinners and die as an infant they would be lost not being able to do what is required to receive God's forgiveness/mercy/grace.
3) In Romans 7:8-9 Paul says without law sin is dead, and Paul was once alive without the law which means there was a time in Paul's life sin had no power over him, sin was dead to him as an infant being without law. So there is no sin to be found in the infant for God to forgive when the infant is without law and sin is dead to the infant. Sin was not with Paul at birth but was something that 'sprang up' in him later in life when he matured and had the cognitive skills to know right from wrong and understand God's law.
 
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TheSeabass

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This is the narrowing part. Why think that this encompasses the sum total of unrighteousness in man (or babies). It could be that your argument is reducing the scriptural data leading to a false conclusion.

Nowhere ever does the bible define sin as something inherited thru genes of DNA that is passed one from another. Nowhere does the bile ever say sin is a substance as bacteria that is transmitted one to another no does the bible ever define sin simply as an idea that is passed one from another. Original sin therefore cannot possibly be biblical for sin does not exist until a transgression occurs and each person is responsible for his/her own choice in choosing to commit transgressions and not another person transgression.
 
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Nowhere ever does the bible define sin as something inherited thru genes of DNA that is passed one from another. Nowhere does the bile ever say sin is a substance as bacteria that is transmitted one to another no does the bible ever define sin simply as an idea that is passed one from another. Original sin therefore cannot possibly be biblical for sin does not exist until a transgression occurs and each person is responsible for his/her own choice in choosing to commit transgressions and not another person transgression.
When you extend an argument to the rediculous, "Sin is something inherited through genes of DNA," or, "Sin is a substance transmitted as bacteria," and then attack the rediculousness (of your own making) this approach to argument is known as a straw man logical fallacy.

Now it is easy to gain rhetorical points by deploying these types of fallacies given that A: Your audience is unfamiliar with scripture (which doesn't seem like a good assumption), and B: Your audience is unfamiliar with logic and logical fallacy, (which again doesn't seem like a good assumption).

Now original sin was a concept discussed since the beginning of the epistles. We can argue as to its truth-value but let's not misrepresent the claims of scripture with straw men.

Psalm 51:5 states that we all come into the world as sinners: “Behold, I was brought forth in iniquity, and in sin my mother conceived me.” Ephesians 2:2says that all people who are not in Christ are “sons of disobedience.” Ephesians 2:3 also establishes this, saying that we are all “by nature children of wrath.” If we are all “by nature children of wrath,” it can only be because we are all by nature sinners — for God does not direct His wrath towards those who are not guilty. God did not create the human race sinful, but upright. But we fell into sin and became sinful due to the sin of Adam.

Scripture speaks of humans as unrighteous from infancy
There are also verses which declare that we are all unrighteous from the time that we are born. Proverbs 22:15 says “Foolishness is bound up in the heart of a child.” Genesis 8:21 declares, “. . . the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth.” Jonathan Edwards, in his classic work The Great Christian Doctrine of Original Sin Defended, remarks that on this verse: “The word translated youth, signifies the whole of the former part of the age of man, which commences from the beginning of life. The word in its derivation, has reference to the birth or beginning of existence . . . so that the word here translated youth, comprehends not only what we in English most commonly call the time of youth, but also childhood and infancy.”

A lot more work has to be done by you and others to demonstrated that dozens of passages in both Old and New Testaments were exegeted improperly. And church fathers both ante and post-nicene, were mistaken. Catholicism and Protestantism in the main have missed the meaning as well. I am willing to engage the evidence but mountains have to be moved here.
 
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