Heaven

dreadnought said:

Okay, folks, I believe you will find this to be true: We are in heaven but because we sin, we suffer. That is why Jesus “suggested” we stop sinning:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

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Yes, but no one is an island, or alone on an island, and unless we do it all collectively, it is still possible and I would say one would suffer even more, by the sin around, assuming, that, even if one could quit sinning themselves on their own...

And that, I believe is part of the problem, most of us try to do it with our self-effort instead of God effort, and fail miserably with sin, even when they (some of them, being deceived) are not thinking they are failing miserably...

What happens most often with the self-effort approach is we trade sins we can see for ones we cannot see, and Satan loves to do this with people BTW, to make them be deluded into thinking their sinless, when they only traded sin they could see, for sins they are blind to... Satan loves that...

Or instead of trading sins, keeping you blinded by only allowing you to become only partially aware of your sins, so the sins you commit that you started out being blind to, and continue to blind to, and become unaware of, to keep you unaware of them, so they will carry over from when you only thought you repented of "all" of your sin, to continue in blindness to the sins that you blind to afterward also, so you'll think your good and holy and righteous, when you are not cause you still sin, but are blind to it, and get a puffed up holier than thou, better than others, attitude, in your thinking yourself sinless, and that is mainly, the main sins, most are blind to...

And you will only truly be able to be truly completely sinless when it is "in the cards" or in God's destiny for us, and he does decide to destine very many in this, therefore, sin may not even be the most important issue, but "Love" "is"... Many can love, but few can be sinless...

God Bless!

Neogaia777 said:

Yes, but no one is an island, or alone on an island, and unless we do it all collectively, it is still possible and I would say one would suffer even more, by the sin around, assuming, that, even if one could quit sinning themselves on their own...

And that, I believe is part of the problem, most of us try to do it with our self-effort instead of God effort, and fail miserably with sin, even when they (some of them, being deceived) are not thinking they are failing miserably...

What happens most often with the self-effort approach is we trade sins we can see for ones we cannot see, and Satan loves to do this with people BTW, to make them be deluded into thinking their sinless, when they only traded sin they could see, for sins they are blind to... Satan loves that...

Or instead of trading sins, keeping you blinded by only allowing you to become only partially aware of your sins, so the sins you commit that you started out being blind to, and continue to blind to, and become unaware of, to keep you unaware of them, so they will carry over from when you only thought you repented of "all" of your sin, to continue in blindness to the sins that you blind to afterward also, so you'll think your good and holy and righteous, when you are not cause you still sin, but are blind to it, and get a puffed up holier than thou, better than others, attitude, in your thinking yourself sinless, and that is mainly, the main sins, most are blind to...

And you will only truly be able to be truly completely sinless when it is "in the cards" or in God's destiny for us, and he does decide to destine very many in this, therefore, sin may not even be the most important issue, but "Love" "is"... Many can love, but few can be sinless...

God Bless!

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We 99.9% of us, can only truly become sinless, especially collectively as a whole, we can only truly do this, only, only if, God does it all, and not us...

And he plans on it, were just not there yet...

But, we try, or when we try, to do it, we take the wheel or rudder away from him, and we even become our own God, we have to yield and relinquish control to him in our lives and not be taking it away from him, and we may not become sinless when we do, but we will Love much more, and only when we become fully grown and mature in Love, will we have the fruit from the root of Love, of repentance or the ability, only after full maturity in Love of becoming sinless...

Neogaia777 said:

Yes, but no one is an island, or alone on an island, and unless we do it all collectively, it is still possible and I would say one would suffer even more, by the sin around, assuming, that, even if one could quit sinning themselves on their own...

And that, I believe is part of the problem, most of us try to do it with our self-effort instead of God effort, and fail miserably with sin, even when they (some of them, being deceived) are not thinking they are failing miserably...

What happens most often with the self-effort approach is we trade sins we can see for ones we cannot see, and Satan loves to do this with people BTW, to make them be deluded into thinking their sinless, when they only traded sin they could see, for sins they are blind to... Satan loves that...

Or instead of trading sins, keeping you blinded by only allowing you to become only partially aware of your sins, so the sins you commit that you started out being blind to, and continue to blind to, and become unaware of, to keep you unaware of them, so they will carry over from when you only thought you repented of "all" of your sin, to continue in blindness to the sins that you blind to afterward also, so you'll think your good and holy and righteous, when you are not cause you still sin, but are blind to it, and get a puffed up holier than thou, better than others, attitude, in your thinking yourself sinless, and that is mainly, the main sins, most are blind to...

And you will only truly be able to be truly completely sinless when it is "in the cards" or in God's destiny for us, and he does decide to destine very many in this, therefore, sin may not even be the most important issue, but "Love" "is"... Many can love, but few can be sinless...

God Bless!

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About no one being an island, we could, or if an individual could completely do away with sin, it would not last long once off or away from the island...

It will take collective God effort to save us, their is no other way...

dreadnought said:

Okay, folks, I believe you will find this to be true: We are in heaven but because we sin, we suffer. That is why Jesus “suggested” we stop sinning:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

Click to expand...

then why are babies born without legs, feet, arms, with their hearts on the outside of their body.. stillborn... whooping cough where die still very young... ect ect.. what is that childs sin? why is it that in revelations the elements will melt? 2 Peter 3:10 god destroyed heaven where he dwells and earth is his footstool? Isaiah 66:1 no.. because there is no sin in heaven.. Revelation 21:27 if heaven is here where why was satan cast down to earth Revelation 12:9 why did jesus say pray like this... your will be done on earth as it is in heaven? Matthew 6:10 because they ARE separate places... if jesus already rules in heaven (not earth).. why must he come back??? Matthew 28:18 /// Luke 18:8 who is the ruler of earth? 2 Corinthians 4:4 if satan is the god of this world... how is this heaven? its not... there is a divide..

dreadnought said:

Okay, folks, I believe you will find this to be true: We are in heaven but because we sin, we suffer. That is why Jesus “suggested” we stop sinning:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

Click to expand...

Jesus is in heaven, yet we are in Jesus. If we are in Jesus, where are we?

AlexDTX said:

Jesus is in heaven, yet we are in Jesus. If we are in Jesus, where are we?

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if that is how you would equate it.. where are we when he returns?

dreadnought said:

Okay, folks, I believe you will find this to be true: We are in heaven but because we sin, we suffer. That is why Jesus “suggested” we stop sinning:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

Click to expand...

The kingdom of God is a spiritual kingdom on Earth but it's not heaven. It's almost like a state of mind. He said in his fathers house would be many manshions and you walk in these once you get saved and enter the kingdom of God. Also Jesus lets us know not one has been in new heaven yet in scripture as well.

A wonderful explanation of the meaning of living in "the kingdom of God" in this life.

(Side note - His book Divine Conspiracy deeply enriched my understanding and walk of faith. I recommend it to everyone.)

dreadnought said:

I am saying that we are here, but if we obey the commandments of the Lord, we will also be in heaven, because heaven is not a place - it is what our lives turn into when we repent of our sin (obey the Lord's commandments).

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Uh.... that's one of the most unique views I've ever heard. What about the verses that gives new Jerusalem an exact measurement of about 1,500 square miles? If it's not a location then why measure it?
Revelation 21:15-17King James Version (KJV)
15 And he that talked with me had a golden reed to measure the city, and the gates thereof, and the wall thereof.

16 And the city lieth foursquare, and the length is as large as the breadth: and he measured the city with the reed, twelve thousand furlongs. The length and the breadth and the height of it are equal.

17 And he measured the wall thereof, an hundred and forty and four cubits, according to the measure of a man, that is, of the angel.

dreadnought said:

I'm not afraid to being unique. Only unique people find the gate.

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That is true the Bible mentions narrow is the way and this verse indicates that by the size itself... but that's my point why deny that it's a location if it's measured

alhaynes86 said:

if that is how you would equate it.. where are we when he returns?

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It is our spirit that is in heaven since we are joined to his Spirit through the new birth.

1Co 6:17 But he that is joined unto the Lord is one spirit.

When Jesus returns physically, our bodies will be changed in the twinkling of an eye into the glory that He already has (1 Cor. 15:52).

So the answer to the OP is that we are already in heaven by our spirits, but still on Earth by our bodies.

dreadnought said:

Then how do you explain "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt 4:17)?

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You still didn't answer my question. But I mean the kingdom of God is like being in heaven at least in the spiritual sense. You have the fruit of the spirit when your saved such as peace and joy even though the world itself lacks those things. So for me that verse is referring to the kingdom of God Jesus seems to emphasize how this kingdom is like heaven on Earth he's not saying it is heaven though. In fact the Bible says the location of heaven itself has no pain, that is never stated to be the case with this kingdom that a saved person can walk in on Earth. In fact Jesus even says think not they I am come to bring peace on earth, and the Bible lets us know that they that live godly will suffer persecution, which involves pain and sadness which the Bible says heaven doesn't have. The kingdom of God or heaven on Earth isn't the new heaven those that are saved can go to when he returns.

dreadnought said:

Then how do you explain "the kingdom of heaven is at hand" (Matt 4:17)?

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Jesus did not mean to imply we are already in heaven. The idea He was trying to get across to the people was that the kingdom of heaven was near. In other words, the Day of judgment is closer to you than you think, and you need to get right with God. Time is running out. Stop playing games. Repent.

Matthew 7:21 NKJV: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Notice how Jesus says, "shall enter the kingdom of heaven". This tells us that this event is yet future, that we aren't there yet. He also says the Father is "in heaven". In other words, heaven is a real place where God is, and if we want to be there with Him, then we must do His will.

Matthew 7:22-23 NKJV "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

Jesus is making it clear that not all who say they are His followers are speaking the truth. In other words, there are fakes out there. They look religious, and use the name of Jesus; yet, they don't have a relationship with Him.

Jesus also speaks of a coming day when this will happen. Which day is He referring to? The day of the harvest when the wheat will be separated from the tares—the Day of judgment.

Matthew 13:30 NKJV "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

John 5:28-29 NKJV "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

This has not yet happened; therefore, we are not in heaven. But we should prepare our hearts for heaven by getting right with God; for the day of God's wrath is drawing nearer day by day.

woobadooba said:

Jesus did not mean to imply we are already in heaven. The idea He was trying to get across to the people was that the kingdom of heaven was near. In other words, the Day of judgment is closer to you than you think, and you need to get right with God. Time is running out. Stop playing games. Repent.

Matthew 7:21 NKJV: "Not everyone who says to Me, 'Lord, Lord,' shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father in heaven."

Notice how Jesus says, "shall enter the kingdom of heaven". This tells us that this event is yet future, that we aren't there yet. He also says the Father is "in heaven". In other words, heaven is where God is, and if we want to be there with Him, then we need to do His will.

Matthew 7:22-23 NKJV "Many will say to Me in that day, 'Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?' And then I will declare to them, 'I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!'"

Jesus is making it clear that not all who say they are His followers are speaking the truth. In other words, there are fakes out there. They look religious, and use the name of Jesus; yet, they don't have a relationship with Him.

Jesus also speaks of a coming day when this will happen. Which day is He referring to? The Day of judgment, the day of harvest when the wheat will be separated from the tares.

Matthew 13:30 NKJV "Let both grow together until the harvest, and at the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, "First gather together the tares and bind them in bundles to burn them, but gather the wheat into my barn."

1 Thessalonians 4:16-17 NKJV "For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord."

John 5:28-29 NKJV "Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming in which all who are in the graves will hear His voice and come forth— those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of condemnation."

This has not yet happened; therefore, we are not in heaven. But we should prepare our hearts for heaven by getting right with God; for the day of God's wrath is drawing nearer day by day.

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That's another way to look at it and the other view I've been considering myself. It matches certian scriptures such as the one you mentioned where he mentions not everyone who says lord lord, scriptures that clearly point towards heaven being the new Jerusalem