Why Did Jesus Come? Did He Actually Need To?

bling said:

Right, no one can follow the Law, but they can turn and rely on God's mercy, Love, charity and power to forgive them. We do not want to be "judged" by our behavior, but we will humbly accept God's pure charity.
Did God forgive David without any mention of Christ?

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According to David, no one living was righteous/ justified before God.
So how could they attain to heaven?
And yes, God forgave David, but he still wasn't justified before God, according to what he himself stated

I will leave it at that. I grow weary of some wishing to come up with any sort of argument in order to cling to their particular views

John 18:37 Then Pilate said to him, "So you are a king?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this purpose I was born and for this purpose I have come into the world—to bear witness to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."

Anselm, late of Canterbury wrote the book Cur Deus Homo, and I recommend it for worthy reading. In a nutshell he suggests that humankind owe their all to God, and our sin causes a deficit, and as we have nothing else we cannot fulfill the deficit, so God became man that man might render all that was due, so as he shared a death like ours, so we might share the glory of eternity with him.

We needed Christ because, as the centuries go by, we forget the way and Need to be shown it again...we need for our memories to be refreshed....After a while we forget the truth and start believing the lie. Christ is the way, the truth and the life. For us to obtain life, we must pick up our crosses and follow Him. Yet still, most will be content with just believing that He picked up His cross 2000 years ago and forget the part about following.

jimmyjimmy said:

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

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The OT is filled with prophetic promises of a coming Messiah who would be the Savior of the world. According to Paul the law was in place as a tutor to reveal sin and point people to their need of a Savior.

jimmyjimmy said:

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

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I think it's about whether sinners can be redeemed when they commit a lot of sins and are thus far from God.

Christ said He came not for the righteous, but to call sinners to repentance.

His sacrifice for us we contemplate, and now God's law is written on our hearts!

Thus even sinners like me can be turned! Brought. Brought around to repentance, and to return to the One Who made me.

Hallelujah!

I was dead, but now I am alive.

jimmyjimmy said:

Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

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Read the Epistle to the Hebrews.
You will find your answers here.

Unless Paul is wrong, people before Christ could be saved.

I’d like to suggest that Jesus came for the reason that he said he came: to establish the Kingdom of God. Of course the Kingdom has both present and future aspects. But what changed was the fact that it was now present in history.

God had promised to redeem his people in the OT. Jeremiah described the new covenant that Jesus said his death was in aid of. This new covenant isn’t about making sure people can go to heaven. It was about writing the Law in hearts now.

I do think it had consequences in terms of final salvation. While I doubt that only people in Israel could be saved, still as a historical matter Jesus’ followers represent the visible fulfillment of the prophets vision that Israel would be the light to the Gentiles. I would think that having the light with us would have the effect of saving people who otherwise would not have been. I’m not impressed with the moral and human quality of most pre-Christian cultures.

On the other hand, I think it’s a mistake to look only at who ends up in heaven. There are benefits to people now to be part of the Kingdom. I think God cares about the world, or he wouldn’t have created it.

-V- said:

You seem to think that choosing God precludes being dependent on Him for salvation. That is an utterly false dichotomy.

Someone is drowning at sea. They will die if someone doesn't throw them a life preserver or flotation device. They are completely reliant on someone else to throw that preserver to them, but they also have to choose to grab on to it.

Christ's atoning sacrifice is the lifeline that God threw to us, we are completely dependent on that act of God. But we still have to choose to grab on to it.

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Or you can just pull them out of the water.

If anyone is interested (and is an Amazon Prime member), there's a superb HD teaching series by Dr. R C Sproul available right now (for free) called: What Did Jesus Do? Just go to your Amazon TV app, search "Sproul", and you'll find it

--David

jimmyjimmy said:

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

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Jesus did not come to give law . He came to give grace. That is why He set us free from law (Romans 7:4, 6; Ephesians 2:15).

jimmyjimmy said:

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

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According to John 5:46, Jesus said Moses wrote about him, according to Luke 24:27, Jesus began with Moses and the Prophets interpreting to them all the things in Scripture concerning himself, according to Hebrews 10:7, the totality of the scroll is written about Jesus, and according to Romans 10:4, a relationship with Jesus is the goal of the Law for righteousness for everyone who has faith, so from the beginning it has always been about growing in a relationship with God. In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law and in John 14:15, Jesus said that if we love him, then we will obey his commands, so obedience to God's commands has never been about just following a list of rules, but about demonstrating our faith and our love for God and thereby growing in a relationship with Him. The OT is entirely about Christ and how to have a relationship with him.

jimmyjimmy said:

They can't because they won't.

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Even dead people can do stuff according to Jesus Luke 15.

hedrick said:

Unless Paul is wrong, people before Christ could be saved.

I’d like to suggest that Jesus came for the reason that he said he came: to establish the Kingdom of God. Of course the Kingdom has both present and future aspects. But what changed was the fact that it was now present in history.

God had promised to redeem his people in the OT. Jeremiah described the new covenant that Jesus said his death was in aid of. This new covenant isn’t about making sure people can go to heaven. It was about writing the Law in hearts now.

I do think it had consequences in terms of final salvation. While I doubt that only people in Israel could be saved, still as a historical matter Jesus’ followers represent the visible fulfillment of the prophets vision that Israel would be the light to the Gentiles. I would think that having the light with us would have the effect of saving people who otherwise would not have been. I’m not impressed with the moral and human quality of most pre-Christian cultures.

On the other hand, I think it’s a mistake to look only at who ends up in heaven. There are benefits to people now to be part of the Kingdom. I think God cares about the world, or he wouldn’t have created it.

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Good thoughts and I agree with them for the most part, but I would add other reason besides just the Kingdom for Jesus coming.

Si_monfaith said:

Jesus did not come to give law . He came to give grace. That is why He set us free from law (Romans 7:4, 6; Ephesians 2:15).

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Psalms 119:29 Put false ways far from me and graciously teach me your law!

Do you believe that this verse is true in that the way God showed his grace to David was by teaching him to obey His Law and that David had a correct understanding of God's grace? In Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is precisely what God's Law was given to instruct how to do. Furthermore, it does not say that Jesus gave himself to set us free from the Law, but to set us free from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, and God's Law is again His instructions for how to equip us to do every good work (2 Timothy 3:16-17, Acts 21:20)

In Romans 7:21-25, Paul said that he delighted in obeying God's Law and that he served it with his mind, but contrasted that with the law of sin that held him captive and that he served with his flesh, which is a summary statement of what he had said previously, so we need to be careful to correctly identify which law he is talking about. In Roman 7:6, Paul specifies that the law that we are free from is the law that held up captive, and it is the law of sin that Paul described as holding him captive, while God's Law is a law of liberty (Psalms 119:45, James 1:25).

In Deuteronomy 24:1-4, it prohibits a woman from returning to her first husband after she had been with another man, and this is the law of her husband that Romans 7:4 is referring to. The Mosaic Covenant was a marriage covenant between God and Israel, and in Jeremiah 3:1-14, God actually gave Israel a certificate of divorce because of her adultery, yet God continued to call for her to return to Him, and it was a mystery how God would accomplish this because the only way for Israel to return to God and be released from her adultery would be for her first husband to die, which means that God would have to die. So in Romans 7:4, Israel died to the law of her husband through the death of Jesus, so that Israel might be free to become remarried to him who has been raised from the dead that we might bear fruit for God. This has absolutely nothing with Jesus doing away with his instructions for how to bear fruit for him.

In Ephesians 2:10, it says that we are new creations in Christ for the purpose of doing good works, so it again would not make any sense to say just a few verses later that Christ did away with his instructions for how to do good works. Rather, Ephesians 2:15 is referring to man-made laws, such as mentioned in Acts 10:28, that prohibited Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles

bling said:

First off: can God and did God forgive some sinners prior to Christ going to the cross?

Also, Ro. 3:25 teaches something different 25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement,

through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

What sins and what sinners were left “unpunished” beforehand (prior to what)?

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If you are going to quote one verse in Romans 3 then please read all of Romans 4 to learn that Paul taught that Abraham and all OT people were saved by faith, just as all NT people are saved by faith.

Romans 4:22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

bling said:

Ro. 3:25 is contrasting the way sins are handles after the cross (providing “punishment” which is really discipline) with prior to the cross when the sins of repentant followers were forgiven by God yet not punished (disciplined). Forgiven sinners prior to the cross were not disciplined and after the cross forgiven sinners are disciplined for all the good reasons of disciplining.

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There are two types of forgiveness for the two types of "wrath". Jesus died to atone for the eternal consequences of sin. On judgement day those with faith will have their sins atoned for and will not receive any punishment for them.

But, if Jesus died to forgive all sins, why did Jesus teach us in the Lord's prayer, "Forgive us our sins"? That is because there are earthly consequences of sin. Further God may even judge us in this world as a result of our sin. This is called discipline in scripture, but at the time may feel like punishment.

As to your discourse on Romans 3:25, start with the context of the chapter, that would be the righteousness of people. And, when is the righteousness of people of utmost importance? On judgement day. Now think who is punished on judgement day, those destined to hell. Those that die in faith will not be punished for their sins on judgement day. Why is that, because as Romans 3:24-25 state, Jesus atoned for our sins with his death.

So people that died before Jesus died received a credit of righteousness in anticipation of Jesus dying for the sins of all saved people. Understand that it was God's plan since creation for his Son to die for us. For God, that is outside of time, to judge those that died before some certain day differently than those after a certain day would be inconsistent and not Godly. This is why scripture states that God "had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished".

Now scripture does discuss sin and the earthly consequences of sin and the need to repent of sins and be forgiven during this life. Look to texts like Hebrews 12 for such insight, don't insert it into Romans 3 and 4 that have nothing to do with that topic.

jimmyjimmy said:

I started this thread because of the countless times I've heard posters here reduce Christianity to simply "choosing to obey".

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I think your assessment that there are 'countless times I've heard posters here reduce Christianity to simply "choosing to obey"' is way off. Not typical in this forum.

jimmyjimmy said:

If simply choosing to obey is how this works, then there really was no need for a new covenant. Jesus could have stayed home.

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Understand that all saved people throughout all time are saved by the grace of God because of their faith in God. This means people were saved even before the old covenant/law was even written the same way we are saved today with the establishment by Jesus of the new covenant. So, the covenants do not save us, the covenants are what the saved people do as a part of being followers of God.

Jesus did not abolish the law and we are still commanded to obey the law. It did not save people in the OT and it does not save us today. Jesus died to demonstrate in one act both God's justice and grace/mercy/love. He did it to teach us that God hates sin and that sins are punished. He did it to demonstrate his love for us and that it is impossible for us to redeem ourselves and make us justified before him on judgement day.

So Jesus had to die and in fact it was God's plan since creation that his Son would die for us. The people in the OT anticipated their Messiah coming as we should all anticipate Jesus' second coming for it is the fruition of God's plan for perfection.