To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

[ClementofA]

Jesus also said this.

Matthew 23:2-3
(2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
​

Excellent scripture why do you ignore certain scriptures? See e.g. Matt 23:2-3

Why do you post this irrelevant scripture? It is explained adequately at the following link in many comments. I'll give you a couple examples:

"Observe that He is here speaking of the Pharisees in their special capacity as teachers of the Mosaic law (Augustine, Calvin, Grotius, Bengel), so that His language is at variance neither with Matthew 16:6 nor with the axiom given in Matthew 15:13; Acts 5:29."

"Christ here recognises the legitimacy of the scribal function of interpretation in a broad way, which may appear too unqualified and incompatible with His teaching at other times (Matthew 15:1-20) (so Holtz., H. C.). Allowance must be made for Christ’s habit of unqualified statement, especially here when He is going to attack in an uncompromising manner the conduct of the Jewish doctors. He means: as teachers they have their place, but beware of following their example."

Matthew 23:3 Commentaries: therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.

"Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Mt.16:6)
Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Mt.16:12)

Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than human beings! (Acts 5:29)

“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher,... (Mt.23:8)
Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. (v.10)

13“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]b (Mt.23)

That sounds like the exclusive saved club you advocate. "You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces."

23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.

Where is justice & mercy in the endless torment doctrine the Pharisees taught?

33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9).

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Radrook]

Heaven is eternal
Hell is eternal

Now IF you knew for sure you were going to heaven, you would have no problem with the word eternal.

The reason that torture as punishment is considered cruel isn't because the ones evaluating it feel that they will not go to your heaven. There are atheists, agnostics, deists, and millions of Christians who consider torturing someone is cruel and the heaven issue doesn't even cross their minds. The United Nations condemns torture as punishment as immoral. According to you it must have been because they felt that they aren't going to heaven? That's ridiculous!

 

[Solomons Porch]

The reason that torture as punishment is considered cruel isn't because the ones evaluating it feel that they will not go to your heaven. There are atheists, agnostics, deists, and millions of Christians who consider torturing someone is cruel and the heaven issue doesn't even cross their minds. The United Nations condemns torture as punishment as immoral. According to you it must have been because they felt that they aren't going to heaven? That's ridiculous!

You lost me there pal try it again

 

[Radrook]

You lost me there pal try it again

What part don't you understand?

 

[Solomons Porch]

What part don't you understand?

Never mind have a great day

 

[Radrook]

Never mind have a great day

Goodbye and likewise.

 

[Der Alte]

Why do you post this irrelevant scripture? It is explained adequately at the following link in many comments. I'll give you a couple examples:
"Observe that He is here speaking of the Pharisees in their special capacity as teachers of the Mosaic law (Augustine, Calvin, Grotius, Bengel), so that His language is at variance neither with Matthew 16:6 nor with the axiom given in Matthew 15:13; Acts 5:29."
"Christ here recognises the legitimacy of the scribal function of interpretation in a broad way, which may appear too unqualified and incompatible with His teaching at other times (Matthew 15:1-20) (so Holtz., H. C.). Allowance must be made for Christ’s habit of unqualified statement, especially here when He is going to attack in an uncompromising manner the conduct of the Jewish doctors. He means: as teachers they have their place, but beware of following their example."
Matthew 23:3 Commentaries: therefore all that they tell you, do and observe, but do not do according to their deeds; for they say things and do not do them.
"Be careful," Jesus said to them. "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees and Sadducees." (Mt.16:6)
Then they understood that he was not telling them to guard against the yeast used in bread, but against the teaching of the Pharisees and Sadducees. (Mt.16:12)
Peter and the other apostles replied: "We must obey God rather than human beings! (Acts 5:29)
“But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher,... (Mt.23:8)
Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. (v.10)
13“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. [14]b (Mt.23)
That sounds like the exclusive saved club you advocate. "You shut the door of the kingdom of heaven in people’s faces."
23“Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You give a tenth of your spices—mint, dill and cumin. But you have neglected the more important matters of the law—justice, mercy and faithfulness. You should have practiced the latter, without neglecting the former.
Where is justice & mercy in the endless torment doctrine the Pharisees taught?
33 “You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9).
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

In another thread you accused me of copy/pasting someone else's work. That is all you have done here. I don't read or respond to long copy/pastes.

 

[HenryM]

But why is hell eternal? Why can't God just kill us or something. Why would he let someone be in torture and pain for eternity, why can't he just kill them?

My conclusion is that hell is not eternal torture. I don't say it's 100% so, but that's what I read in the Bible. Here's just a snippet of reasons:

- God promises eternal life to those who believe in Jesus Christ. That would mean that others don't get eternal life. If hell is for eternal torture, everybody gets eternal life.
- Revelation explains that every saved person will have access to the tree of life, and that's how one gets eternal life. There is no tree of life in hell.
- In Old Testament there is no concept of hell as eternal conscious torture. It would be rather strange if God for 4000 years didn't reveal to people that punishment for disobedeince is eternal torture. And we can't say that God changed the nature of hell, since God never changes.
- Most times in Psalms when death of godless person is described, it's described as state of death, nothingness, no life or thoughts, going back to dust, etc... not as eternal conscious torture.
- In New Testament hell is referenced as "second death".
- Jesus says "don't fear one who destroys body, fear One who can destroy both body and soul". That sounds like souls of unbelievers are going to be destroyed. Jesus also says that those who don't believe in Him won't pass from death to life, but will perish.
- Paul writes that punishment for sin is death. Others also write that punishment for sin is death, as God speaks to them, for example Ezekiel.
- "Eternal punishment" doesn't equal to eternal torture. Eternal punishment also means destroying one's soul, and never ever bringing it back to life again.
- Story of rich man and Lazarus is fifth in a row of parables from Luke's chapters 15 and 16, which explains some aspects of hell, but seems like it's not literal description nor does it exclusively describe eternal torture.
- Only 3 entities are explicitly told will go to hell to be tortured forever - satan, antichrist and false prophet.
- Word "forever", however, as used in original scripture, also means a long period of time, like an era, not only an indefinite period of time that never ends.
- Lake of fire is described as everlasting, but that doesn't mean that torture in that fire is everlasting (we know that in this world fire consumes and destroys completely). Jesus phrase about "worm that never dies" can also be explained in line with everlasting force of destruction, not everlasting torture. Additionaly, Bible mentions evelasting and unquenchable fires on earth that are obviously not active now. That could give clue for "everlasting fire" being active for long, but definite, period of time.
- God talks about punishment to the wicked as being utter destruction in fire, turning them to ashes: "You have defiled your sanctuaries by the multitude of your iniquities, by the iniquity of your traffic; therefore will I bring forth a fire from the middle of you, it shall devour you, and I will bring you to ashes on the earth in the sight of all them that behold you."
- There's mentioning that even hell itself will be destroyed. Revelation 20:14 says: "And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire." Paul says that "the last enemy that shall be destroyed is death." This could read that, ultimately, lake of fire will destroy everything that's not on God's side.
- Since world is as it is by God's will and in accordance to His plan, it makes more sense that those who are not saved are destroyed, and not tortured for ever. It also makes more sense, to me, with God who is love (1 John 4:8).

In my view, some people take this heavy subject rather lightly. Do they really study the subject thorougly, or do they just voice their opinions? When Jesus asks the Father to forgive people because they don't know what they are doing, that shows that what can be seen as one's choice is not based on knowledge. In other words, people can't really choose since they don't really know what they are choosing for or against. Jesus Himself says so - "they don't know what they are doing". Paul also, when he says that he saw things in Heaven that no human eyes have seen, and which were forbidden to him to share with others on earth. So, if eternal torture is true, that would mean that people are getting tortured for eternity based on their choice on subject they only had a slight understanding. That would put illogicality upon other illogicality of eternal torture.

Not to mention a problem of having Heaven where everybody is joyful and singing, while at the same time millions or billions of people on the other side are screaming in torture, for ever and ever, never to stop.

With all that said, I don't claim to know what the truth is. I can fully accept whatever the truth is. But to me, from this perspective and with this knowledge, it seems that hell is place where most or all souls who get there go to ultimately get destroyed. It doesn't mean there is no torment. But that torment probably ends at some point.

 

[Galilee63]

If you receive Jesus and Holy Spirit into your "Heart" you know because it is shown to you focussing on Jesus and His Bitter Passion Sorrows Agonies and His Sacred Holy Wounds all thru Jesus Holy Spirit and thru Mother Mary before during or after prayer in Holy Communion with Jesus and Holy Spirit

 

[Radrook]

In my view, some people take this heavy subject rather lightly. Do they really study the subject thorougly, or do they just voice their opinions? When Jesus asks the Father to forgive people because they don't know what they are doing, that shows that what can be seen as one's choice is not based on knowledge. In .

Not taken lightly at all.

My impression is that they are so scared spitless that they don't dare research lest their god take umbrage and decides that they deserve to be roasted alive for showing hubris.

 

[ClementofA]

In another thread you accused me of copy/pasting someone else's work. That is all you have done here. I don't read or respond to long copy/pastes.

That works for me.

OTOH maybe you'll have a response to this one:

Perhaps you should actually read my post to gain an understanding of what I said. The Greek word Hades, translated "hell" in some versions, is used in three different ways in the NT. It can refer to the grave. e.g. Acts 2:27, a fiery place of torment, e.g. Luke 16:23, and in one instance a sentient being is named "Hades/hell" e.g. Revelation 6:8. Which one of these did I specifically say was cast into the LOF?

Just as i implied. In post #410 you quote Rev.6:8 & state:

"The two sentient beings I call the angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended."

So again:

According to you "hell" in Revelation 20:14 refers to a "sentient being" who will be tormented for all eternity. This "hell" person, therefore, will not pass away.
But according to the Jews, "hell shall pass away".

So if Revelation 20:14 refers to a place named "hell" passing away, then are you not wrong in your view that the "hell" of the verse will last forever?

Evidently you posted the verse to show support for the Pharisees' belief that "hell shall pass away", yet your own interpretation of the verse opposes a Pharisaical interpretation of the verse.

Moreover, if "hell shall pass away", what does that say about Jesus' warnings about "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, etc)? That they refer to places of temporary punishment, not "eternal" punishments in "unquenchable" fires that don't go out?

 

[Radrook]

Oh, so fire insurance.

No need! They believe you are made impervious to being consumed by the flames in order for the pain to continue. If you were consumed then you would be destroyed and their would be nothing to torture.

 

[BukiRob]

I do not believe that the Bible is a holy text(or at least the new ones are not). As you can tell from my name i am not your typical christian. I have my own beliefs in God, but mine do not align with any faith or church. I am part of a minority group. I have one question for you though. What happened to all the other books in the Bible? There are supposed to be 84 books, yet there are only 66?

I stick with facts. We know from research that the Masoretic Text of the Tanakh compared with the dead sea scrolls are "nearly identical*"

* The approximately 1,700-year-old En-Gedi Scroll was found in 1970 but had not had its content reconstructed until 2016. Researchers were able to recover 35 complete and partial lines of text from the Book of Leviticus and the text deciphered is completely identical with the consonantal framework of the Masoretic Text.

No other book on earth has this level of literary purity and if you research this, you will find that the level of purity (meaning that the oldest copies are nearly identical to modern texts) between scripture and other books is not even remotely close.

As I see it, anything that does not harmonize with what is found in the Tanakh is an error. The Lord G-d does not change and any teaching or doctrine that teaches HE has done away with is decree's is almost surely false doctrine

 

[Der Alte]

That works for me.
OTOH maybe you'll have a response to this one:
Just as i implied. In post #410 you quote Rev.6:8 & state:
"The two sentient beings I call the angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended."
So again:
According to you "hell" in Revelation 20:14 refers to a "sentient being" who will be tormented for all eternity. This "hell" person, therefore, will not pass away.

That is not what I said! Go back and read my post, all of my post, in context hopefully you can get it right.

But according to the Jews, "hell shall pass away".
So if Revelation 20:14 refers to a place named "hell" passing away, then are you not wrong in your view that the "hell" of the verse will last forever?
Evidently you posted the verse to show support for the Pharisees' belief that "hell shall pass away", yet your own interpretation of the verse opposes a Pharisaical interpretation of the verse.

Still misrepresenting what I said. Read every place where I mention hell and see if you can get it right. I'll give you a hint the number "3."

Moreover, if "hell shall pass away", what does that say about Jesus' warnings about "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, etc)? That they refer to places of temporary punishment, not "eternal" punishments in "unquenchable" fires that don't go

out?

Since you seem to have so much trouble getting straight what I actually said perhaps you should quote the post in its entirety then address your observations/question to a specific statement of mine.

 

[ClementofA]

Still misrepresenting what I said.

What misrepresentation? When someone is repeatedly accused of such & the accuser is asked "what misrepresentation" repeatedly, but the accuser refuses to explain, then why should anyone believe the accuser? Would you? It looks like he is hiding something.

 

[joshua 1 9]

a finite time ago in the past

If you study Gerold Schroeder and Einstein there was a point in time when time and matter took a hold of each other. God is outside of time, He is the same yesterday, today and tomorrow. Jesus is the Alpha and the Omega, His is the beginning and the end of time. He knows the end from the beginning.

 

[Der Alte]

What misrepresentation? When someone is repeatedly accused of such & the accuser is asked "what misrepresentation" repeatedly, but the accuser refuses to explain, then why should anyone believe the accuser? Would you? It looks like he is hiding something.

You claimed I said this. I did not say any of this.

1. According to you "hell" in Revelation 20:14 refers to a "sentient being" who will be tormented for all eternity. This "hell" person, therefore, will not pass away.
2. Evidently you posted the verse to show support for the Pharisees' belief that "hell shall pass away", yet your own interpretation of the verse opposes a Pharisaical interpretation of the verse.
3. Moreover, if "hell shall pass away", what does that say about Jesus' warnings about "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, etc)? That they refer to places of temporary punishment, not "eternal" punishments in "unquenchable" fires that don't go out.​

 

[ClementofA]

You claimed I said this. I did not say any of this.

1. According to you "hell" in Revelation 20:14 refers to a "sentient being" who will be tormented for all eternity. This "hell" person, therefore, will not pass away.
2. Evidently you posted the verse to show support for the Pharisees' belief that "hell shall pass away", yet your own interpretation of the verse opposes a Pharisaical interpretation of the verse.
3. Moreover, if "hell shall pass away", what does that say about Jesus' warnings about "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, etc)? That they refer to places of temporary punishment, not "eternal" punishments in "unquenchable" fires that don't go out.​

And yet you have not explained how any of that is not true. By stating what you do believe & how it differs from what i stated. So, until that happens, i'll stand by what i said. If & when i'm proven incorrect, i'll be willing to admit to it or drop the matter. Otherwise, whenever you post re the Pharisees' beliefs allegedly aligning with Scripture, expect to see more of the same.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish myths, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14). Jesus said re the Pharisees: "...in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 

[Der Alte]

...

 

[ClementofA]

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
​

That didn't answer the question. So i'll take it from your answer that you believe Jesus' teaching is against the teaching of the Pharisees that you gave. I said re Luke 16:19-31:

"According to the Jews (Pharisees) you love to quote thinking it supports your views, many of the wicked who descend to Gehenna/hell will come up again. Does this passage disprove what the Jews said? Or do you still insist that Jesus never contradicted their beliefs?"


​