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To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

SkyWriting

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Death is dead. That which is dead is not alive and is therefore NOT CONCEOUS

Yikes! Not have Bible?

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of ...
... The lake of fire is the second death. .... ... This lake of fire is the second death. ...



Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first ...
... The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. ...



Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit ...
... The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. ... Whoever
is victorious will not be harmed by the second death. ...



Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the ...
... lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." ... ...


Revelation 14:11 And the smoke of their torment will rise for ever ...


Luke 16:23 In Hades, where he was in torment, he looked up and saw ...
Abraham far away, with Lazarus by his side. ...
 
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Der Alte

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Wrong yet again. The PUNISHMENT indeed is eternal. You have yet to explain how the sinner is alive when scripture plainly states that the result of the sinner being cast into the lake of fire is DEATH.
Please show me where any verse in Revelations says that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] then they die?
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
100% of of mankind has sinned, the wages of sin is death, it is appointed unto all, 100%, of mankind to die then the judgment. Where does scripture say after the judgment some people die again?
eagerly await your answer. Considering that is, as I recall, the 3rd or 4th time Ive asked you this question and you have NEVER answered it.
I have answered this many times over in this and other forums. If you haven't seen it that is not my problem.
Furthermore, please explain how it is that the righteous are raised from the dead where they will put on IMMORTALITY (eternal life) and their bodies are transformed into bodies that are incorruptible. Since we MUST PUT ON IMMORTALITY, we are by extension MORTAL apart from Messiah giving the gift of immortality. One does not take on something you already have....
Everybody is resurrected.

Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Awake to everlasting contempt not awake then dead again.
Man is Mortal and as such when they are cast into the LOF they DIE that which is DEAD is DEAD, NOT ALIVE
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy
is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet
are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The two sentient beings I call the angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “
there shall be no more death” but 4 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
 
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ClementofA

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Wrong! The quote I referred to was allegedly from William Barclay. The Vincent reference was a footnote by the Garry Beauchemin, who put the book together.

What i said wasn't wrong. It was a question. Questions are seldom wrong. But the reference you supplied was the wrong one for the quote.

That is why real books, by real scholars are reviewed by competent scholars to ensure, as much as possible, that errors are corrected.

Oh really. Tell me what real scholars reviewed the Bible? Why are there so many differences between the ancient manuscripts?
What scholars reviewed the works of Origen & other Early Church Father Christians who believed in ultimate Universal Reconciliation? How many errors do the so called "real books" you refer to contain relative to other books? Maybe someone should start reviewing your posts before you click the "post reply" button, considering all the errors they contain. Even after your cut & paste posts full of quotes of others, & few words of yours, are proven wrong you continue to post the same.


Many of the "references" in your book do not provide enough information for proper research, i.e. title, author, publisher, publishing date and page numbers.

If you want to waste your time, go ahead & try to prove that, while several of my posts (#367 & #360 this thread ) refuting your ideas about the Jews remain unanswered. BTW, quotes from many sources can often be found easily, in a matter of seconds, by a simple google search. And where did i quote anything from that book on this forum that could not be found in its original source? While you try to shoot the messenger, the message remain unchallenged.



You still don't comprehend the difference between quoting primary standard sources, such as an encyclopedia and the Talmud which are scholastically recognized and an obviously self published book by a person with no stated qualifications.

Firstly, a biased opinion (i.e. so-called translation) is not a "primary source". The original language document is. Secondly the Jewish Encyclopedia article about hell you refer to is not a "primary source". It cites some primary sources, but when have you ever posted them? Thirdly, the book you refer to is largely just a compilation of the opinions of learned men and scholars. Anyone can do that, even you, as is evident from your many posts here that could easily fill a book or two. Even though, you, too, are not a specialist scholar. There's seem to be a lot of "the pot calling the kettle black" going on here lately.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

 
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Der Alte

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Wrong. But we have butted heads over this topic before. Pointless to discuss this with you.
No one has ascended into heaven except he who descended from heaven, the Son of Man.
And we will likely continue to butt heads when I provide credible, verifiable, historical information and in return I get unsupported opinion.
It's funny that you a goy, are going to "teach" on what the "correct" view of the Talmud and by extension, what the Jewish view on the afterlife is... unfortunately for you, that view is NOT the prevalent view. Sadducees, for example, did not believe in the resurrection while the Pharisee's DID believe in the resurrection, and in fact, Yeshua would have been considered a Pharisee by his teachings.
The so-called "prevalent view" is irrelevant to this discussion. Many Jews know what their forefathers taught and will acknowledge their beliefs have been changed.
I am well aware that the Pharisees' and Saduccees' beliefs on some things were different. That does not change the fact that in the historical sources I quoted there was recorded a belief in hell. Which has never been refuted. .....That belief was substantial enough that an entire article in the Jewish Encyclopedia was devoted to it.
......I am not teaching anything. What I have done is quote directly from credible, verifiable, historical Jewish writings. No amount of argumentation will change what those sources record.

The CLEAR unmistakable view found in the Talmud teaches the Olam Ha Ba: the World to Come, although this term is also used to refer to the messianic age.
Do you have a point here?
MUCH of the Talmud contains SERIOUS Error as it is not a proper view of Scripture. The unmistable, clear OT view is there is 0 mention of Hell. NONE what so EVER.
I certainly appreciate you sharing your unsupported opinions on these two points. But I prefer credible, verifiable, historical evidence which unfortunately I have not seen from anyone participating in this discussion.
As I have shown many Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol. Nothing that anyone can say will change that.
While sheol sometimes refers to the grave, it also refers to a place from which a child can be delivered by proper parental punishment.

Proverbs 23:14 Thou shalt beat him with the rod, and shalt deliver his soul from hell.[sheol]
 
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ClementofA

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As I have shown many Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol. Nothing that anyone can say will change that.

Is it your belief that Gehenna is Sheol?

Do you believe that Gehenna is a place of unending punishment?
 
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Der Alte

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What i said wasn't wrong. It was a question. Questions are seldom wrong. But the reference you supplied was the wrong one for the quote.
Your "question" was in response to my statement that the Barclay quote was not properly cited. You said
"Didn't you just post the answers to your own questions above? Namely:
"Vincent, Marvin. Word Studies in the New Testament- 2nd Ed. Mclean, VA: Mcdonald Publishing. 1888. Vol. I 40."
Which implied that the Marvin footnote was the proper citation of the Barclay quote. Please read your own source. Gerry Beauchemin quoted something allegedly written by William Barclay at the bottom of that quote was a superscript "1 appendix VI" which I included with the Barclay quote.
Oh really. Tell me what real scholars reviewed the Bible? Why are there so many differences between the ancient manuscripts? What scholars reviewed the works of Origen & other Early Church Father Christians who believed in ultimate Universal Reconciliation? How many errors do the so called "real books" you refer to contain relative to other books? Maybe someone should start reviewing your posts before you click the "post reply" button, considering all the errors they contain. Even after your cut & paste posts full of quotes of others, & few words of yours, are proven wrong you continue to post the same.
You have never proved anything wrong that I posted!
Your question about who reviewed the Bible, Origen, ECF ets. ridiculous. Those are the primary sources under discussion. It appears that someone thinks they do not have to provide credible, verifiable, evidence to support their heterodox beliefs because the writers of the Bible and the ECF did not provide sources. That is an absurd position.

If you want to waste your time, go ahead & try to prove that, while several of my posts (#367 & #360 this thread ) refuting your ideas about the Jews remain unanswered.[ BTW, quotes from many sources can often be found easily, in a matter of seconds, by a simple google search. And where did i quote anything from that book on this forum that could not be found in its original source? While you try to shoot the messenger, the message remain unchallenged.
Afraid not! I have addressed all the specious arguments, in posts 360 and 367, in my other posts. As to all these claims and assertions. I unfortunately have studied at the college and post graduate level and many times my work required me to write something for a superior's consideration and approval. I do things right!
.....I can just see me saying to a professor or a staff level military superior "quotes from many sources can often be found easily, in a matter of seconds, by a simple google search" I would have been kicked out of school and fired if I had given the kind of answers I see here.
Firstly, a biased opinion (i.e. so-called translation) is not a "primary source".
Yes it is! If I am quoting and discussing what an English translation of the Hebrew OT or Talmud says, that is my primary source. I also quoted from the Jewish Encyclopedia [JE] and discussed what it said, therefore those were my primary sources.
.....Your book "Hope Beyond Hell" is your primary source, anything the writer Gerry Beauchemin quotes from another writing is a secondary or even a Tertiary source

The original language document is. Secondly the Jewish Encyclopedia article about hell you refer to is not a "primary source".
Wrong as I said just above.
It cites some primary sources, but when have you ever posted them?
The primary sources cited in the JE and the Talmud were scripture. I certainly hope you have a Bible and know how to look up the scripture in it.
Thirdly, the book you refer to is largely just a compilation of the opinions of learned men and scholars. Anyone can do that, even you, as is evident from your many posts here that could easily fill a book or two.
Wrong! No more than the Encyclopedia Britannica or Americana is largely just a compilation of the opinions of learned men and scholars. The JE is a standard reference resource written and compiled by Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars, they didn't just make stuff up the sources they consulted are identified in the articles. They are called bibliographies.
.....Seems like a whole lot of excuse making trying to make a privately published book, by a man with zero qualifications in the field, equal or superior to the JE and the Talmud.

Even though, you, too, are not a specialist scholar. There's seem to be a lot of "the pot calling the kettle black" going on here lately.
I have never claimed to be a specialist scholar, that is why I quote from credible, verifiable, historical sources. Pity that some people don't know the difference.
.....An analogy, if I want medical, legal, accounting etc. advice/information I do not go to the website of some person with zero or unknown qualifications in those fields. I go to specialists in the respective fields who have studied under tested and supervised conditions, who have licenses, belong to professional organizations such as AMA, Bar association etc.
 
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Der Alte

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Is it your belief that Gehenna is Sheol?
Do you believe that Gehenna is a place of unending punishment
?
Gehinnom and sheol are Hebrew words. What do the historical sources, i.e. JE and the Talmud, say the Jews understood about the two words?
 
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ClementofA

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Gehinnom and sheol are Hebrew words. What do the historical sources, i.e. JE and the Talmud, say the Jews understood about the two words?


How about a simple yes or no to each of the two questions i asked:

1.Is it your belief that Gehenna is Sheol?

2. Do you believe that Gehenna is a place of unending punishment?

Is it you don't know the answer? Then you don't know if the Jews were in error!

My questions were in response to your bold assertion that:

As I have shown many Jews before and during the time of Jesus believed in a place of eternal, unending, everlasting fiery punishment and they called it both Gehinnom and Sheol. Nothing that anyone can say will change that.
Why should anyone care what the Pharisees believed?

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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ClementofA

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You have never proved anything wrong that I posted!

Post numbers 367 & 360 in this thread, amongst dozens of others. Shall i list them?


Afraid not! I have addressed all the specious arguments, in posts 360 and 367, in my other posts.

If you provided a response to post # 367, why didn't you list the post number here?
Where is it? Your response to post #360 didn't address the points made, so doesn't count.

The JE is a standard reference resource written and compiled by Hebrew speaking Jewish scholars, they didn't just make stuff up the sources they consulted are identified in the articles. They are called bibliographies.

If you were ever in university you'ld know that relying on only one source will get your work an F (as in fail) from the teacher.

Your JE article on hell has two authors. These two are long ago dead & not the only qualified sources or authors on the subject.

How would you know they didn't make stuff up or present a biased view? Blind faith? The JE article you quote from cites their primary sources. Did you ever bother to verify them? Of course unless you read the ancient languages you could only do this with biased English translations.

.....Seems like a whole lot of excuse making trying to make a privately published book, by a man with zero qualifications in the field, equal or superior to the JE and the Talmud.

Since i made no such comparison, this is just a false imaginary claim. Instead i made the comparison between two compilations of educated and or scholarly writers, the book & your posts here.

I have never claimed to be a specialist scholar, that is why I quote from credible, verifiable, historical sources.

You and millions of others. Including scholars who disagree with each other.

.....An analogy, if I want medical, legal, accounting etc. advice/information I do not go to the website of some person with zero or unknown qualifications in those fields. I go to specialists in the respective fields who have studied under tested and supervised conditions, who have licenses, belong to professional organizations such as AMA, Bar association etc.

Or you just include the ones that agree with your theological biases. Not those scholars who don't agree with them.









 
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ClementofA

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Please show me where any verse in Revelations says that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] then they die?

Things don't die, so to ask for that is asking the impossible.

The "lake of fire" is said to be "the second death". That being thrown into a lake of fire causes a second death seems like an obvious possible interpretation. Being cast into such a lake could easily kill a mortal, obviously. And since the mortal had died before, this would be the second time they've died. Hence "second death".

Is there a better interpretation of the term "second death"? In your entire post i don't recall you ever offering such an explanation. Nor even stating what it means.

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
100% of of mankind has sinned, the wages of sin is death, it is appointed unto all, 100%, of mankind to die then the judgment. Where does scripture say after the judgment some people die again?

Hebrews 9:27 doesn't say humans are appointed to die ONLY once. It doesn't say they cannot die a second time. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

Where does scripture say after the judgment some people DONT die again? What is the second death?

What do Romans 3:23 & 6:23 have to do with anything?

Everybody is resurrected.
Daniel 12:2 And many of them that sleep in the dust of the earth shall awake, some to everlasting life, and some to shame and everlasting contempt.
Awake to everlasting contempt not awake then dead again.

How long "everlasting" (OLAM) is here for the unrighteous is not revealed. For Jonah OLAM was about 3 days. The unrighteous will not be resurrected till after the millennial eon (or OLAM) of 1000 years. This is the second general resurrection (Revelation 20:4b-6), the resurrection to the great white throne judgement, associated with the second death, the lake of fire. Those who awake to this judgement may experience "shame" and/or "contempt" based on their giving an account of themselves to God & their works by which they'll be judged. Those not found in the book of life at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death. Nothing here denies that the humans cast into the lake fire will not experience a second death of the same type as their first death.


The lake of fire passages, in context.
Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet
are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die.
The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.

Nothing in your post has proven that the humans cast into the lake fire will not experience a "second death" of the same type as their first death.

Rev.20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.

Revelation 20:5 does not say they are raised to immortality.

.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever.

The false prophets' body may have died or he may be a super human who is not subject to death as long as God wills him to be chastened for his own good.

There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.

Nothing other than the obvious interpretation given we know the lake of fire IS the second death.

Things don't die. Neither do spirit beings, e.g, Satan, suffer physical death. They are not human mortals. So when Satan is said to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10), the lake of fire is never once called the second death. But in the context of the general assembly of humans being cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:13-15; Rev.21:8), the lake of fire is always called the second death. That is because human mortals can physicly die, but spirit beings cannot.

.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere.

Death being thrown into the lake of fire is figurative language probably best interpreted as meaning the lake of fire will be the only place in the universe where there will be death. Because those cast there will become dead because of the fire. And since death is found nowhere else in the universe, it is an obvious interpretation.

Additionally the same language is used of both death and those mortal humans who suffer death in the fire; both are said to be "cast" into the lake of fire. As one goes, so goes the other.

Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.
Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
The two sentient beings I call the angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.

The death & hell (Hades) of Revelation 20:13, along with the sea, give up the dead that are in them via resurrection. Then death & Hades are cast into the lake of fire (v.14). Death, hell & the sea are not "sentient beings", since "sentient beings" don't have masses of humans inside of them. The death, hell & sea of the context (v.13) do have multidudes of human beings inside them. So they are not "sentient beings".

.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” but 4 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.
Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.


Revelation 21:1 regards a time after the events of 20:13-15. Revelation 21:4-5 speaks of events that "shall" occur in the future from that time, such as God wiping away tears, no more crying, pain & death, and all made new. Such hasn't happened yet while there are nations still in need of healing from the leaves of trees (22:2), or while reigning continues (21:23,24 & 22:3-5) and reigning has not been abolished as per 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, or while death and pain still exist in the lake of fire.

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and [those that are] upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, to the ages of ages. (Revelation 5:13, Darby)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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Radrook

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ClementofA

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Radrook

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Human beings (Gen.3:4) can die. But "things" (cars, houses, etc) can't die. They were never alive. Only what is alive can literally die.
Of course that doesn't mean that God can't completely destroy matter if he so chooses to do so:

Jeremiah 32:17
'Ah Lord GOD! Behold, You have made the heavens and the earth by Your great power and by Your outstretched arm! Nothing is too difficult for You,

Matthew 19:26
Jesus looked at them and said, "With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible."
 
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Der Alte

This is me about 1 yr. old. when FDR was president
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How about a simple yes or no to each of the two questions i asked:
1.Is it your belief that Gehenna is Sheol?
2. Do you believe that Gehenna is a place of unending punishment?
Is it you don't know the answer?
They were in response to your bold assertion that:
Links;post #63
post #185
Why should anyone care that the Pharisees believed?
"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
I can quote scripture too. therefore this is equally profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.
Matthew 23:2-4
(2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
"Watch out and beware" does not mean ignore/disregard everything they say!
 
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WiccanKid

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What makes you think anyone has committed this sin, that their punishment will last "for eternity" or that God will not change His mind, e.g. if they repent? Or that the punishment cannot humble or purify them?
I do not believe that the Bible is a holy text(or at least the new ones are not). As you can tell from my name i am not your typical christian. I have my own beliefs in God, but mine do not align with any faith or church. I am part of a minority group. I have one question for you though. What happened to all the other books in the bible? There are supposed to be 84 books, yet there are only 66?
 
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BukiRob

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Links;post #63
post #185

I can quote scripture too. therefore this is equally profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness.

Matthew 23:2-4
(2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.
"Watch out and beware" does not mean ignore/disregard everything they say!


Yet you do not observe Torah so what is your point? You ignore/disregard the entire OT as it is.
 
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SPF

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I do not believe that the Bible is a holy text(or at least the new ones are not).
Can you clarify what you mean by this? Do you believe the Bible was at one time a "holy text"? If so, what do you mean by holy and what happened that caused it to lose its holiness?

I have my own beliefs in God, but mine do not align with any faith or church.
If that's the case, on what do you consider the foundation for your beliefs? How are they any more than subjective ideas that can change as your opinions about the world change?

What happened to all the other books in the bible? There are supposed to be 84 books, yet there are only 66?
Source? What is your argument for 84 books?
 
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Lazarus Short

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What happened to all the other books in the bible? There are supposed to be 84 books, yet there are only 66?

They were judged by men as not being holy enough to be in the Holy Bible even though the apostles stated that all Scripture was profitable. I would have excluded the book of Esther, but that's another story. Get a copy of the Apocrypha, and you've got them. The Book of Jasher is also worth a read.
 
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SPF

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They were judged by men as not being holy enough to be in the Holy Bible even though the apostles stated that all Scripture was profitable.
Do you think there is credible reason for the additional books being excluded? Did they have a "holy meter" by which they held each book up to in order to determine the holiness of each book?

Or do you think there was more to it than that? Perhaps they included books that were already essentially universally accepted, books that had credible authors?

I wonder, what is your criteria for determining what IS Scripture? Why is your criteria superior to the determination of the Church Council?
 
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