To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

Lazarus Short · Jun 14, 2017

SPF said:
Do you think there is credible reason for the additional books being excluded? Did they have a "holy meter" by which they held each book up to in order to determine the holiness of each book?

Or do you think there was more to it than that? Perhaps they included books that were already essentially universally accepted, books that had credible authors?

I wonder, what is your criteria for determining what IS Scripture? Why is your criteria superior to the determination of the Church Council?

I don't have any particular criteria - why do you think I would think my criteria is superior to that of others? There is just no need for you to invent an imaginary "holy meter." I just know that Church Councils decided against certain books, for reasons that seemed good to them.

SPF · Jun 14, 2017

Lazarus Short said:
I don't have any particular criteria - why do you think I would think my criteria is superior to that of others? There is just no need for you to invent an imaginary "holy meter." I just know that Church Councils decided against certain books, for reasons that seemed good to them.

You stated that " I would have excluded the book of Esther" which indicates to me that you don't think the book of Esther qualifies as inspired Scripture. It would logically follow that you think your criteria for what is inspired Scripture and what is not is greater/more authoritative/more correct than that of the Church Father's that sought the Spirit's guidance, and through prayer acknowledged what was the Canon of Scripture.

It's also misleading to say that the men at the council "decided" what was Scripture and what was not. In truth, they really were just confirming what had already been almost universally accepted.

Der Alte · Jun 14, 2017

ClementofA said:
Things don't die, so to ask for that is asking the impossible.
The "lake of fire" is said to be "the second death". That being thrown into a lake of fire causes a second death seems like an obvious possible interpretation. Being cast into such a lake could easily kill a mortal, obviously. And since the mortal had died before, this would be the second time they've died. Hence "second death".

Please show me the verse(s) which say someone is thrown into the LOF then they die.

Is there a better interpretation of the term "second death"? In your entire post i don't recall you ever offering such an explanation. Nor even stating what it means.

Try actually reading my post. I gave my explanation there. What does this sign mean "=?" I remember my physics professor saying "if you have a puff of smoke on this side = then you must have a puff of smoke on this side!"

Hebrews 9:27 doesn't say humans are appointed to die ONLY once. It doesn't say they cannot die a second time. How many times did those raised before the general resurrections die?

Your question about general resurrection does not make any sense. Show me a verse/verses which says "the wages of sin is death, resurrection, judgment and another death."

Where does scripture say after the judgment some people DONT die again? What is the second death?

See response immediately above.

What do Romans 3:23 & 6:23 have to do with anything?

I have found it most helpful to actually read a post before responding to it.

How long "everlasting" (OLAM) is here for the unrighteous is not revealed. For Jonah OLAM was about 3 days. The unrighteous will not be resurrected till after the millennial eon (or OLAM) of 1000 years.

According to the Jewish Publication Society.

JPS Isaiah 60:15
(15) Whereas thou hast been forsaken and hated, so that no man passed through thee, I will make thee an eternal [עולם/olam] excellency , a joy of many generations.
Exodus 3:15 And God said moreover unto Moses: 'Thus shalt thou say unto the children of Israel: The LORD, the God of your fathers, the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, hath sent me unto you; this is My name for ever, [עולם/olam] and this is My memorial unto all generations.
Genesis 3:22
(22) And the LORD God said: 'Behold, the man is become as one of us, to know good and evil; and now, lest he put forth his hand, and take also of the tree of life, and eat, and live for ever.'[עולם/olam]
Exodus 31:16 Wherefore the children of Israel shall keep the sabbath, to observe the sabbath throughout their generations, for a perpetual covenant.[עולם/olam]

Do you know what the word hyperbole means? If the Jewish scholars say olam means for ever, I'm going with that.

This is the second general resurrection (Revelation 20:4b-6), the resurrection to the great white throne judgement, associated with the second death, the lake of fire. Those who awake to this judgement may experience "shame" and/or "contempt" based on their giving an account of themselves to God & their works by which they'll be judged. Those not found in the book of life at that time will be cast into the lake of fire, the second death. Nothing here denies that the humans cast into the lake fire will not experience a second death of the same type as their first death.

Discussed all this in the post you responded to here.

Nothing in your post has proven that the humans cast into the lake fire will not experience a "second death" of the same type as their first death.
Rev.20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.
Revelation 20:5 does not say they are raised to immortality.
The false prophets' body may have died or he may be a super human who is not subject to death as long as God wills him to be chastened for his own good.

"May have died""he may be super human" guessing and speculation. And you may be totally wrong.

Nothing other than the obvious interpretation given we know the lake of fire IS the second death.

And the reverse is also true "The second death is the lake of fire." Since the "first death" ended with a resurrection. If the second death is like the first then those in the LOF will be resurrected.

Things don't die. Neither do spirit beings, e.g, Satan, suffer physical death. They are not human mortals. So when Satan is said to be cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:10), the lake of fire is never once called the second death. But in the context of the general assembly of humans being cast into the lake of fire (Rev.20:13-15; Rev.21:8), the lake of fire is always called the second death. That is because human mortals can physicly die, but spirit beings cannot.

The beast, devil and the false prophet are depicted as sentient beings which obviously can die. This is ridiculous the LOF is second death sometimes not other times. Scripture?

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

As I said death and hell have not died a first death so they can't die a second death but this verse says "This is the second death!"

Death being thrown into the lake of fire is figurative language probably best interpreted as meaning the lake of fire will be the only place in the universe where there will be death. Because those cast there will become dead because of the fire. And since death is found nowhere else in the universe, it is an obvious interpretation.

"figurative language probably best interpreted as" This is a favorite practice of heterodox groups. When scripture as written contradicts their doctrine dismiss scripture as figurative.

Additionally the same language is used of both death and those mortal humans who suffer death in the fire; both are said to be "cast" into the lake of fire. As one goes, so goes the other.

Not one verse in Rev. says that anyone or anything thrown into the LOF dies.

The death & hell (Hades) of Revelation 20:13, along with the sea, give up the dead that are in them via resurrection. Then death & Hades are cast into the lake of fire (v.14). Death, hell & the sea are not "sentient beings", since "sentient beings" don't have masses of humans inside of them. The death, hell & sea of the context (v.13) do have multidudes of human beings inside them. So they are not "sentient beings".

Revelation 20:13-14
(13) And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.
(14) And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Is your argument that hades, i.e. the grave, which can be and is literally thrown into the LOF and death, which is the moment in time end of life and has no physical presence, is figuratively thrown into the LOF, mixing literal and figurative in the same sentence?
As I said there is a scriptural way to reconcile this verse.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

These two sentient beings who are riding horses are named death and hell, which I refer to as the angel of death and demon of hell, they are given power which they did not have before, to kill with sword, hunger and death. Note the the sentient being named death has power to kill with death.

Revelation 21:1 regards a time after the events of 20:13-15. Revelation 21:4-5 speaks of events that "shall" occur in the future from that time, such as God wiping away tears, no more crying, pain & death, and all made new. Such hasn't happened yet while there are nations still in need of healing from the leaves of trees (22:2), or while reigning continues (21:23,24 & 22:3-5) and reigning has not been abolished as per 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, or while death and pain still exist in the lake of fire.

Death is ended in Rev. 4, in v. 8 which is after v. 4 several groups of people are thrown into the LOF which is death.

Rev 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Rev 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

And every creature which is in the heaven and upon the earth and under the earth, and [those that are] upon the sea, and all things in them, heard I saying, To him that sits upon the throne, and to the Lamb, blessing, and honour, and glory, and might, to the ages of ages. (Revelation 5:13, Darby)
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Yet 16 chapters later there are still people being thrown into the LOF which is the second death.

Rev 7:1
(1) And after these things ...
Rev 7:9
(9) After this
Rev 15:5
(5) And after that ...
Rev 18:1
(1) And after these things...
Rev 19:1
(1) And after these things ...

If you can, provide scripture which says that some things recorded later in scripture and after the verses Rev 7:1, 7:9, 15:3, 18:1 and 19:1 actually occurred earlier in the narrative?

Der Alte · Jun 14, 2017

ClementofA said:
Post numbers 367 & 360 in this thread, amongst dozens of others. Shall i list them?

I just read these two posts and will address them in a bit.

If you provided a response to post # 367, why didn't you list the post number here?
Where is it? Your response to post #360 didn't address the points made, so doesn't count.

Your response there does not address anything specifically so it does not count.

If you were ever in university you'ld know that relying on only one source will get your work an F (as in fail) from the teacher.

Is that why you post a link and quote from only one source, a self published book by a person who has no relevant qualifications? What was that you said F as in fail? I quoted two sources. If you have any credible, verifiable, historical evidence which refutes anything I posted please feel free to post it.

Your JE article on hell has two authors. These two are long ago dead & not the only qualified sources or authors on the subject.

Irrelevant! In your favorite are many quotes from people now dead. Pot-kettle.

How would you know they didn't make stuff up or present a biased view? Blind faith? The JE article you quote from cites their primary sources. Did you ever bother to verify them? Of course unless you read the ancient languages you could only do this with biased English translations.

Actually I studied Hebrew and Greek at the graduate level more than 3 decades ago. All you have is biased translations and books written by people with zero qualifications. How do I know they didn't make stuff up. Check their references and the bibliography. And before you start demanding all this nonsense from me how about the qualifications of Gerry Beauchemin? And you have a lot of work before you verifying everything he quoted.

Since i made no such comparison, this is just a false imaginary claim. Instead i made the comparison between two compilations of educated and or scholarly writers, the book & your posts here.

You have presented your book as superior in reliability, accuracy etc. to the sources I quoted. ,

Or you just include the ones that agree with your theological biases. Not those scholars who don't agree with them.

I got a big laugh out of this. Isn't that exactly what you and your guy Beauchemin do?

Der Alte · Jun 14, 2017

ClementofA said:
Actually, you are the one who said "Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs" (fables). If Jesus' beliefs as recorded in the Bible cannot be used to prove the Jews' fairy tales were myths, then how is it possible to do what you ask & prove by the Lord's words that He thought they were myths? As i pointed out, the Jewish beliefs were either not in the Word of God or they are against what He teaches. Scripture contains Jesus' beliefs and His beliefs go against the Pharisees' fairy tales. Therefore you err in saying "Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs" (fables).
"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)
https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Problem is you have not proved that anything the Jews believed is a myth.
Where did Jesus specifically address any of the Jewish beliefs about fiery hell, eternal punishment, etc. and tell the Jews these beliefs are wrong? I don't mean your assumptions, speculation etc?
As I have shown repeatedly what Jesus taught about eternal punishment, hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die etc. was virtually identical to the Jewish beliefs as recorded in the Jewish historical sources the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud.

SkyWriting · Jun 14, 2017

Der Alter said:
Please show me where any verse in Revelations says that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] then they die?
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:100% of of mankind has sinned, the wages of sin is death, it is appointed unto all, 100%, of mankind to die then the judgment. Where does scripture say after the judgment some people die again?

Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of ...
... The lake of fire is the second death. .... ... This lake of fire is the second death. ...

Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first ...
... The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. ...

Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit ...
... The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. ... Whoever
is victorious will not be harmed by the second death. ...

Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the ...
... lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." ... ...

SkyWriting · Jun 14, 2017

Der Alter said:
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

It does sound like there is a second death. Thanks.

And don't worry about the "ever and ever' or "eternal" references.
Time does not exist in the Spiritual.
Those phrases are as close as we can describe concepts without time.

ClementofA · Jun 14, 2017

Radrook said:
Of course that doesn't mean that God can't completely destroy matter if he so chooses to do so:

The destruction of matter is a different subject than people dying.

Der Alte · Jun 14, 2017

ClementofA said:
You err.
Let's look at those alleged "Jewish beliefs", one after the other:
1. "The pious go to paradise, and sinners to hell."

Jesus used the word ᾅδης/hades four times and γέεννα/gehenna 11 times both are fiery places. Gehinnom/Gehenna and sheol refer to hell in Hebrew. Sheol is translated hades in the 225 bc LXX.

2. "hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away"
The Bible doesn't say "hell shall pass away".
3. "All that descend into Gehenna shall come up again, with the exception of three classes of men: those who have committed adultery, or shamed their neighbors, or vilified them"
The New Testament obviously opposes the above myth.
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)
4. "heretics and the Roman oppressors go to Gehenna, and the same fate awaits the Persians, the oppressors of the Babylonian Jew."
The New Testament obviously opposes the above fairy tale.
5. "When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [שׁאול/Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them"
Says nothing about any endless punishment fable.
6. "chiefly the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment"
The book of Revelation speaks of a lake of fire, but no swimming "pool". How many people can fit in a "pool"?
7. "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
Scripture does not use this language. It's a myth. Jesus rejected such. Assuming your 2nd or 3rd hand quotes are even accurate. If worms are eating their flesh, does God recreate it so the worms can keep eating it for "eternity"? Nice God you have.
8. "The sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment,"
That is another myth. In the Bible sinners are in Hades, not Gehenna, before the day of judgement.
9. "they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation,"
The Bible says they are judged at the great white throne, not "from generation to generation".
10. "Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed And their forms wasteth away in the nether world,"
This isn't what the Bible says.
To sum up these 10 "Jewish beliefs" in one word: hogwash.

To sum up all your specious objections. Hogwash!

Therefore, according to your own reasoning, since Jesus did...correct them...their teaching about hell must have been wrong.

Jesus never specifically addressed any of the Jewish beliefs about hell, His teachings on hell, eternal punishment, etc. were almost identical to the Jewish beliefs.

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."
"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)
"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

You can post these proof texts until your keyboard wears and they will still be irrelevant because you have not identified any specific fables or commandments of men.. Comparison of my sources and scripture.

Jewish Encyclopedia [JE]hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).

Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

JE When Nebuchadnezzar descended into hell, [ שׁאול /Sheol] all its inhabitants were afraid that he was coming to rule over them (Shab. 149a; comp. Isa. xiv. 9-10).

Which is scripture Isaiah 14:9-11 Shows that Jews used Gehinnom and sheol to refer to the same place. Hebrew Gehinnom is transliterated "Gehenna" in the NT. Hebrew "sheol" is translated "hades" in the LXX and NT.

Talmud The Book of Enoch the heathen who are to be cast into the fiery pool on the Day of Judgment ( x. 6, xci. 9, et al).

Book of Enoch which is considered canon by the Jews.

Talmud "The Lord, the Almighty, will punish them on the Day of Judgment by putting fire and worms into their flesh, so that they cry out with pain unto all eternity"
(Judith xvi. 17).

Book of Judith which is considered canon by the Jews. Also cf. Isa 66:24, Mark 9:43-48

TalmudThe sinners in Gehenna will be filled with pain when God puts back the souls into the dead bodies on the Day of Judgment, according to Isa. xxxiii. 11 (Sanh. 108b).

Scripture Isaiah 33:11

Talmud they all descend to Gehenna, and are judged there from generation to generation, as it is said
"And they shall go forth and look upon the carcases of the men who have transgressed against Me; for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched." [Isa. lxvi. 24]:

Isaiah 66:24 is scripture.

Talmud Even when Gehenna will be destroyed, they will not be consumed, as it is written [Psalms, xlix. 15]: "And their forms wasteth away in the nether world[sheol]" which the sages comment upon to mean that their forms shall endure even when the grave is no more.

Psalms 40:15 is scripture.

Talmud Concerning them Hannah says [I Sam. ii. 10]: "The adversaries of the Lord shall be broken to pieces."

Psalm 49:15 and 1 Samuel 2:10. Both scripture. Jesus never said any of these were false..

Der Alte · Jun 14, 2017

SkyWriting said:
Revelation 20:14 Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of ...
... The lake of fire is the second death. .... ... This lake of fire is the second death. ...
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy are those who share in the first ...
... The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years. ...
Revelation 2:11 Whoever has ears, let them hear what the Spirit ...
... The one who is victorious will not be hurt at all by the second death. ... Whoever
is victorious will not be harmed by the second death. ...
Revelation 21:8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the ...
... lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death." ... ...

Please show me where any verse in Revelations says that anyone/anything is thrown into the lake of fire [LOF] then they die?

Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord.
Hebrew 9:27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:

100% of of mankind has sinned, the wages of sin is death, it is appointed unto all, 100%, of mankind to die then the judgment. Where does scripture say after the judgment some people die again?
The lake of fire passages, in context.

Revelation 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.
Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
Revelation 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

And 1000 years later, the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are still in the lake of fire.

Revelation 20:10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet
are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.
Revelation 20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

The lake of fire [LOF] is called “the second death” twice in Rev. vss. 20:14 and 21:8. While this is true, Rev. never says that anyone is thrown into the LOF then they die. The terms the “lake of fire” and “ the second death” are interchangeable, “the lake of fire” is “the second death” and the “second death” is “he lake of fire,” thus we can see that it is not synonymous with death or destruction.
.....We also know that being thrown into the LOF is not synonymous with death from Rev 19:20, where the beast and the false prophet, who is a person, are thrown into the LOF and 1000 years later in 20:10 the devil, is thrown into the LOF. Three living beings, are thrown into the LOF but they do not die, they are tormented day and night for ever and ever. There is not one verse in Revelation which says anyone or anything is thrown into the LOF then they/it dies.
.....Rev 20:14 says death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. Death is the point in time end of life, it has no physical presence and cannot be literally thrown anywhere. Since neither death nor hell could or have died a first death they can’t die a second death. But there is a scriptural answer which does not involve jumping through hoops mixing literal and figurative in one sentence, there is a death and hell which can be thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.

The two sentient beings I call the angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended.
.....More verses which show that the LoF is not synonymous with death or destruction. Rev 21:4 says “there shall be no more death” but 4 verses later Rev 21:8 says certain groups “shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.” If vs. 4 is correct then those mentioned in vs. 8 do not die.

Revelation 21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.
Revelation 21:8 But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

Der Alte · Jun 14, 2017

SkyWriting said:
It does sound like there is a second death. Thanks.
And don't worry about the "ever and ever' or "eternal" references.
Time does not exist in the Spiritual.
Those phrases are as close as we can describe concepts without time.

See my above post. Is there a second death? Rev 21:4 tells us "there is no more death"

Revelation 21:4
(4) And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

But in vs. 8 there are several groups of people being thrown into the LOF.

Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

ClementofA · Jun 14, 2017

Der Alter said:
As I have shown repeatedly what Jesus taught about eternal punishment, hell where the fire is not quenched and the worm does not die etc. was virtually identical to the Jewish beliefs as recorded in the Jewish historical sources the Jewish Encyclopedia and the Talmud.

You gave a list of 10 statements the Jews believed. According to you "Jesus never contradicted these Jewish beliefs" of the Pharisees.

According to you, the Pharisees said many people who descend into Gehenna "come up again", Gehenna shall be "destroyed", and "hell shall pass away".

According to Jesus, Gehenna is described as a place where the fire is not extinguished, the fire is not going out (Mark 9:43-49) and eonian fire (Mt.18:8,9).

If Gehenna will be destroyed & pass away, as the Pharisees taught, then Jesus' warnings about Gehenna were not about a place of unending punishment, but a place of temporary finite punishment until Gehenna passes away. Or until people "come up again" out of Gehenna. That harmonizes with universalism.

Furthermore, if the Pharisees are correct, then Gehenna's description as a place of "eternal fire" (Mt.18:8-9) means it is only a place of temporary fire. Is that your belief now?

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

SkyWriting · Jun 14, 2017

Der Alter said:
Revelation 21:8
(8) But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.

This would be the second death of the Spirit, not the body which would cry and feel pain.

Der Alte · Jun 14, 2017

SkyWriting said:
This would be the second death of the Spirit, not the body which would cry and feel pain.

Scripture?

Lazarus Short · Jun 14, 2017

SPF said:
You stated that " I would have excluded the book of Esther" which indicates to me that you don't think the book of Esther qualifies as inspired Scripture. It would logically follow that you think your criteria for what is inspired Scripture and what is not is greater/more authoritative/more correct than that of the Church Father's that sought the Spirit's guidance, and through prayer acknowledged what was the Canon of Scripture.

It's also misleading to say that the men at the council "decided" what was Scripture and what was not. In truth, they really were just confirming what had already been almost universally accepted.

OK, you've got me! I don't care for the book of Esther because it fails to mention God and because it concerns the killing of masses of non-Jews. I don't like that. Tell me, would you expect a resident of pre-conquest Canaan to like the last four books of Moses?

ClementofA · Jun 15, 2017

Der Alter said:
All you have is biased translations and books written by people with zero qualifications.

Actually, i have Early Church Fathers who believed in universalism. Also more modern day scholars who support my viewpoints &/or universalism. Even those scholars who don't support universalism often say things that are favorable to my viewpoints on various topics related to eventual universal reconciliation. Most importantly, i have the Scriptures which teach thtat all will be saved through Jesus Christ & Him crucified.

Of course i don't have many learned men and scholars i can refer to in favour of my position during the 1000-1500 years of the darkness of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burnings & torturings of so-called "heretics" by the "church". That is, the "church" that supported the doctrine you also support, namely that Love Omnipotent will send the unrepentant wicked to endless conscious torments.

If you were living back then you could have argued that all the scholars were on the side of the "church". How objective do you think those scholars were? Could they resist the truths presented by the Protestants? How objective or biased are scholars today? Publishing books can make them a lot of money.

That 1000-1500 years gave the "church" many years to destroy, adulterate, rewrite & burn any writings or any thing that disagreed with its dogmas.

At what age do the young qualify for this monstrous destiny in your theology? Does it include babies as the Calvinist Calvin stated? Or do they have to be a bit older to qualify for such sadism? Say 4, 6, 10 years old? Young, middle or older teenage years?

Der Alter said:
How do I know they didn't make stuff up. Check their references and the bibliography.

Most of the bibliography is dated back around 1900. How easy is it to find such items & read them? Most are also written in foreign languages? Did you read those? So how would you rate the usefulness of the bibliography. On a scale of 0 to 10, about a zero? Do you think there might have been something written on the subject that's a bit more recent than 120 years old?

Der Alter said:
You have presented your book as superior in reliability, accuracy etc. to the sources I quoted. ,

What i recall is comparing it to your posts which i often find contain untruths, myths and fairy tales.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

ClementofA · Jun 15, 2017

Der Alter said:
Jesus never specifically addressed any of the Jewish beliefs about hell,

Actually the Pharisees believed they were not going to so-called "hell"(Gehenna), but Jesus corrected them and said they were. Jesus also corrected the Sadducees belief in no "hell" in the afterlife.

Der Alter said:
His teachings on hell, eternal punishment, etc. were almost identical to the Jewish beliefs.

Easy to say. Much more difficult to prove. See Sadducees above. Jesus' views re "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, the lake of fire, the grave, & any other "hell" there may be in the Scriptures) were radically different from the Sadducees. Is there even one thing Jesus agreed with the Sadducees on re the various "hells"?

Der Alter said:
You can post these proof texts until your keyboard wears and they will still be irrelevant because you have not identified any specific fables or commandments of men..

Jesus said re the Pharisees:

"This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

Titus 1:14 refers to the Pharisees!

BTW, the apostle Paul, who wrote that, was formerly a Pharisee.

So what sect of the Jews is Jewish fables in Titus 1:14 referring to? The Sadducees did not even believe in an afterlife, angels or demons as the Pharisees did.

Der Alter said:
Comparison of my sources and scripture.

Der Alter said:
Jewish Encyclopedia [JE]hell shall pass away, but they shall not pass away" (R. H. 17a; comp. Shab. 33b).
Revelation 20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

According to you "hell" in Revelation 20:14 refers to a "sentient being" who will be tormented for all eternity. This "hell" person, therefore, will not pass away.

But according to the Jews, "hell shall pass away".

So if Revelation 20:14 refers to a place named "hell" passing away, then are you not wrong in your view that the "hell" of the verse will last forever?

Evidently you posted the verse to show support for the Pharisees' belief that "hell shall pass away", yet your own interpretation of the verse opposes a Pharisaical interpretation of the verse.

Moreover, if "hell shall pass away", what does that say about Jesus' warnings about "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, etc)? That they refer to places of temporary punishment, not "eternal" punishments in "unquenchable" fires that don't go out?

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf

Der Alte · Jun 15, 2017

ClementofA said:
Actually the Pharisees believed they were not going to so-called "hell"(Gehenna), but Jesus corrected them and said they were. Jesus also corrected the Sadducees belief in no "hell" in the afterlife.

What is your point? I am still waiting for you to show me where Jesus specifically addressed the Jewish views on Gehenna, Sheol/hades and eternal punishment.

Easy to say. Much more difficult to prove. See Sadducees above. Jesus' views re "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, Tartarus, the lake of fire, the grave, & any other "hell" there may be in the Scriptures) were radically different from the Sadducees. Is there even one thing Jesus agreed with the Sadducees on re the various "hells"?

That there was a group of Jews in Israel at the time of Jesus who believed all this about hell etc. is irrelevant. As I have said repeatedly, before and during the time of Jesus there was a belief among Jews in a place of fiery, eternal, unending fiery punishment which they called both Gehinnom/Gehenna and sheol/hades. This belief was significant enough that one article in the Jewish Encyclopedia was written about it.
Nothing you have said or can say has or will refute this. Although Jesus criticized and corrected the Jews about a number of things He never specifically contradicted any of the beliefs in the article.

Jesus said re the Pharisees:
"This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me; in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men." (Mt.15:8-9)

Jesus also said this.

Matthew 23:2-3
(2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)
Titus 1:14 refers to the Pharisees!
BTW, the apostle Paul, who wrote that, was formerly a Pharisee.
So what sect of the Jews is Jewish fables in Titus 1:14 referring to? The Sadducees did not even believe in an afterlife, angels or demons as the Pharisees did.

Where does Titus specifically refer to Pharisees? Oops I can't find the word Pharisees anywhere in Titus. What the Sadduccees did/did not believe is irrelevant since it does relate to the topic under discussion.

According to you "hell" in Revelation 20:14 refers to a "sentient being" who will be tormented for all eternity. This "hell" person, therefore, will not pass away.
But according to the Jews, "hell shall pass away".
So if Revelation 20:14 refers to a place named "hell" passing away, then are you not wrong in your view that the "hell" of the verse will last forever?
Evidently you posted the verse to show support for the Pharisees' belief that "hell shall pass away", yet your own interpretation of the verse opposes a Pharisaical interpretation of the verse.
Moreover, if "hell shall pass away", what does that say about Jesus' warnings about "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, etc)? That they refer to places of temporary punishment, not "eternal" punishments in "unquenchable" fires that don't go out?

Perhaps you should actually read my post to gain an understanding of what I said. The Greek word Hades, translated "hell" in some versions, is used in three different ways in the NT. It can refer to the grave. e.g. Acts 2:27, a fiery place of torment, e.g. Luke 16:23, and in one instance a sentient being is named "Hades/hell" e.g. Revelation 6:8. Which one of these did I specifically say was cast into the LOF?

"Jesus warned His disciples to “watch out and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and the Sadducees,” which was their false teaching (Matt. 16:6,12)."

Jesus also said.

Matthew 23:2-3
(2) Saying, The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat:
(3) All therefore whatsoever they bid you observe, that observe and do; but do not ye after their works: for they say, and do not.

"Not giving heed to Jewish fables, and commandments of men, that turn from the truth." (Titus 1:14)

Irrelevant unless you can specifically identify anything in the JE and Talmud articles I posted as fables etc.

"All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:" (2 Tim.3:16)

Excellent scripture why do you ignore certain scriptures? See e.g. Matt 23:2-3

...tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell...

Link to self published book by a person with zero qualifications omitted.

Der Alte · Jun 15, 2017

ClementofA said:
Actually, i have Early Church Fathers who believed in universalism. Also more modern day scholars who support my viewpoints &/or universalism. Even those scholars who don't support universalism often say things that are favorable to my viewpoints on various topics related to eventual universal reconciliation. Most importantly, i have the Scriptures which teach thtat all will be saved through Jesus Christ & Him crucified.

Some scripture is distorted to make it appear that everyone will be saved no matter what.
If you think some ECF support Universalism quote it here. The only one I know of is Origen and his writings are ambivalent on this.

Origen [a.d. 185-230-254.] Against Celsus. Book V Chap. XVI.
The Scripture accordingly declares that only those who are unscathed by the fire and the punishments are to remain, - those, viz., whose opinions, and morals, and mind have been purified to the highest degree; while, on the other hand, those of a different nature - those, viz., who, according to their deserts, require the administration of punishment by fire - will be involved in these sufferings with a view to an end which it is suitable for God to bring upon those who have been created in His image, but who have lived in opposition to the will of that nature which is according to His image. And this is our answer to the statement, “All the rest of the race will be completely burnt up, but they alone are to remain.”
Origen Against Celsus. Book VIII. Chap. LII.
Let all men, therefore, when they look upon the universe, observe the constant revolution of the unerring stars, the converse motion of the planets, the constitution of the atmosphere, and its adaptation to the necessities of the animals, and especially of man, with all the innumerable contrivances for the well-being of mankind; and then, after thus considering the order of the universe, let them beware of doing ought which is displeasing to the Creator of this universe, of the soul and its intelligent principle; and let them rest assured that punishment shall be inflicted on the wicked, and rewards shall be bestowed upon the righteous, by Him who deals with every one as he deserves, and who will proportion His rewards to the good that each has done, and to the account of himself that he is able to give. And let all men know that the good shall be advanced to a higher state, and that the wicked shall be delivered over to sufferings and torments, in punishment of their licentiousness and depravity, their cowardice, timidity, and all their follies.
Origen De Principiis. Book IV. Chap. I
23. For perhaps as those who, departing this world in virtue of that death which is common to all, are arranged, in conformity with their actions and deserts - according as they shall be deemed worthy - some in the place which is called “hell,” others in the bosom of Abraham, and in different localities or mansions; so also from those places, as if dying there, if the expression can be used, do they come down from the “upper world” to this “ hell.” For that “ hell” to which the souls of the dead are conducted from this world, is, I believe, on account of this distinction, called the “lower hell” by Scripture, as is said in the book of Psalms: “Thou hast delivered my soul from the lowest hell” (Cf. Psa_30:3 and Deu_32:22)

Of course i don't have many learned men and scholars i can refer to in favour of my position during the 1000-1500 years of the darkness of the Dark & Middle ages, Inquisitions, Crusades, burnings & torturings of so-called "heretics" by the "church". That is, the "church" that supported the doctrine you also support, namely that Love Omnipotent will send the unrepentant wicked to endless conscious torments.

It is not me who says that God and Jesus will send the unrepentant to endless conscious torment, it is scripture.

If you were living back then you could have argued that all the scholars were on the side of the "church". How objective do you think those scholars were? Could they resist the truths presented by the Protestants? How objective or biased are scholars today? Publishing books can make them a lot of money.

I have never said all scholars believed anything at any time.

That 1000-1500 years gave the "church" many years to destroy, adulterate, rewrite & burn any writings or any thing that disagreed with its dogmas.

And God lied when He said this?

So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it. (Isaiah 55:11)

At what age do the young qualify for this monstrous destiny in your theology? Does it include babies as the Calvinist Calvin stated? Or do they have to be a bit older to qualify for such sadism? Say 4, 6, 10 years old? Young, middle or older teenage years?

Romans 4:15
(15) Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
Romans 5:13
(13) (For until the law sin was in the world: but sin is not imputed when there is no law.

Most of the bibliography is dated back around 1900. How easy is it to find such items & read them? Most are also written in foreign languages? Did you read those? So how would you rate the usefulness of the bibliography. On a scale of 0 to 10, about a zero? Do you think there might have been something written on the subject that's a bit more recent than 120 years old?

If you have credible, verifiable, historical evidence relating to what I have posted please feel free to post it. Being old does not in and of itself disqualify a source

What i recall is comparing it to your posts which i often find contain untruths, myths and fairy tales.....

Nonsense!

ClementofA · Jun 15, 2017

Der Alter said:
Perhaps you should actually read my post to gain an understanding of what I said. The Greek word Hades, translated "hell" in some versions, is used in three different ways in the NT. It can refer to the grave. e.g. Acts 2:27, a fiery place of torment, e.g. Luke 16:23, and in one instance a sentient being is named "Hades/hell" e.g. Revelation 6:8. Which one of these did I specifically say was cast into the LOF?

Just as i implied. In post #410 you quote Rev.6:8 & state:

"The two sentient beings I call the angel of death and the demon of hell are thrown into the LOF and their power to kill ended."

So again:

According to you "hell" in Revelation 20:14 refers to a "sentient being" who will be tormented for all eternity. This "hell" person, therefore, will not pass away.
But according to the Jews, "hell shall pass away".

So if Revelation 20:14 refers to a place named "hell" passing away, then are you not wrong in your view that the "hell" of the verse will last forever?

Evidently you posted the verse to show support for the Pharisees' belief that "hell shall pass away", yet your own interpretation of the verse opposes a Pharisaical interpretation of the verse.

Moreover, if "hell shall pass away", what does that say about Jesus' warnings about "hell" (Gehenna, Hades, etc)? That they refer to places of temporary punishment, not "eternal" punishments in "unquenchable" fires that don't go out?

To those who believe the Bible threatens endless conscious torments

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