QUOTE="The Times
So Jesus tells us that the role of the Holy Ghost is to help the believers, by leading them to all truth, through the life long purging process and to be with the believer forever.
Now, when a believer dies, is there any further processes that the Holy Ghost does?
Before, I answer this,
you can immediately scratch off the unbelievers because they never had the Holy Ghost to begin with.
No, you can't. I told you that every time you sound like a Protestant instead of the Orthodox you claim to be, I am going to call you on it, and you sound like some Fundamentalist Bible Pounder when you say this.
Romans 2: 13-16 gives hope for those who have never heard. Unlike your intention that only those who have heard get a chance at eternal life, God is much more merciful than that. Scripture says that those who have never heard, yet have obeyed the promptings of the Holy Spirit in their hearts, will be judged as law-keepers.
What did Jesus say....
48But suppose that servant is wicked and says to himself, ‘My master is staying away a long time,’
49and he then begins to beat his fellow servants and to eat and drink with drunkards.
50The master of that servant will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour he is not aware of.
51He will cut him to pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites, where there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. (Matthew 24:48-51)
In another place, when discussing judgment, He said that one would not come out of punishment until the last farthing is paid. You are proof-texting, just like a Protestant apologist, to prove your belief system.
Now we can understand, the thoughts of God, with reference to John 3:5. Also we know that a person can loose their salvation if they fail to be faithful even onto death.
How does one stop being a child of God? The picture of the sinner turning from God is found in the Parable of the Prodigal. At no time did the Prodigal ever lose his status as son of his father, and when he "came to his senses" and returned, the father didn't demand a pound of flesh to be extracted as payment for the son's evil behavior. The father freely forgave him, and all the time the Prodigal was gone, the father longed for his return. Yet the picture you constantly draw of our heavenly Father is more akin to Zeus than Jesus.
Because to rule out the doctrine of Universalism and Purgatory after death. You see the mind of God is the mind of Jesus. Jesus is the God of the Old Testament and the new.
If a servant is determined to be faithful according to John 3:5....
Jesus answered, “Very truly I tell you, no one can enter the kingdom of God unless they are born of water and the Spirit.
The requirement according to God is that either you are there when you die or your not, for there are no partial or half measures.
Once again, you sound like a Protestant. You should read Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros's paper THE RIVER OF FIRE. He is an Orthodox teacher and could perhaps set you straight on the next life. Basic theme of his paper is that we all go to be with God due to the all-encompassing salvation of Christ/God. Some will enjoy it (those who have done the work of theosis here and now) and some will find it torment. The same presence of God is joy to some and horror to others. God plundered Satan's household in Christ and all that was stolen from God belongs again to Him.
So after a servant in Christ dies, either they have been determined by God to have successfully finished their race or not, for there are no half measures or no finishers.
Totally your Protestant-sounding opinion, sir, and not what the Early Fathers taught. But I know you don't care what they taught because we have been down this road before, haven't we?
If there are no half measures, then after a witness dies, their fate is already sealed and there is no more purging in order to finish off what was not accomplished in this life.
This utterly contradicts the Orthodox faith and teaching, and makes our prayers for the deceased to be a waste of breath. If one's fate is sealed at death, then there is no chance for change after death, yet we know that we die imperfect and in need of further theosis.
Blood covenant is a
contractual agreement between God and those called and justified by the Cross of Christ. This contract has the promise of eternal inheritance that is discharged to the faithful after they die and the conditional application of John 3:5 after death is no longer applicable.
This is basic Calvinism 101. I know because I was one for 12 years. The Covenant of God is not a contract! It is a relationship. You desperately need to learn the difference between the two. And you need to learn the five working principles of God's covenant relationship.
There is no protracted purgatory process after death that leads to salvation, since the conditional blood covenant is no longer applicable and so the witness has been either successfully purged by the Holy Ghost in this life or he/she is not and the outcome judgement is condemnation, resulting to eternal punishment and separation from God and his Christ.
You have no proof of this whatsoever. Unless, of course, you can prove to me that you have died, gone to the next world, and taken a video deposition on the nature of the Covenant of God and how you say it works.
Purgatory after death is a Spiritist Universalism belief that is at odds with the testimony of scripture and all primary witnesses of the gospel of Jesus Christ.
Then why does the Orthodox Church teach purgation (not Purgatory, but purgation) after death and pray for the dead?
Purgatory in the afterlife is not Biblical and the red flags is how Spiritists and Universalists use it to indoctrinate masses into
a post death covenant which is void of the justifying blood of Christ and void of the sanctifying works of the Holy Ghost.
There is only one Covenant of God. It exists. It is the relationship of the Trinity, and mankind was created to participate in it. You bar the doors. God opens them. I'll believe in God's mercy before I accept your truncated and mean-spirited view of God's dealings with mankind.
I reply to your reply above, with your replies quoted below, along with my answers.....
No, you can't. I told you that every time you sound like a Protestant instead of the Orthodox you claim to be, I am going to call you on it, and you sound like some Fundamentalist Bible Pounder when you say this.
Romans 2: 13-16 gives hope for those who have never heard. Unlike your intention that only those who have heard get a chance at eternal life, God is much more merciful than that. Scripture says that those who have never heard, yet have obeyed the promptings of the Holy Spirit in their hearts, will be judged as law-keepers.
I was born into Orthdoxy and I will also inform you that the Orthodox position with reference to Romans 2:13-16, does not infer salvation to none believers.
If you like, I could elaborate on another post in relation to Romans 2 and what it means in context, as I did for 1 Corinthians 3 for our friend
@fide.
In another place, when discussing judgment, He said that one would not come out of punishment until the last farthing is paid. You are proof-texting, just like a Protestant apologist, to prove your belief system.
If you quote Jesus, then you need to quote Jesus and qualify the other place in scripture that refers to the idea that a person would not come out of punishment until the last farthing is paid. Bear in mind that Jesus was talking to the living and was referring to this lifetime and not an afterlife salvation scenario.
As an adjunct to this, Jesus also mentioned that those who kill by the sword shall be killed by the sword.
How does one stop being a child of God? The picture of the sinner turning from God is found in the Parable of the Prodigal. At no time did the Prodigal ever lose his status as son of his father, and when he "came to his senses" and returned, the father didn't demand a pound of flesh to be extracted as payment for the son's evil behavior. The father freely forgave him, and all the time the Prodigal was gone, the father longed for his return. Yet the picture you constantly draw of our heavenly Father is more akin to Zeus than Jesus.
Highlight the words FATHER and RETURN. With reference to your previous replies which suggests that all will be saved, including those who are without God, meaning the Fatherless. A son must know the Father in this lifetime, as Jesus said no one comes to the Father, except through me, which is a pertinent requirement of a person identifying with the Father.
Also, the prodigal son RETURNS to his identified FATHER, within his lifetime.
After all what motivated the son to return?
But when he came to himself he said, How many hired servants of my father’s have bread enough and to spare, and
I perish here with hunger! I will arise and go to my father.
The son being in danger of physically dying, decides on his own free will to RETURN to the FATHER, least he PERISH.
So three things need highlighting....
Firstly, the son IDENTIFIES with the Father
Secondly, the son realises within this lifetime and not the afterlife, that without the Father, he will PERISH.
Lastly, the Son decides to RETURN to the Father before he PERISHES.
Offcourse the Father, will have open arms to embrace a person who identifies his Father, realises that he will PERISH without the Father and that he needs to RETURN on his free will to the Father, while he is living in this lifetime.
It would be pointless for Jesus to teach a parable to the living, if the message was not of grave importance for people in this lifetime to make that decision to RETURN to the FATHER, before they die and leave this temporal life. If the message applied to people in the afterlife, then the urgency and vital importance to return to the Father before one perishes becomes mute and the parable is rendered ineffective as to highlight the urgency within this lifetime to return to the Father.
Once again, you sound like a Protestant. You should read Dr. Alexandre Kalomiros's paper THE RIVER OF FIRE. He is an Orthodox teacher and could perhaps set you straight on the next life. Basic theme of his paper is that we all go to be with God due to the all-encompassing salvation of Christ/God. Some will enjoy it (those who have done the work of theosis here and now) and some will find it torment. The same presence of God is joy to some and horror to others. God plundered Satan's household in Christ and all that was stolen from God belongs again to Him.
I was born into Orthodoxy.
Here is part of the Liturgy......
This is the gate through which a man enters into the Kingdom and this is the way which is all clear from stumbling blocks.
These are the words, that
if the living treat with contempt, they will die. This is the voice that when the dead hear, they come to life.
This is the Light, this is the Truth, this is the Life and He of who it speaks is the Judge of the dead and the living.
It is necessary that you should know that
all the people through Him shall be saved, believe and be assured that all sins through Him shall be remitted.
Blessed is he who believes in Him and confirms his words, for if he is dead he shall live, and if he is living he shall not die in his sins.
The deacons enter the altar saying:
Let him that has not received baptism, depart.
Let him that has not received the sign of life, depart.
Let him that does not accept It
[the Holy Communion], depart.
Let the hearers go, and watch the doors.
The Deacons [continuing from above]: ...prophets and apostles and of all martyrs and confessors of this and every place, that God crown them in the resurrection from the dead, and
give us with them a good hope and portion and inheritance and life in the kingdom of heaven.
Most Liturgy is pointing to the HOPE, please underline this word and is tied to conditions within the realm of the living, to receive baptism, the sign of life (Holy Ghost seal) and to accept it. That if the living believers treat it with contempt they will die.
All these prayers are for believers, not the unbelievers. Universalism and Purgatory is completely absent from Liturgy. I have checked that already.
Totally your Protestant-sounding opinion, sir, and not what the Early Fathers taught. But I know you don't care what they taught because we have been down this road before, haven't we?
Early Orthodox fathers would absolutely cringe, when you lump unbelievers with believers.
Their Liturgy speaks volumes, that is.....
Let him that has not received baptism, depart.
Let him that has not received the sign of life, depart.
Let him that does not accept It
[the Holy Communion], depart.
Let the hearers go, and watch the doors.
This utterly contradicts the Orthodox faith and teaching, and makes our prayers for the deceased to be a waste of breath. If one's fate is sealed at death, then there is no chance for change after death, yet we know that we die imperfect and in need of further theosis
No, prayers never are a waste of breath. They comfort and embolden the believers to stay the course of faith. Liturgy never ventures into any form of purgation workings of the realm of the dead, their prayers are for the hope of a believer to migrate from this temporal life to eternal life with Christ. This is the sending off salute for Orthodox Christians and it does in no way declare that one is actually 100% saved, for it is just a sending off salute.
This is basic Calvinism 101. I know because I was one for 12 years. The Covenant of God is not a contract! It is a relationship. You desperately need to learn the difference between the two. And you need to learn the five working principles of God's covenant relationship
I remember having the same conversation with a SDA member about wine or grape juice and all I needed to do, is to substitute grade juice instead of wine into the quoted words of Jesus and the resulting statement no longer made any sense. For example having too much grape juice would certainly not make the tenth glass any tastier, after all increase sugar intake leads to bloating and indigestion symptoms. With fermented wine, the sugar is no longer a issue and after a person has more than two glasses of wine, the taste buds no longer distinguish between the wine, where the common Jewish practice was to bring out the less expensive wine towards the latter part of the evening. However the wine that Jesus created was so pure from a fermentation process aspect, that it was silky smooth and most probably washed the bad wine away and this would have been most notable by the wedding organiser.
Now back to your contention about a covenant being a relationship as opposed to a contract. Well we can do the same thing by substituting
contract/relationship in place of
covenant, as follows.....
But in fact the ministry Jesus has received is as superior to theirs as
the contract/relationship of which he is mediator is superior to the old one, since the new
contract/relationship is established on better promises.
7For if there had been nothing wrong with that
first contract/relationship, no place would have been sought for another.
8But God found fault with the people and said:
“The days are coming, declares the Lord, when I will make a
new contract/relationship with the people of Israel and with the people of Judah.
9It will not be like
the contract/relationship I made with their ancestors when I took them by the hand to lead them out of Egypt, because they did not remain faithful to
my contract/relationship,
and I turned away from them, declares the Lord.
10This is the
contract/relationship I will establish with the people of Israel after that time, declares the Lord. I will put my laws in their minds and write them on their hearts. I will be their God, and they will be my people.
The KJV sounds even better.
You have no proof of this whatsoever. Unless, of course, you can prove to me that you have died, gone to the next world, and taken a video deposition on the nature of the Covenant of God and how you say it works.
Firstly, you have to understand that a covenant is a contract as opposed to a relationship.
Lastly, once you gain the understanding that we are in contract with God, through a personal relationship with his Son, then you will understand that we carry our crosses in this life, until we shed our blood and that is the legality of the matter, that completely discharges us from being obligated to it as far as our salvation is concerned. That is why Paul would write.....
26The last enemy to be destroyed is death.
27For he “has put everything under his feet.” Now when it says that “everything” has been put under him, it is clear that this does not include God himself, who put everything under Christ.
28When he has done this, then the
Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all. (1 Corinthians 15:26-28)
Death discharges the legality of being subjects under the blood covenant of the Son, where when all die, all who were written in the book of life, would no longer be subject to the contract as it has been fulfilled by the shedding of blood as this is the testiment that is with blood, that is blood for blood. As Jesus said you will certainly drink from my cup. Then after all of humanity have died and the blood contract has no subjects, then the Son becomes subject to the Father, as the authority that was given to him within the context of salvation, returns to the Father, therefore the contract has accomplished what it set out to do, when humanity roamed the earth.
This is why the Hebrews author would write.....
16For where a testament
is, there must also of necessity be the death of the testator.
17For a testament
is of force after men are dead: otherwise it is of no strength at all while the testator liveth.
18Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood. (Hebrews 9:16-18)
So once a witness dies or sheds his blood, then the contract is dissolved and no longer applicable for that individual.
Then why does the Orthodox Church teach purgation (not Purgatory, but purgation) after death and pray for the dead?
Highlight the word
HOPE for believers only. No guareentees but.
There is only one Covenant of God. It exists. It is the relationship of the Trinity, and mankind was created to participate in it. You bar the doors. God opens them. I'll believe in God's mercy before I accept your truncated and mean-spirited view of God's dealings with mankind.
A covenant is a contract and it is not between the Trinity, rather it is between God and man. I don't believe God is mean, he is more than fair and sets out the conditions of his contract quite clearly. In fact a parable that emphasises God' fairness is highlighted below....
9“The workers who were hired about five in the afternoon came and each received a denarius.
10So when those came who were hired first, they expected to receive more. But each one of them also received a denarius.
11When they received it, they began to grumble against the landowner.
12‘These who were hired last worked only one hour,’ they said, ‘and you have made them equal to us who have borne the burden of the work and the heat of the day.’
13“But he answered one of them, ‘I am not being unfair to you, friend. Didn’t you agree to work for a denarius?
14Take your pay and go. I want to give the one who was hired last the same as I gave you.
15Don’t I have the right to do what I want with my own money? Or are you envious because I am generous? (Matthew 20:9-14)
Say you were a worker who worked more hours and got the same pay as a person who worked only an hour, you would complain, right? Come on say yes!
Well the moral of the story is that our most beloved God likes to make legally binding contracts, so what is wrong with that, nothing to be envious about, right? Just because he can and his character shows that he does.
