Heaven

[dreadnought]

So did I, and I don't see angels flying all around me and death still exist.

Jesus showed us death isn't real.

 

[friend of]

And he said to them, "Truly, I say to you, there are some standing here who will not taste death before they see that the kingdom of God has come with power." Mark 9:1 RSV

Right, kingdom of GOD can be experienced here within the believer. Kingdom of Heaven is the actual heaven that will be created when God destroys this world and throws death itself into the lake of fire.

 

[friend of]

Our experience of the Kingdom of God here and now isn't what it will be in the Kingdom of Heaven. It will be far beyond our comprehension of it now.

1 Corinthians 2:9

 

[dreadnought]

Right, kingdom of GOD can be experienced here within the believer. Kingdom of Heaven is the actual heaven that will be created when God destroys this world and throws death itself into the lake of fire.

Why do you believe that?

 

[dreadnought]

Our experience of the Kingdom of God here and now isn't what it will be in the Kingdom of Heaven. It will be far beyond our comprehension of it now.

1 Corinthians 2:9

I'm sure when we die, we will be transported to a truly beautiful place. Still, it will be of no value if we don't have peace of mind.

 

[friend of]

Right but those who do not have peace of mind through good conscience toward Christ will certainly not enter Heaven.

And Christians with anxieties in this life will have them purged by Christ's love in the next life.

1 Corinthians 15:52

 

[dreadnought]

Right but those who do not have peace of mind through good conscience toward Christ will certainly not enter Heaven.

And Christians with anxieties in this life will have them purged by Christ's love in the next life.

1 Corinthians 15:52

We have been commanded by our Lord not to have anxieties in this life.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

We are in heaven but because we sin, we suffer.

You might not have meant it this way, but, grammatically, you just stated that sin and suffering exist in Heaven.

You might not think you are in heaven but I think you will learn differently.

You might think you are encouraging people by telling them that this is Heaven, but the truth is that you've put a cap on a person's expectations. This is it. This is the best that you can hope for. This is that great paradise called Heaven. The despondent soul reads this and thinks there's nothing better to hope for. You may call Heaven a state of mind, but you're really calling it unreal.

 

[dreadnought]

You might not have meant it this way, but, grammatically, you just stated that sin and suffering exist in Heaven.

 

[dreadnought]

You might not have meant it this way, but, grammatically, you just stated that sin and suffering exist in Heaven.



You might think you are encouraging people by telling them that this is Heaven, but the truth is that you've put a cap on a person's expectations. This is it. This is the best that you can hope for. This is that great paradise called Heaven. The despondent soul reads this and thinks there's nothing better to hope for. You may call Heaven a state of mind, but you're really calling it unreal.

If you define heaven as a place, then heaven can be anywhere (including here and now) if we repent of our sin. But I normally define heaven as "what our lives turn in to when we repent of our sin."

 

[dreadnought]

You might not have meant it this way, but, grammatically, you just stated that sin and suffering exist in Heaven.



You might think you are encouraging people by telling them that this is Heaven, but the truth is that you've put a cap on a person's expectations. This is it. This is the best that you can hope for. This is that great paradise called Heaven. The despondent soul reads this and thinks there's nothing better to hope for. You may call Heaven a state of mind, but you're really calling it unreal.

No. I'm telling people that if they repent of their sin, their life will be transformed into something indescribably beautiful. You don't have to die first. That is good news, not bad news.

 

[friend of]

No. I'm telling people that if they repent of their sin, their life will be transformed into something indescribably beautiful.

I fully agree that when sin is removed from our lives we experience living the way God wants us to live...

...but no one is guaranteed freedom from trials and tribulations in this fallen world just by living upright in God's sight. I'm reminded of the book of Job for instance.

 

[friend of]

tl;dr

The present nature of this world remains in a fallen state and this state will only be transformed when Christ returns. Only Lord Jesus has the power to change this world into what God originally desired in Genesis.

 

[dreadnought]

I fully agree that when sin is removed from our lives we experience living the way God wants us to live...

...but no one is guaranteed freedom from trials and tribulations in this fallen world just by living upright in God's sight. I'm reminded of the book of Job for instance.

But with a clear conscience, trials and tribulations don't amount to much.

 

[dreadnought]

tl;dr

The present nature of this world remains in a fallen state and this state will only be transformed when Christ returns. Only Lord Jesus has the power to change this world into what God originally desired in Genesis.

Jesus is in our lives now leading us to peace of mind.

 

[Robert76]

Okay, folks, I believe you will find this to be true: We are in heaven but because we sin, we suffer. That is why Jesus “suggested” we stop sinning:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

I've heard it said (I don't believe this is directly from scripture) that we become citizens of heaven and have begun eternity as a citizen of heaven at the moment of salvation. That said, John 13:36 (ESV) does say:

Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward."

To me, this points to heaven being a separate and most real place, but like Simon Peter when Jesus said these words to him, we are not there yet.

 

[dreadnought]

I've heard it said (I don't believe this is directly from scripture) that we become citizens of heaven and have begun eternity as a citizen of heaven at the moment of salvation. That said, John 13:36 (ESV) does say:

Simon Peter said to him, “Lord, where are you going?” Jesus answered him, “Where I am going you cannot follow me now, but you will follow afterward."

To me, this points to heaven being a separate and most real place, but like Simon Peter when Jesus said these words to him, we are not there yet.

Certainly there is a place we go when we die. The only word I can find for it is "resurrection." I'm not sure what Jesus was saying, but it seems to me he likely was referring to the resurrection.

 

[nonaeroterraqueous]

We are in heaven but because we sin, we suffer.

If you define heaven as a place, then heaven can be anywhere (including here and now) if we repent of our sin. But I normally define heaven as "what our lives turn in to when we repent of our sin."

So you didn't mean to say that we are in Heaven, but you meant that we can be in Heaven. The first quote, taken literally, means that we are in Heaven, and we sin and suffer. That would have meant that Heaven could coexist with sin and suffering (which would make it not Heaven).

I agree that Heaven exists only when sin is removed from the picture, and I agree that suffering ends only when one enters Heaven. That notion is fundamentally true. However, I am currently a rat trying to figure out how to not be a rat. In the end I have found that a rat is a rat, even if he is a well-behaved one. A sinful nature is fundamental to humanity. Even so, the suffering that comes from sin is often, very often, the result of someone else's sin. I resist my own sin as well as I might, but I still suffer the consequences of other people's sin.

Therefore, I can only conclude two things, which must necessarily be true. The first is that I cannot be in Heaven until I have been removed from this place, or the sinners (unbelievers) have been removed from it. This is non-negotiable. The second is equally imperative: I must be transformed into someone not inclined to sin. I must be destroyed and rebuilt as a different kind of person. Your idea of Heaven can partially meet the second condition, but it cannot satisfy the first.

 

[Jonathan Mathews]

Okay, folks, I believe you will find this to be true: We are in heaven but because we sin, we suffer. That is why Jesus “suggested” we stop sinning:

From that time Jesus began to preach, saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand." Matt 4:17 RSV

It is good to suffer for what is right. If you suffer for what is wrong, what reward is there for you? But if you suffer for what is right, you have a reward in heaven.

Jesus was perfect, sinless, never doing anything wrong and yet look how He suffered the evil of this World. Is a student above their Master??? If they hated Jesus, they will hate you. And that is because you do not belong to them, but God has chosen you out of the World for Himself. Anyone who seeks to live after Jesus will also face persecution and hardship in this World.

The only "heaven" in this World is the Holy Spirit inside you, if indeed you have the Spirit of Christ.

If you're in Christ Jesus, you will share in His reward if you share in His sufferings also.

I encourage you to read these:
Matthew 10
1 Peter 3-4

May God comfort you will all His blessings in Heavenly places!
-Jon

 

[woobadooba]

Just when you thought you heard it all!