Why Did Jesus Come? Did He Actually Need To?

[bling]

And Who fulfilled the law?

We do not and Christ did, but what is your point?

 

[Hammster]

We do not and Christ did, but what is your point?

God requires His Son's blood.

 

[EmSw]

God requires His Son's blood.

Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

God did not require burnt offerings and sin offerings, therefore no blood.

What He does require is for us to fear Him, to walk in His ways, to love Him, and to serve Him with all your heart and soul.

He also requires us to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with Him.

 

[Hawkins]

God had laid out the law to His people. He gave them prophets, priests, and kings. He gave them a sacrificial system to cover their sins. . . . The entire system was in place, if only one chose to obey it.

If men have the ability to choose God, and choose to follow His ways, why Christ? The old covenant fit the bill in every way that most people speak of the new one, right? Many say, "Follow the rules, and you are good with God. Don't and you are cut off".

If "Choose this day whom you will serve. . ." is all that's needed, again, why Christ? Why did mankind need something more that what God had already provided?

It is all necessity driven.

God planned to build an eternity we call Heaven for Him to live with humans and angels forever. Heaven can be seen as a sin free place. It is necessary to qualify entities with freewill to enter this place. That is to say division will have to occur to humans (and angels). In the end, one group of humans are qualified to enter Heaven, which is God's Elect. The other group will be disqualified. There must be a place for such a division to occur. It is thus necessary to build earth for such a division before men can enter Heaven.

God is sin-incompatible. So in order to live with Him forever Law has been set up to qualify humans and angel alike. The message of God's Law is basically, "you can't do certain things in order to live with God in the forever realm".

Both Satan and Adam somehow broke the Law when put inside God's current dwelling realm (not the future heaven but the current heaven). So in terms of division of freewill, they both are disqualified. However God gives Adam and his descendants a second chance. The division of humans will thus be on earth. Even in this scenario, the "second chance" doesn't come without a price in terms of justification and legitimacy. In the end, Jesus will pay the price.

Other than this "second chance", humans cannot abide by God's Law (i.e., the set of Law applicable to both angels and humans to qualify them to enter the final heaven). It is reasonable, if someone as pure as Adam failed to keep the Law when put inside God's own realm, it is expected that other humans will fail when put outside God's realm (i.e., our earth) and under the direct influence of Satan and his angels.

All humans after Adam are thus dead in front of God's Law. This is proven from Adam to Noah under open witnessing (of the angels). From this period of time (Adam to Noah), it is openly demonstrated that humans have no hope to enter Heaven when God's Law is in place. Earth together with everything on it will have to be destroyed. God's plan of bringing humans to Heaven is thus defeated (by Satan).

But yet, God has Jesus. So covenants can be granted to humans for the righteous (qualified) to be distinguished from the wicked (disqualified). A covenant basically says, "since you humans can't abide by God's Law to its full, now God gives you something to abide by such that if you can you will be qualified". Again, this cannot be the case without Jesus in terms of justification and legitimacy. It has to come with a huge price which is what Jesus Christ has paid.

 

[Hammster]

Deuteronomy 10:12
And now, Israel, what does the Lord your God require of you, but to fear the Lord your God, to walk in all His ways and to love Him, to serve the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul,

Psalm 40:6
Sacrifice and offering You did not desire; My ears You have opened. Burnt offering and sin offering You did not require.

Micah 6:8
He has shown you, O man, what is good; And what does the Lord require of you but to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with your God?

God did not require burnt offerings and sin offerings, therefore no blood.

What He does require is for us to fear Him, to walk in His ways, to love Him, and to serve Him with all your heart and soul.

He also requires us to do justly, to love mercy, and to walk humbly with Him.

The writer of Hebrews disagrees with your understanding.

 

[bling]

God requires His Son's blood.

Wow, so you feel God is so blood thirsty He personally wanted His own son’s blood?

Heb. 9: 20 He said, “This is the blood of the covenant, which God has commanded you to keep.” 21 In the same way, he sprinkled with the blood both the tabernacle and everything used in its ceremonies. 22 In fact, the law requires that nearly everything be cleansed with blood, and without the shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

Blood was used for cleansing everything in the temple, so today’s temple which are Christians need blood to feel and be clean, but does that mean God is weak or blood thirsty and needs blood to forgive people as a kind of payment in blood?

The blood is to cleanse us and not for God to forgive us. We have the problem and not God having a problem with forgiving. Look at these verses to see who is being helped by Christ’s blood:

Matt. 26:28 This is my blood of the covenant which is poured out for many for the forgiveness of sins.

Mark 14:24 “This is my blood of the covenant, which is poured out for many,” he said to them.

Luke 22: 20 In the same way, after the supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood, which is poured out for you.

John 6:53 Jesus said to them, “Very truly I tell you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you have no life in you.

Acts 20: 28 Keep watch over yourselves and all the flock of which the Holy Spirit has made you overseers. Be shepherds of the church of God, which he bought with his own blood. Or (a) with the blood of his own Son

Ro. 5; 8 But God demonstrates his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us. 9 Since we have now been justified by his blood, how much more shall we be saved from God’s wrath through him! 10 For if, while we were God’s enemies, we were reconciled to him through the death of his Son, how much more, having been reconciled, shall we be saved through his life!

1 Cor 10: 16 Is not the cup of thanksgiving for which we give thanks a participation in the blood of Christ? And is not the bread that we break a participation in the body of Christ?

1 Cor 11: 24 and when he had given thanks, he broke it and said, “This is my body, which is for you; do this in remembrance of me.” 25 In the same way, after supper he took the cup, saying, “This cup is the new covenant in my blood; do this, whenever you drink it, in remembrance of me.” 26 For whenever you eat this bread and drink this cup, you proclaim the Lord’s death until he comes. 27 So then, whoever eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty of sinning against the body and blood of the Lord.

Col. 1: 20 and through him to reconcile to himself all things, whether things on earth or things in heaven, by making peace through his blood, shed on the cross.

Heb. 11: 12 And so Jesus also suffered outside the city gate to make the people holy through his own blood. 13 Let us, then, go to him outside the camp, bearing the disgrace he bore.

1 Peter 1: 18 For you know that it was not with perishable things such as silver or gold that you were redeemed from the empty way of life handed down to you from your ancestors, 19 but with the precious blood of Christ, a lamb without blemish or defect

Hebrews 9:14 How much more, then, will the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself unblemished to God, cleanse our consciences from acts that lead to death, so that we may serve the living God!

Heb. 10: 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.

Rev. 5: 9…with your blood you purchased for God

persons from every tribe and language and people and nation.

There is a lot here: repeatedly the blood is talked about the change it makes in us (cleanses us from a guilty conscience, redeeming us, makes the people holy, makes peace (so are we the ones waring against God or is God waring against us), we proclaim Christ’s death, we participate with Christ, and the blood was not given to God to purchase people, but we were bought.

God does not need Christ’s blood, but I do for everything that it brings, so God allowed a willing Christ to provide me with His blood because God Loves me.

 

[Hammster]

Wow, so you feel God is so blood thirsty He personally wanted His own son’s blood?

Bloodthirsty

1. eager to shed blood; murderous: to capture a bloodthirsty criminal.
2. enjoying or encouraging bloodshed or violence, especially as a spectator or clamorous partisan: the bloodthirsty urgings of the fight fans.

I never gave any indication that I thought that.

 

[bling]

Bloodthirsty

1. eager to shed blood; murderous: to capture a bloodthirsty criminal.
2. enjoying or encouraging bloodshed or violence, especially as a spectator or clamorous partisan: the bloodthirsty urgings of the fight fans.

I never gave any indication that I thought that.

I explained how it works in post 66, so how do you explain: "God requires His Son's blood.", since if that was said about anyone else requiring the spilling of innocent blood they would be called blood thirsty?

 

[Hammster]

I explained how it works in post 66, so how do you explain: "God requires His Son's blood.", since if that was said about anyone else requiring the spilling of innocent blood they would be called blood thirsty?

“And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[EmSw]

The writer of Hebrews disagrees with your understanding.

What you mean is that whoever wrote Hebrews disagrees with Moses, David, Micah, and God.

 

[Hammster]

What you mean is that whoever wrote Hebrews disagrees with Moses, David, Micah, and God.

No, I'm sure I know what I meant.

 

[EmSw]

No, I'm sure I know what I meant.

And I am sure what God meant and requires.

 

[Hammster]

And I am sure what God meant and requires.

 

[EmSw]

 

[bling]

“And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.”
‭‭Hebrews‬ ‭9:22‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“"Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill.”
‭‭Matthew‬ ‭5:17‬ ‭NASB‬‬


“But the LORD was pleased To crush Him, putting Him to grief; If He would render Himself as a guilt offering, He will see His offspring, He will prolong His days, And the good pleasure of the LORD will prosper in His hand.”
‭‭Isaiah‬ ‭53:10‬ ‭NASB‬‬

“He made Him who knew no sin to be sin on our behalf, so that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.”
‭‭2 Corinthians‬ ‭5:21‬ ‭NASB‬‬

First off 2 Cor. 5:21 in the NIV and has as a footnote: b.2 Corinthians 5:21 Or be a sin offering since

The word translated “sin” just has to do with sin and does not mean just “sin” but you have to come up with something to explain it, so the NIV translators just give you another possibility.

What do you think: “to be sin on our behalf” means, since other places we know Christ is our sin offering and would fit the explanation in the Greek? Isaiah 53:10 supports the definition of it being a “guilt offering” and not making him “sin” meaning something else?

Is. 53:10 NIV Yet it was the Lord’s will to crush him and cause him to suffer, and though the Lord makes his life an offering for sin, he will see his offspring and prolong his days, and the will of the Lord will prosper in his hand.

RSV Yet it was the will of the Lord to bruise him; he has put him to grief; when he makes himself an offering for sin, he shall see his offspring, he shall prolong his days; the will of the Lord shall prosper in his hand;

Christ willingly (and Christ made himself do this) doing the will or desire of God is always pleasing to God.

This verse does not explain “why” it was pleasing to God to have Christ willingly be tortured, humiliated and murdered. Are you saying God takes personal pleasure in the torturing, humiliating and murdering of the innocent or was there another reason this pleased God?

Did God actually do the torturing, humiliating and murdering of Christ or did God allow a willing Christ to be crucified by wicked people?

Bottom line is “just because it is God’s will and it pleases God to have His will followed, does not mean it was done for God’s personal pleasure. You may willingly and even happily risk and loss your life for others, but that does not mean you did it for your pleasure. So what is God’s non-personal logical reason for allowing this crucifixion?

 

[brinny]

Sure, cuz spiritually dead is 100% identical to physically dead. Good point. I should have realized that.

You had it right the first time.

 

[Hammster]

Are you saying God takes personal pleasure in the torturing, humiliating and murdering of the innocent or was there another reason this pleased God?

I'm agreeing with scripture when it says

“this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

 

[bling]

I'm agreeing with scripture when it says

“this Man, delivered over by the predetermined plan and foreknowledge of God, you nailed to a cross by the hands of godless men and put Him to death.”
‭‭Acts‬ ‭2:23‬ ‭NASB‬‬

Again just because God planned it that way from the beginning of time and Christ from the beginning of time agreed to be tortured, humiliated and murdered by wicked people, does not mean God took personal pleasure in them doing it. It was done/allowed for a very Loving of man logical reason, but you are giving no logical reason or leaving the reason because God is blood thirsty.

 

[Hammster]

Again just because God planned it that way from the beginning of time and Christ from the beginning of time agreed to be tortured, humiliated and murdered by wicked people, does not mean God took personal pleasure in them doing it. It was done/allowed for a very Loving of man logical reason, but you are giving no logical reason or leaving the reason because God is blood thirsty.

Stop the goading with the bloodthirsty accusation. There's been nothing I've said to support that. I've given you specific scriptures that apparently fly in the face of your theology, so you explain them away.

Scripture doesn't say why it pleased God to crush Him. It just says it did. It doesn't say why there's no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. It just does. I know it doesn't fit with your misconstrued understanding of salvation that you base predominantly on the parable of the prodigal son (one that has nothing to do with salvation). But it's what scripture says.

 

[bling]

Scripture doesn't say why it pleased God to crush Him. It just says it did. It doesn't say why there's no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood. It just does. I know it doesn't fit with your misconstrued understanding of salvation that you base predominantly on the parable of the prodigal son (one that has nothing to do with salvation). But it's what scripture says.

If you are going to leave unexplained the quote: “it pleased God to crush Him” to be understood as it stands, you would have to conclude from that one statement: God takes personal pleasure in His torturing, humiliating and murdering of Christ.

So is that the meaning you would like us to draw?

Is that your personal understanding?

Interpreting that statement in light of other verses and looking at other English translations of that statement, explains how God pleasure in Christ’s obedience to allow His Crucifixion does not mean God takes personal pleasure in the actual torturing and murder of the innocent.

Again, taking the one statement: “there's no forgiveness of sin without the shedding of blood” suggest God is blood thirsty and must have blood to forgive, when the context is talking about blood being used to cleanse everything Holy.

One has the blood for God (who does not need anything) and the other way of looking at it is to have the blood for us. So who needs the blood?