To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

Der Alte · Jun 18, 2017

ClementofA said:
Just as i implied. In post #410 you quote Rev.6:8 & state:
"The two sentient beings I call the angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended."
So again:
According to you "hell" in Revelation 20:14 refers to a "sentient being" who will be tormented for all eternity. This "hell" person, therefore, will not pass away.
But according to the Jews, "hell shall pass away".
So if Revelation 20:14 refers to a place named "hell" passing away, then are you not wrong in your view that the "hell" of the verse will last forever?

The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms “the lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “the lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” in vs. 5 Jesus said “Behold I make all things new.” “No more death””all things new” but 3 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:5 And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Evidently you posted the verse to show support for the Pharisees' belief that "hell shall pass away", yet your own interpretation of the verse opposes a Pharisaical interpretation of the verse.
Moreover, if "hell shall pass away", what does that say about Jesus' warnings about "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, etc)? That they refer to places of temporary punishment, not "eternal" punishments in "unquenchable" fires that don't go out?

"Hades" translated "hell" in the NT can refer simply to the grave, it can refer to the place of punishment and it can refer to a sentient being mentioned in Rev 6:8 who follows Death who is riding on a horse they both are given power to kill. Context will determine which "hell" is being referred to.
.....My interpretation is the "hell" which is thrown into the LoF in Rev 20:14 is the sentient being in Rev 6:8, which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence and leaves the place of punishment or the grave not in the LoF. Ergo no contradiction.

ClementofA · Jun 22, 2017

Der Alter said:
Please show me where any verse in Revelations says that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] then they die?

Things don't die, so to ask for that is asking the impossible.

The "lake of fire" is said to be "the second death". That being thrown into a lake of fire causes a second death seems like an obvious possible interpretation. Being cast into such a lake could easily kill a mortal, obviously. And since the mortal had died before, this would be the second time they've died. Hence "second death".

Is there a better interpretation of the term "second death"? In your entire post i don't recall you ever offering such an explanation. Nor even stating what it means.

Der Alter said:
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
100% of of mankind has sinned, the wages of sin is death, it is appointed unto all, 100%, of mankind to die then the judgment. Where does scripture say after the judgment some people die again?

Hebrews 9:27 doesn't say humans are appointed to die ONLY once. It doesn't say they cannot die a second time. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

Where does scripture say after the judgment some people DONT die again? What is the second death?

What do Romans 3:23 & 6:23 have to do with anything?

Der Alter said:
Everybody is resurrected.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Awake to everlasting contempt not awake then dead again.

It doesn't say they can't die again or are raised with immortality.

How long "everlasting" (OLAM) is here for the unrighteous is not revealed. For Jonah OLAM was about 3 days. The unrighteous will not be resurrected till after the millennial eon (or OLAM) of 1000 years. This is the second general resurrection (Revelation 20:4b-6), the resurrection to the great white throne judgement, associated with the second death, the lake of fire. Those who awake to this judgement may experience "shame" and/or "contempt" based on their giving an account of themselves to God & their works by which they'll be judged. Those not found in the book of life at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death. Nothing here denies that the humans cast into the lake fire will not experience a second death of the same type as their first death.

Der Alter said:
The lake of fire passages, in context.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet
are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Nothing in your post has proven that the humans cast into the lake fire will not experience a "second death" of the same type as their first death.

Rev.20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Revelation 20:5 does not say they are raised to immortality.

Der Alter said:
.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The false prophets' body may have died or he may be a super human who is not subject to death as long as God wills him to be chastened for his own good.

Der Alter said:
There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Nothing other than the obvious interpretation given we know the lake of fire IS the second death.

Things don't die. Neither do spirit beings, e.g, Satan, suffer physical death. They are not human mortals. So when Satan is said to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10), the lake of fire is never once called the second death. But in the context of the general assembly of humans being cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:13-15; Rev.21:8), the lake of fire is always called the second death. That is because human mortals can physicly die, but spirit beings cannot.

Der Alter said:
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.

Death being thrown into the lake of fire is figurative language probably best interpreted as meaning the lake of fire will be the only place in the universe where there will be death. Because those cast there will become dead because of the fire. And since death is found nowhere else in the universe, it is an obvious interpretation.

Additionally the same language is used of both death and those mortal humans who suffer death in the fire; both are said to be "cast" into the lake of fire. As one goes, so goes the other.

Der Alter said:
Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The two sentient beings I call the angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

The death & hell (Hades) of Revelation 20:13, along with the sea, give up the dead that are in them via resurrection. Then death & Hades are cast into the lake of fire (v.14). Death, hell & the sea are not "sentient beings", since "sentient beings" don't have masses of humans inside of them. The death, hell & sea of the context (v.13) do have multidudes of human beings inside them. So they are not "sentient beings".

Der Alter said:
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” but 4 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

If, as you claim, Revelation 21:4 means there is no more death in the lake of fire (LOF), then the same verse means there is no more pain in the LOF. Is that your belief?

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." (Revelation 21:5)

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and [those that are] upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, to the ages of ages. (Revelation 5:13, Darby)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Galilee63 · Jun 23, 2017

Jesus Divine Mercy our Lord delivered Himself to hundreds of His Saints and Saint Faustina speaks of Heaven, Hell and Purgatory - Jesus speaks these Holy Words all reflected in His Holy Word both the Old Testament and New Testament

I am sorry all of the Saints cannot be wrong each Century on this subject and it is the Saints mentioned in Revelations highly spoken of by God our Heavenly Father.

Once hearts have received Jesus into them profoundly focussing on Jesus and His Life and Bitter Passion, The Holy Spirit illuminates our hearts and souls about Heaven Hell and Purgatory.

Der Alte · Jun 23, 2017

ClementofA said:
Things don't die, so to ask for that is asking the impossible.

Right! Although we often speak of things dying e.g. "my car died,""my computer died" etc. In Revelation the devil, the beast and the false prophet are living sentient beings who speak move, act etc. one may nit pick and say "they can't die," without any scriptural evidence, but they can can cease to exist and to a first century person that would appear to be death.

The "lake of fire" is said to be "the second death". That being thrown into a lake of fire causes a second death seems like an obvious possible interpretation. Being cast into such a lake could easily kill a mortal, obviously. And since the mortal had died before, this would be the second time they've died. Hence "second death".

Right! Speculation "seems like an obvious,""could easily,""obviously" But the scripture never says anyone/anything is thrown into the LoF then they die. The only thing which is specifically stated will happen in the Lof. "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 2:10

Is there a better interpretation of the term "second death"? In your entire post i don't recall you ever offering such an explanation. Nor even stating what it means.

Obviously you did not read my post because i did give an explanation. The terms "the lake of fire is the second death" and "the second death is the lake of fire" are interchangeable.

Hebrews 9:27 doesn't say humans are appointed to die ONLY once. It doesn't say they cannot die a second time. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

What does the word "once" mean? Does "once" actually mean "possibly more than once?"

Where does scripture say after the judgment some people DONT die again? What is the second death?

I have already addressed the second death. Where does scripture actually say that anyone dies a second time. Hint, it doesn't!

What do Romans 3:23 & 6:23 have to do with anything? It doesn't say they can't die again or are raised with immortality.

It has been about 2700 years +/- and Daniel 12:2 still reads "many...shall awake to everlasting contempt" and 10k years times 10k years from now it will still say the same. Where is it written that those mentioned in Daniel die a second time?

How long "everlasting" (OLAM) is here for the unrighteous is not revealed. For Jonah OLAM was about 3 days. The unrighteous will not be resurrected till after the millennial eon (or OLAM) of 1000 years. This is the second general resurrection (Revelation 20:4b-6), the resurrection to the great white throne judgement, associated with the second death, the lake of fire. Those who awake to this judgement may experience "shame" and/or "contempt" based on their giving an account of themselves to God & their works by which they'll be judged. Those not found in the book of life at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death. Nothing here denies that the humans cast into the lake fire will not experience a second death of the same type as their first death.

The first death resulted in a resurrection so the second death must also result in a resurrection. What happens then? Scripture? The Jewish scholars who translated the 225 BC LX and the 1917 JPS knew what the word "olam" means.

JPS Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.
LXX Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.

That a word is sometimes used hyperbolically does not change the inherent meaning. FYI hyperbolically is the adjective form of the word hyperbole. I can define hyperbole for you if you wish. In English eternity, forever means exactly that although a person might say "I went to a restaurant and had to wait in line forever.' That does not change the meaning of the word eternity.

Nothing in your post has proven that the humans cast into the lake fire will not experience a "second death" of the same type as their first death.

I can't prove a negative thus the burden is on you to prove that those thrown into the LoF die a second time

Rev.20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

What is you point?

Revelation 20:5 does not say they are raised to immortality.

What is your point?

The false prophets' body may have died or he may be a super human who is not subject to death as long as God wills him to be chastened for his own good.

More speculation "may have died""he may be a super human". The verse does not permit an interpretation "may have died."

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Death being thrown into the lake of fire is figurative language probably best interpreted as meaning the lake of fire will be the only place in the universe where there will be death.

When it is convenient and fits one's assumptions/presuppositions then a Bible statement is "figurative." Was "hell" literally thrown in to the LoF or is that figurative too? If "hell" in Rev 20:14 is the grave or the place of punishment it could be literally thrown into the LoF. I gave a scriptural explanation for Rev 20:14 which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence.

Additionally the same language is used of both death and those mortal humans who suffer death in the fire; both are said to be "cast" into the lake of fire. As one goes, so goes the other.

Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical form. It cannot be literally thrown anywhere. It is not a living being therefore it cannot die. It has never died a first time therefore it cannot die a second time.

The death & hell (Hades) of Revelation 20:13, along with the sea, give up the dead that are in them via resurrection. Then death & Hades are cast into the lake of fire (v.14). Death, hell & the sea are not "sentient beings", since "sentient beings" don't have masses of humans inside of them. The death, hell & sea of the context (v.13) do have multidudes of human beings inside them. So they are not "sentient beings".

Pushing one's agenda while ignoring what I post because it proves, from scripture, that agenda is false. Are there or are there not two sentient beings in Rev 6:8 one named "Death"" and the other named "Hell" referred to with personal pronouns "his,""him," " them" and they are given power to kill?

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

"Death" i.e. the point of time end of life cannot be literally thrown anywhere. The "Death and "Hell" in vs. 6:8 can be thrown into the LoF.

If, as you claim, Revelation 21:4 means there is no more death in the lake of fire (LOF), then the same verse means there is no more pain in the LOF. Is that your belief?

I didn't say no more death. I said there is no scripture which says anyone or anything thrown into the LoF then they die.
Rev 21:13 is after 5:13 you have reversed them here, evidently to better support your assumptions/presuppositions. I am putting them in their proper order.

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and [those that are] upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, to the ages of ages. (Revelation 5:13, Darby)

In The Book of Rev. John uses the phrases "after this,""after these things.""after that" two times each which indicates that there is an order in the book. One cannot arbitrarily take a verse written later and place it before another one just to support their assumptions/presuppositions.

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true." (Revelation 21:5)

Now let us read this vs. in context.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Note vs. 4 a voice out of heaven speaking, "There shall be no more death" Then vs. 5 Jesus is speaking "Behold I make all things new." We see "No more death""all things new" but in vs. 8 there are groups of people being thrown into the LoF which is the second death. Rev 21:5-9 is a continuous narrative by Jesus. We cannot legitimately switch anything around.

ClementofA · Jun 23, 2017

Der Alter said:
I didn't say no more death.

Here's what you posted re "no more death":

Der Alter said:
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” but 4 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Then you should also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alte · Jun 23, 2017

ClementofA said:
Here's what you posted re "no more death":
According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Then you should also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire.

Please show me where I said "there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire?" If memory serves I'm fairly certain I quoted Rev 21:4 and vs. 5 and I also quoted vs. 8. Why haven't you addressed what I did actually say and all the vss. I posted? Instead of putting words in my mouth I did not say. And Rev 21:4-5, 8 are still after 5:13.

ClementofA · Jun 23, 2017

Der Alter said:
Please show me where I said "there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire?"

If it doesn't follow from what you said, prove otherwise, or retract your argument.

Der Alter said:
I didn't say no more death.

Here's what you posted re "no more death":

Der Alter said:
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” but 4 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Then you should also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire.

"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
Obviously you did not read my post because i did give an explanation. The terms "the lake of fire is the second death" and "the second death is the lake of fire" are interchangeable.

This still does not give your interpretation why the lake of fire is called the second death. Why not just say they are cast into the lake of fire & forget about calling it the 2nd death?

Also, the Bible does not say they are interchangable. A dog is an animal, but is an animal a dog. Dog and animal is not equivalent. Scripture says the lake of fire is the second death. It doesn't say the second death is the lake of fire.

Der Alter said:
What does the word "once" mean? Does "once" actually mean "possibly more than once?"

Heb.9:27 says it is appointed to men once to die. Does that deny men can die twice? No. Does it say "only" once? No. If New England is appointed to play the Buffalo Bills twice, does that deny they won't meet again in the playoffs? No. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

Der Alter said:
More speculation "may have died""he may be a super human". The verse does not permit an interpretation "may have died."

It does permit an interpretation that his physical body "may have died". You can't prove otherwise.

Der Alter said:
Was "hell" literally thrown in to the LoF or is that figurative too? If "hell" in Rev 20:14 is the grave or the place of punishment it could be literally thrown into the LoF. I gave a scriptural explanation for Rev 20:14 which does not involve mixing literal and figurative in one sentence.

Hab. 3:6...which uses of OLAM, say you, are literal & hyperbolic? Is there both in the same verse? Can parables mix literal & figurative in the same parable?

Der Alter said:
Death is the point in time end of life it has no physical form. It cannot be literally thrown anywhere. It is not a living being therefore it cannot die. It has never died a first time therefore it cannot die a second time.

When mortal humans are cast into the lake of fire, the fire kills them, thus causing their "second death". Since there are no dead anywhere else in the universe, death is said to be cast into the LOF; IOW it is confined there & nowhere else in the universe. It's simple & makes perfect sense.

The "lake of fire" is said to be "the second death". That being thrown into a lake of fire causes a second death seems like an obvious interpretation. Being cast into such a lake could easily kill a mortal, obviously. And since the mortal had died before, this would be the second time they've died. Hence "second death".

Der Alter said:
Are there or are there not two sentient beings in Rev 6:8 one named "

Der Alter said:
Death"" and the other named "Hell" referred to with personal pronouns "his,""him," " them" and they are given power to kill?

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
"Death" i.e. the point of time end of life cannot be literally thrown anywhere. The "Death and "Hell" in vs. 6:8 can be thrown into the LoF.

Where do we read death and hell are alive or tormented in the LOF? Nowhere.

The death & hell (Hades) of Revelation 20:13, along with the sea, give up the dead that are in them via resurrection. Then death & Hades are cast into the lake of fire (v.14). Death, hell & the sea are not "sentient beings", since "sentient beings" don't have masses of humans inside of them. The death, hell & sea of the context (v.13) do have multidudes of human beings inside them. So they are not "sentient beings".

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
Now let us read this vs. in context.

Revelation 21:4-5
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
(5) And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
Note vs. 4 a voice out of heaven speaking, "There shall be no more death" Then vs. 5 Jesus is speaking "Behold I make all things new." We see "No more death""all things new" but in vs. 8 there are groups of people being thrown into the LoF which is the second death. Rev 21:5-9 is a continuous narrative by Jesus. We cannot legitimately switch anything around.

According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Do you also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire?

A number of versions read at v.5 that God is "making" all things new. It sounds like it hasn't happened yet, but is an ongoing process.

Verse 4 speaks of things which "shall" be, not are. In a number of translations v.4 has the word "first" instead of "former". What is this "first"? Does it refer back to v.1?

"for the former things are passed away] for should probably be omitted; and the word for “former” is literally, first." Revelation 21:4 Commentaries: and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

The word "things" (21:4) is not in the Greek. The ending of v.4 without man's added punctuations, according to the following link, has the words: first/chief to go away/go after.
Revelation 21:4 Lexicon: and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."

Is "all" already made completely new (21:5), immortal & incorruptible when nations still need healing from the leaves of trees (22:2; Ezek.47:12)? Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)?

Verse 8 refers back to what already transpired in Revelation 20:13-15. And gives additional info re what persons will be cast into the lake of fire, calling it the second death. If death is gone (21:4), then why does the author refer to death again in 21:8?

It is a mistake to assume chapters 20-22 of Revelation are written in chronological order.

If everyone's destinies are finalized at 21:4-5, then why does God say in verse 6 "to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely"? Because those in the lake of fire (21:8; 20:13-15) can still be saved? The gates into the holy city are never shut (21:25).

If 21:4 refers only to the saved at that time, verse 5 says in various translations God is "making ALL" new. And there is still death which hasn't been abolished yet (1 Cor.15:22-28).

1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
The Jewish scholars who translated the 225 BC LX and the 1917 JPS knew what the word "olam" means.

JPS Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproaches and everlasting abhorrence.
LXX Dan 12:2
(2) And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to reproach and everlasting shame.
That a word is sometimes used hyperbolically does not change the inherent meaning. FYI hyperbolically is the adjective form of the word hyperbole. I can define hyperbole for you if you wish. In English eternity, forever means exactly that although a person might say "I went to a restaurant and had to wait in line forever.' That does not change the meaning of the word eternity.

The context supports the view that both the life & the punishment referred to in v.2 are of finite duration (OLAM), while v.3 speaks of those who will be for OLAM "and further".

2 From those sleeping in the soil of the ground many shall awake, these to eonian life
and these to reproach for eonian repulsion." 3 The intelligent shall warn as the warning
of the atmosphere, and those justifying many are as the stars for the eon and further."
(Dan.12:2-3, CLOT)

The Hebrew word for eonian (v.2) & eon (v.3) above is OLAM which is used of limited durations in the OT. In verse 3 of Daniel 12 are the words "OLAM and further" showing an example of its finite duration in the very next words after Daniel 12:2. Thus, in context, the OLAM occurences in v.2 should both be understood as being of finite duration.

Compare v.3:

l·oulm u·od
for·eon and·futurity

http://www.scripture4all.org/OnlineInterlinear/OTpdf/dan12.pdf

OJB Hashem shall reign l’olam va’ed.
Yahweh shall rule to the eon and beyond (Exo 15:18)
Universal Version Bible The Torah By William Petr

Habbukah 3:6:

JPS Tanakh 1917
He standeth, and shaketh the earth, He beholdeth, and maketh the nations to tremble; And the everlasting[olam] mountains are dashed in pieces, The ancient[olam] hills do bow; His goings are as of old[olam].

Young's Literal Translation
He hath stood, and He measureth earth, He hath seen, and He shaketh off nations, And scatter themselves do mountains of antiquity, Bowed have the hills of old, The ways of old are His.

CLV
He stands and is measuring the earth; he sees and is letting loose the nations. And the mountain ranges of futurity are scattering; the eonian hills bow down; his goings are eonian.

Daniel 12:2:

Young's Literal Translation
'And the multitude of those sleeping in the dust of the ground do awake, some to life
age-during, and some to reproaches -- to abhorrence age-during. (Dan.12:2)

Rotherham
and, many of the sleepers in the dusty ground, shall awake,—these, [shall be] to age-
abiding life, but, those, to reproach, and age-abiding abhorrence; (Dan.12:2)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
Right! Speculation "seems like an obvious,""could easily,""obviously" But the scripture never says anyone/anything is thrown into the LoF then they die. The only thing which is specifically stated will happen in the Lof. "shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever." Revelation 2:10

and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”
2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

Der Alte · Jun 24, 2017

ClementofA said:
If it doesn't follow from what you said, prove otherwise, or retract your argument.
Here's what you posted re "no more death":
According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Then you should also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire.
"And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away." (Revelation 21:4)

ClementofA said:
According to you v.4 proves there is no more death anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire. Do you also believe v.4 proves there is no more pain anywhere in the universe, including the lake of fire?
A number of versions read at v.5 that God is "making" all things new. It sounds like it hasn't happened yet, but is an ongoing process.
Verse 4 speaks of things which "shall" be, not are. In a number of translations v.4 has the word "first" instead of "former". What is this "first"? Does it refer back to v.1?
"for the former things are passed away] for should probably be omitted; and the word for “former” is literally, first." Revelation 21:4 Commentaries: and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
The word "things" (21:4) is not in the Greek. The ending of v.4 without man's added punctuations, according to the following link, has the words: first/chief to go away/go after.

ClementofA said:
Revelation 21:4 Lexicon: and He will wipe away every tear from their eyes; and there will no longer be any death; there will no longer be any mourning, or crying, or pain; the first things have passed away."
Is "all" already made completely new (21:5), immortal & incorruptible when nations still need healing from the leaves of trees (22:2; Ezek.47:12)? Has death and reigning been abolished (1 Cor.15:24-26) while reigning continues (22:3-5 & 21:23,24)?
Verse 8 refers back to what already transpired in Revelation 20:13-15. And gives additional info re what persons will be cast into the lake of fire, calling it the second death. If death is gone (21:4), then why does the author refer to death again in 21:8?
It is a mistake to assume chapters 20-22 of Revelation are written in chronological order.
If everyone's destinies are finalized at 21:4-5, then why does God say in verse 6 "to him who is thirsting, will give of the fountain of the water of the life freely"? Because those in the lake of fire (21:8; 20:13-15) can still be saved? The gates into the holy city are never shut (21:25).
If 21:4 refers only to the saved at that time, verse 5 says in various translations God is "making ALL" new. And there is still death which hasn't been abolished yet (1 Cor.15:22-28).
1 Cor 15:28 When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.

I have already addressed all of this some of it more than once. Move on find some new arguments. People can find versions which say what they want to hear. For example the NWT translated by JWs to support their doctrine. The JST translated by the Mormons to support their doctrines. Translations by individuals such as Rotherham and Young's clearly reflect their biases.

ClementofA · Jun 24, 2017

Der Alter said:
People can find versions which say what they want to hear.

Satan hates mankind. What version do you suppose he would like people to hear? Those that speak of people being punished forever? Who is the author of all sadism in the world? Certainly Satan wants to put God, Who is Love, in the worst light possible. There is no better way of doing this than having Bible versions that depict God as being the monster that Satan is.

Der Alter said:
For example the NWT translated by JWs to support their doctrine.

The NWT follows the same "everlasting" mistranslation as the tradition of "the church" of Inquisitions, Crusades, dark ages & burning free thinkers at the stake. JWs also believe in the anti-Scriptural "everlasting punishment".

Der Alter said:
The JST translated by the Mormons to support their doctrines.

The JST follows the same "everlasting" mistranslation as the tradition of "the church" of Inquisitions, Crusades, dark ages & burning free thinkers at the stake.

Der Alter said:
Translations by individuals such as Rotherham and Young's clearly reflect their biases.

Did you provide any evidence in support of this unsupported assertion? No.

Considering that the Greek word aionios has a range of meanings, your reputable biased men should not have rendered the word in Mt.25:46 by their theological opinions. Thus they did not translate the word, but interpreted it. OTOH the versions i posted gave faithful translations & left the interpreting up to the readers as to what specific meaning within the "range of meanings" the word holds in the specific context. What your biased scholars have done is change the words of Scriptures to their own opinions, which is shameful.

"Add not to His words, lest He reason with thee, And thou hast been found false."(Prov.30:6)

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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