Why Did Jesus Come? Did He Actually Need To?

[Wordkeeper]

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.


If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".


If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

Let’s list out the parties involved in the Old Covenant, and the requirements and the benefits thereof:


Parties:
Israel and God.

Requirement:
Loyalty

Benefit:
Rest (protection from enemies and scarcity by God, in Canaan!)



Similarly, in the New Covenant:

Parties:
Body of Christ and God.

Requirement:
Loyalty

Benefit:
Rest (protection from enemies and scarcity by God, in Christ!)

Who were loyal in the Old Covenant, how, and did they benefit, and again how?

The remnant, by not bowing their knees to Baal. They followed the law, asked for forgiveness on transgressing, and benefited by not being under wrath, deprivation of food and safety, defeat and exile.

Who were disloyal in the Old Covenant, how, and did they suffer, and again how?

The disobedient, by bowing their knees to Baal, by substituting the Word of God with the traditions of men in order to live selfishly. They diluted the law, boasted about their righteousness according to their own interpretation of the Law, and on transgressing, were under God’s wrath, deprivation of food and safety, defeat and exile from the Promised Land by being taken away by foreign armies.


How did the Cross change the Old Covenant?

The Cross completed the Old Covenant, carried out its requirements, both in shadow and reality. Christ followed the law perfectly. In doing so, He was qualified to be the unblemished Lamb required for the sin offering. Which took away the sins of all mankind. A will can be administered only if the testator dies, old humanity, whom Christ was qualified to represent, taking on earthly flesh. The inheritance is the new humanity. The inheritors are those who die to the old humanity and are resurrected into new humanity, of whom Christ is again, the first beneficiary.

What the Cross did was that it cleansed humanity, so that we are now resting in the new Adam.

Quote
In agreement with this principle, Zech. 3 uses all the symbolism of a defiled human high priest Joshua and then speaks mysteriously of the Branch in connection with which “I will remove the sin of this land in a single day” (Zech. 3:9).

The Shadow of Christ in the Law of Moses

The Promised Land is a type, a foreshadowing of Christ, who represents all of new humanity, just as Adam represented all of old humanity. How is the new humanity, the Promised Land we rest in, the seed in which all the world is blessed, cleansed? By the shedding of the blood of the Son of God, the real Israel of God. Israel was meant to bless the world, but she first needed to be cleansed herself. Only then could she be the Lamb without blemish, the requirement for a sin offering. Where the first son failed, the second succeeded, a recurring motif in Scripture.

Paul said when the Law came, he was killed:

Romans 7:9I was once alive apart from the Law; but when the commandment came, sin became alive and I died; 10and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me; 11for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me. 12So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

Did the faithful remnant die and go to hell, since they couldn’t follow the law as it needed to be followed, perfectly, the requirements of the contract? The problem lies in the translation of pedagogos. It means guardian, not tutor. In Ancient Greece, the pedagogos was the slave who took the child to school, ensuring he wasn’t run over by chariots (traffic). So he was responsible for his SAFETY, not enlightenment.

A person who believed God, did not dilute His Laws to become rationalised traditions of men, did not bow his knees to Baal, would either follow the Law, or break it and ask for forgiveness (Have mercy on me Lord, a sinner!) and be justified, safe from the wrath of God, defeat and being carried away into exile by enemies. He wouldn’t water it down and congratulate himself for being righteous according to the standards of a Pharisee. Paul called it dung. Contributing nothing. The purpose of the Law was to protect, by being loyal, by saying, “Yes God did really say perfectly”.

Not by being disloyal, rationalising it away, arguing: “Did God really say perfect?”

Recap
Men don’t have the ability to obey God perfectly. That requires union with God. Christ had the ability to obey God. He made rest possible through cleansing humanity. He made the blessing transferable by writing out a new will and dying. He transferred the blessing by putting to death the old humanity for THOSE WHO CHOOSE to die to the old humanity, to be raised into Christ. By being a sin offering He made us able to be the righteousness of God by being IN Him.

2 Corinthians 5:21He made Him who knew no blemish to be a sin offering on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him. (Some nice Greek coming up!).

That’s how the world is blessed by being IN the seed.

Genesis 22:18"In your seed all the nations of the earth shall be blessed, because you have obeyed My voice."

 

[Colter]

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

The answer is in the last thing he said before leaving:


The Great Commission

Then the eleven disciples went to Galilee, to the mountain where Jesus had told them to go. When they saw him, they worshiped him; but some doubted. Then Jesus came to them and said, “All authority in heaven and on earth has been given to me. Therefore go and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit, and teaching them to obey everything I have commanded you. And surely I am with you always, to the very end of the age.”

* It was the Fathers will that our creator Son incarnate and live the life and the death of a human, subject to the Fathers will, and in order to achieve unquestioned authority.

* God is changeless, he has always been forgiving to the sincere repentant.

 

[Adstar]

Where do you get the idea: “before He obtained the Atonement”?

Did Christ obtain atonement or do we obtain Atonement?

Jesus secured or obtained the Atonement for the forgivness of sins when he was executed on the cross.... So we obtain it as a gift from Jesus when we accept that gift by believing Jesus and trusting in that Atonement..

So you see Christ’s forgiveness as just being for living individual’s past sins so if they sin further they will not be forgiveness again, unless Christ shows up?

Ummm No... I don't know how you can to that conclusion from reading my replies? But anyway no i do not believe what you have stated in the above quote..

Were there people who never new Christ forgiven in the Old Testament?

They where not forgiven.. But where waiting for the comming of jesus to be forgiven..

I do not speak Victorian English so the KJV is not the best for us to use in this case. Do you want to go back to the Greek?

I think I was using the NIV, but most multiple scholar translations are very similar.

Ok i do not recognise the NIV as an accurate translation of the scriptures.. I am not a Greek speaker so i do not want to go back to the greek.. Strange you asked that.. Was that at legitimate question or where you being sarcastic ???

 

[bling]

I started this thread because of the countless times I've heard posters here reduce Christianity to simply "choosing to obey". If simply choosing to obey is how this works, then there really was no need for a new covenant. Jesus could have stayed home.

We do not "chose to obey" since the OC showed we could not obey, the choice is to accept or reject God's charity as pure charity.

 

[bling]

If you are going to quote one verse in Romans 3 then please read all of Romans 4 to learn that Paul taught that Abraham and all OT people were saved by faith, just as all NT people are saved by faith.

Romans 4:22 This is why “it was credited to him as righteousness.” 23 The words “it was credited to him” were written not for him alone, 24 but also for us, to whom God will credit righteousness—for us who believe in him who raised Jesus our Lord from the dead. 25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

There are two types of forgiveness for the two types of "wrath". Jesus died to atone for the eternal consequences of sin. On judgement day those with faith will have their sins atoned for and will not receive any punishment for them.

Where does it say: “Jesus died to forgive all sins”, when Jesus died only as the atoning sacrifice for our sins. God forgives our sins and does not need Christ to go to the cross to forgive sins?

Where does it also say: "Jesus died to atone for the eternal consequences of sin.” Again Jesus died to be our atoning sacrifice. Forgiveness of our sins; relieves us of the “eternal consequences of sin”.

But, if Jesus died to forgive all sins, why did Jesus teach us in the Lord's prayer, "Forgive us our sins"? That is because there are earthly consequences of sin. Further God may even judge us in this world as a result of our sin. This is called discipline in scripture, but at the time may feel like punishment.

As to your discourse on Romans 3:25, start with the context of the chapter, that would be the righteousness of people. And, when is the righteousness of people of utmost importance? On judgement day. Now think who is punished on judgement day, those destined to hell. Those that die in faith will not be punished for their sins on judgement day. Why is that, because as Romans 3:24-25 state, Jesus atoned for our sins with his death.

We desire and need righteousness now and forever (we want to become slaves of righteousness) or do we want to go on sinning in this life?

Where does it say: “Jesus atoned for our sins with his death” since it does say: Ro. 3:25 “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement”. It was also “finished” BY Christ’s words prior to Christ actually dying.

So people that died before Jesus died received a credit of righteousness in anticipation of Jesus dying for the sins of all saved people. Understand that it was God's plan since creation for his Son to die for us. For God, that is outside of time, to judge those that died before some certain day differently than those after a certain day would be inconsistent and not Godly. This is why scripture states that God "had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished".

Paul is presenting a contrast between how sins were handled before the cross and now after the cross, so are you saying there is no contrast?

From the context of Ro. 3:25 we can easily conclude forgiven sins after the cross are disciplined or punished and forgiven sins prior to the cross where not disciplined or punished.

What is this “punishment” or discipline talking about? Did God (unjustly) punish the innocent Christ?

 

[bling]

Jesus secured or obtained the Atonement for the forgivness of sins when he was executed on the cross.... So we obtain it as a gift from Jesus when we accept that gift by believing Jesus and trusting in that Atonement..

Forgiveness of sin under the Old Testament for unintentional sins (Lev. 5 and other places) was given by God after correctly completing the atonement process with no mention of Christ.

The prophets tell us:

Ezk. 18: 30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Isaiah 30:15 This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it

Psalm 130:

Out of the depths I cry to you, Lord;2 Lord, hear my voice. Let your ears be attentive

to my cry for mercy. 3 If you, Lord, kept a record of sins,

Lord, who could stand? 4 But with you there is forgiveness,

so that we can, with reverence, serve you.

Psalm 103: 2Praise the Lord, my soul and forget not all his benefits—3 who forgives all your sins

and heals all your diseases, 4 who redeems your life from the pit

and crowns you with love and compassion,

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

The Old Testament does not talk about a “later time” when forgiven sinner will have his sins taken away, but talks about God forgiving them at the time of their repentance, so in the Old Testament times God “past over” forgiven sins and did not punish the sinner, while after the cross a person could be punished (disciplined).

Ok i do not recognise the NIV as an accurate translation of the scriptures.. I am not a Greek speaker so i do not want to go back to the greek.. Strange you asked that.. Was that at legitimate question or where you being sarcastic ???

No many have taken Greek in school and you can dissect the passage a word at a time (looking up every time the Greek word is used in scripture. I am not a Greek scholar, but do go back to the Greek, I do not trust any one interpretation.

 

[1213]

Why Did Jesus Come?

Bible gives this answer:

"The Spirit of the Lord is on me, Because he has anointed me to preach good news to the poor. He has sent me to heal the brokenhearted, To proclaim release to the captives, Recovering of sight to the blind, To deliver those who are crushed, And to proclaim the acceptable year of the Lord."
Luke 4:18-19

He said to them, "Let's go elsewhere into the next towns, that I may preach there also, because for this reason I came forth."
Mark 1:38

But he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the Kingdom of God to the other cities also. For this reason I have been sent."
Luke 4:43

Pilate therefore said to him, "Are you a king then?" Jesus answered, "You say that I am a king. For this reason I have been born, and for this reason I have come into the world, that I should testify to the truth. Everyone who is of the truth listens to my voice."
John 18:37

And the reason why Jesus died:

For to this end Christ died, rose, and lived again, that he might be Lord of both the dead and the living.
Romans 14:9

 

[Kutte]

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

Hi jimmyjiommy,
The answer is quite simple and comes from Jesus himself:
"I must preach the Good News of the Kingdom of God for that is why I was sent."
God bless

 

[JESUS=G.O.A.T]

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

Repentance, baptism, and the reception of the Holy Ghost wasn't an OT thing. People in the OT couldn't house the HOly Spirit all they really had was repentance and the law. HE died for our sins so now we can through acts 2:38 be a new creature in christ JESUS. We can wear what he died for.

In the NT we have this.

Repentance=forgiveness, accept and believe in God/ accept JESUS is the savior, change of heart

baptism= sins washed away, display of obedience to christ

Holy spirit= The spirit on the inside, ability to resist sin

It's no longer just choose who you serve


Additionally, if obeying the law was so easy i'm sure more would have done it. IT seems easy to us looking from the outside and we like to claim we could have obeyed it.

 

[ronandcarol]

Why Did Jesus Come? Did He Actually Need To?
I guess He didn't have to if He didn't want any to be saved. But it is written that God dose not want any to perish, but to come to the Knowledge of Christ.
You say, We had the Law! But, There is not a person that has lived or will ever live that can keep all of the Law, it is humanly IMPOSSIBLE! Jesus came from His throne on high to save us by His death and resurrection. That is why He came. He not only needed to, but because He is total Love, He wanted to.
ronandcarol

 

[ViaCrucis]

Why did Jesus come?

Because God loves the world that He created, and death is puts a big kibosh on that whole living thing.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[jimmyjimmy]

We do not "chose to obey" since the OC showed we could not obey, the choice is to accept or reject God's charity as pure charity.

Hasn't that always been the case?

 

[AnticipateHisComing]

Where does it say: “Jesus died to forgive all sins”, when Jesus died only as the atoning sacrifice for our sins.

Your understanding of forgiveness vs Jesus' atoning sacrifice is backwards, for the greater is Jesus' atoning sacrifice. Read and study Hebrews 9 and 10 to appreciated the importance of Jesus' sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation

God forgives our sins and does not need Christ to go to the cross to forgive sins?

Do you understand why and how important it was for Jesus to die for our sins? Do you understand that all forgiveness of sins is based on Jesus' death? Again, read Hebrews 9 and 10.

Where does it also say: "Jesus died to atone for the eternal consequences of sin.” Again Jesus died to be our atoning sacrifice. Forgiveness of our sins; relieves us of the “eternal consequences of sin”.

Where does it say: “Jesus atoned for our sins with his death” since it does say: Ro. 3:25 “God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement”.

Besides the Romans 4:25 that I already quoted, can you read ALL of Romans 3:25 that you repeatedly reference? What do you think a sacrifice is? Again read Hebrews 9 if you don't know sacrifices require the shedding of blood. Further, do you know why millions of Christians wear crosses?

Romans 3:25 God presented Christ as a sacrifice of atonement, through the shedding of his blood—to be received by faith. He did this to demonstrate his righteousness, because in his forbearance he had left the sins committed beforehand unpunished

It was also “finished” BY Christ’s words prior to Christ actually dying.

You aim to split hairs to argue a useless point. Do you really think there is any significant difference in the few seconds between Jesus saying it is finished and him actually dying?

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit.

Paul is presenting a contrast between how sins were handled before the cross and now after the cross, so are you saying there is no contrast?

I am saying that your understanding of the text is not consistent with scripture. People were punished in the OT just as they were in the NT.

From the context of Ro. 3:25 we can easily conclude forgiven sins after the cross are disciplined or punished and forgiven sins prior to the cross where not disciplined or punished.

Not. I have already stated the context of Romans 3 and 4. It does not say a thing about earthly punishment of sins. You refuted none of my statements, only to say that we need righteousness now. Yes, but the more important place for one to be declared righteous before God is on judgement day.

What is this “punishment” or discipline talking about? Did God (unjustly) punish the innocent Christ?

Romans 3:25 uses the word forbearance which means:
the action of refraining from exercising a legal right, especially enforcing the payment of a debt.
Jesus with his death paid our debt. You can't punish the innocent, but one can suffer for another.

 

[bling]

Hasn't that always been the case?

It was not stated that way with Adam and Eve, but it was the case. They seem to have accepted God's Love not as pure charity since they would naturally expect a wonderful Parent to take care of wonderful obedient children, there was no reason for Adam and Eve to have to humble themselves to accept charity. Being humble is not easy.

 

[Adstar]

Forgiveness of sin under the Old Testament for unintentional sins (Lev. 5 and other places) was given by God after correctly completing the atonement process with no mention of Christ.

The prophets tell us:

Ezk. 18: 30 “Therefore, you Israelites, I will judge each of you according to your own ways, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent! Turn away from all your offenses; then sin will not be your downfall. 31 Rid yourselves of all the offenses you have committed, and get a new heart and a new spirit. Why will you die, people of Israel? 32 For I take no pleasure in the death of anyone, declares the Sovereign Lord. Repent and live!

Isaiah 30:15 This is what the Sovereign Lord, the Holy One of Israel, says: “In repentance and rest is your salvation, in quietness and trust is your strength, but you would have none of it

Psalm 130:

Out of the depths I cry to you, Lord;2 Lord, hear my voice. Let your ears be attentive

to my cry for mercy. 3 If you, Lord, kept a record of sins,

Lord, who could stand? 4 But with you there is forgiveness,

so that we can, with reverence, serve you.

Psalm 103: 2Praise the Lord, my soul and forget not all his benefits—3 who forgives all your sins

and heals all your diseases, 4 who redeems your life from the pit

and crowns you with love and compassion,

Micah 7:18 Who is a God like you, who pardons sin and forgives the transgression of the remnant of his inheritance? You do not stay angry forever but delight to show mercy.

The Old Testament does not talk about a “later time” when forgiven sinner will have his sins taken away, but talks about God forgiving them at the time of their repentance, so in the Old Testament times God “past over” forgiven sins and did not punish the sinner, while after the cross a person could be punished (disciplined).



No many have taken Greek in school and you can dissect the passage a word at a time (looking up every time the Greek word is used in scripture. I am not a Greek scholar, but do go back to the Greek, I do not trust any one interpretation.

You quote 3 prophets ... Think for a bit about that.. The old testament sacrifices where only a foreshadowing of the final and effectual sacrifice of Jesus.. The OT believers looked forward to the time that the real sacrifice would be done.. and we Christians look back to when the real sacrifice was done..

And you are trusting in a Greek concordance written by a man.. Do not tell me to go and use a Greek concordance to figure out what the Bible means.. God in His wisdom can cause His Word to be translated correctly.. There is no gospel according to some Greek scholar .. If you have been lead to believe that the sacrifice of the LORD Jesus Christ did not secure salvation to all believer through all time then that's proof enough to me that you have been lead astray by faulty Greek translation books..

If a person believes the English Bible is faulty and not good enough and goes seeking out the Greek then it is sure they have actually rejected the Message of the Bible and have declared it to be faulty and inadequate..

 

[bling]

Your understanding of forgiveness vs Jesus' atoning sacrifice is backwards, for the greater is Jesus' atoning sacrifice. Read and study Hebrews 9 and 10 to appreciated the importance of Jesus' sacrifice.

Hebrews 10:12 But when this priest had offered for all time one sacrifice for sins, he sat down at the right hand of God,

Ephesians 1:7 In him we have redemption through his blood, the forgiveness of sins, in accordance with the riches of God’s grace

Colossians 1:19 For God was pleased to have all his fullness dwell in him, 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.21 Once you were alienated from God and were enemies in your minds because of[g] your evil behavior. 22 But now he has reconciled you by Christ’s physical body through death to present you holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation
.

You bring up some excellent verses, but it still does not say Jesus died to forgive all sins.

Generally does blood forgive, does the cross forgive, does death forgive, or does Deity forgive?

The follow up question would be: If God is doing the forgiving is God lacking some power or Love to forgive that requires a His son’s blood to forgive and if so does that not make God out to be blood thirsty or does man have a problem with accepting God’s forgiveness as pure charity?

Heb. 10:12 Jesus is the a sin offering, but God forgives our sins.

Eph. 1:7 This takes a little more explaining, because Christ’s cleaning blood does not have to refer to the onetime event on the cross. Paul is addressing Christians in Eph. And Christians walking on the path are constantly being cleansed by Christ’s blood (as blood of animals was used to cleanse everything in the temple). In the OT they could not drink the blood of animals, but Christians today symbolically drink Christ’s blood to cleanse their hearts. Our sins are washed away by the blood. The blood used in this way is not referring back to the onetime spelling of Christ’s blood on the cross.

Col. 1: 19 Does Christ’s activities allow God to be reconciled to us and come to us or did Christ’s actions allow us to go to God, “holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation”?

Think about this: A wonderful father forgives a repeater of very rebellious disobedience, does that make the child “holy in his sight, without blemish and free from accusation”, or would correctly going through Loving discipline with the parent with him, help the relationship make it stronger and allow the child to feel comfortable in the presence of the father, because of all the benefits which come with Loving discipline?

Do you understand why and how important it was for Jesus to die for our sins? Do you understand that all forgiveness of sins is based on Jesus' death? Again, read Hebrews 9 and 10.
.

I know my personal sins caused Christ to go to the cross, so I have the same reaction as those on Pentecost did in Acts 2 and feel a death blow to my heart. I have been crucified with Christ.

I realize God has forgiven me of this sin and all other sins.

What are you saying Christ had to do for a needing weak God, so God could forgive?

What I am saying is: God does not “need” anything, yet man has a huge need to help man with man’s problems.

Besides the Romans 4:25 that I already quoted, can you read ALL of Romans 3:25 that you repeatedly reference? What do you think a sacrifice is? Again read Hebrews 9 if you don't know sacrifices require the shedding of blood. Further, do you know why millions of Christians wear crosses?.

Ro. 4:25 He was delivered over to death for our sins and was raised to life for our justification.

I am not having any issue with Jesus dying because of our sins, but that does not mean: “so we can be forgiven”.

(This is somewhat off subject) but nonblood atonement sacrifice were given (Lev. 5) a bag of flour. Everything associated with the altar was cleansed with blood so in that way blood was needed.

The cross does remind up of Christ’s sacrifice, but that can be with mixed emotions.

You aim to split hairs to argue a useless point. Do you really think there is any significant difference in the few seconds between Jesus saying it is finished and him actually dying?

John 19:30 When he had received the drink, Jesus said, “It is finished.” With that, he bowed his head and gave up his spirit..

Yes, but we do not have to go into that.

I am saying that your understanding of the text is not consistent with scripture. People were punished in the OT just as they were in the NT..

Paul says: they went “unpunished” and that is what I read about in the OT.

Not. I have already stated the context of Romans 3 and 4. It does not say a thing about earthly punishment of sins. You refuted none of my statements, only to say that we need righteousness now. Yes, but the more important place for one to be declared righteous before God is on judgement day.
.

Prior to the cross there was no just/fair way for repentant sinners to be disciplined and live. There was under the Old Law fair/ just discipline, but for intentional sins directly against God (which all adults eventual do) there was death or banishment and if strictly followed by the Jews would have resulted in no Jew left in the Promised Land. This is why Paul says: “left unpunished”.

After the cross there is fair/Just punishment (disciplining) for all sins including rebellious disobedience against God, but that does not mean God punished Christ by having Christ tortured, humiliated and murdered. It is us that can now be “crucified with Christ” and thus be tortured, humiliated and murdered empathetically without having to physically die (like those on Pentecost Acts 2:37).

Romans 3:25 uses the word forbearance which means:
the action of refraining from exercising a legal right, especially enforcing the payment of a debt.
Jesus with his death paid our debt. You can't punish the innocent, but one can suffer for another.

I fully agree “one can suffer for another” and realize that is what happened, but that does not mean the innocent suffer becomes the guilty and removes the guilty parties just punishment (discipline). Many have suffered and died for others, but not to allow the guilty to go free unpunished (undisciplined) which would not really help the guilty and that is unfair/unjust.

Christ suffered for the guilty, so the guilty could be disciplined by being crucified with Christ and thus be fairly/justly disciplined (punished) and yet physically go on living.

 

[Hammster]

The follow up question would be: If God is doing the forgiving is God lacking some power or Love to forgive that requires a His son’s blood to forgive and if so does that not make God out to be blood thirsty or does man have a problem with accepting God’s forgiveness as pure charity?

“And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[bling]

You quote 3 prophets ... Think for a bit about that.. The old testament sacrifices where only a foreshadowing of the final and effectual sacrifice of Jesus.. The OT believers looked forward to the time that the real sacrifice would be done.. and we Christians look back to when the real sacrifice was done..

And you are trusting in a Greek concordance written by a man.. Do not tell me to go and use a Greek concordance to figure out what the Bible means.. God in His wisdom can cause His Word to be translated correctly.. There is no gospel according to some Greek scholar .. If you have been lead to believe that the sacrifice of the LORD Jesus Christ did not secure salvation to all believer through all time then that's proof enough to me that you have been lead astray by faulty Greek translation books..

If a person believes the English Bible is faulty and not good enough and goes seeking out the Greek then it is sure they have actually rejected the Message of the Bible and have declared it to be faulty and inadequate..

Settle down a little here: Concordances are just lists of where the same words were used in scripture so with a computer today loaded with the Greek Bible you could do it yourself with a push of a button without a scholar’s help.

I would prefer all commentaries were burned since they seem to have done more harm than good, but concordances are not an issue.

Christians today have the power of the indwelling Holy Spirit to help them, but they must study with a righteous motive.

You are very right to realize the OT sacrifices were illogical without them being a shadow of what was to come, but I am talking about people in the OT being forgiven of intentional sins which had no sacrifice available to them.

 

[bling]

“And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Right: under the Law most everything was cleansed with blood and a few things were cleansed with water, but blood was needed.

 

[Hammster]

Right: under the Law most everything was cleansed with blood and a few things were cleansed with water, but blood was needed.

And Who fulfilled the law?