Why does God allow certain people to be born when God knows that individual may turn against him?

Reformationist said:

I'll simply put out that the very thing that got humanity into trouble in the first place was man's desire to not submit to God's authority.

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It began higher in the chain of command (Ephesians 6:12).

Serving Zion said:

It began higher in the chain of command (Ephesians 6:12).

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Sorry, not following you on that one. Can you explain?

Reformationist said:

Sorry, not following you on that one. Can you explain?

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The serpent was the most cunning of all God's creatures - but why did it turn against God and humanity? Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 12:9 show that the rebellious ones in the heavenly realms are doomed in Jesus' name.

Whether life is good or bad, is an opinion. That opinion takes our expectation as a reference. Some expectations are fair (eg, that we should breathe freely and have food, shelter and love). Some expectations are not fair (need I point at anyone in particular?).

Our actions impact the world, to change it. Sometimes it is good for us and others, sometimes it is bad for us and others. What makes us act in the way that we do? It is our beliefs.

The humans were created free of all rules - no problems, they could eat freely of any tree. But that is because their beliefs were pure, holy and good. One day they were tempted to believe a lie - that they could be as God, yet opposed to God, and also to not die.

Soon after this, Cain killed Abel. This was the first recorded murder. How did that happen? Simply, the human was not obeying God (Genesis 4:7). He also was not loving his brother, and blessing his brother's approval, instead being jealous and hating his brother for what his brother did that is good. Also Joseph suffered this way at the hands of his brothers.

If, therefore, Cain did what was unholy and chose to disobey God despite that God spoke clearly to him, where did the alternative perspective come from? Why did his thoughts get consumed by the hatred toward his brother? This is an unholy spiritual influence that tempted him by his sin.

Today's humans are tempted the very same way .. those spirits who oppose God are very much alive and active within churches, where jealousies and pride cause Christians to hate instead of love. This is because the spirit of the antichrist has poisoned the church with false doctrines so that it's members believe all sorts of lies that make them depart from real truth and yield unto the father of lies instead of God. You can read of this in 2 Peter 2:1-3 for an example. The sin that then grips them hates with murder, the ones having righteousness to convict them with truth (John 16:2).

However, many prophecies state that God's plan will save the world, and there will be no longer a place for the devil in the world, because at that time, the knowledge of God will fill the earth. Satan's empire will be ground up and blown away like dust in the wind (Isaiah 11:6-9, Isaiah 6:13, Daniel 12:3, Daniel 2:35).

This is how it works: the light has come into the world, but those who hate the light refuse to go near it for fear their deeds be exposed. To him who has, even more will be given, but to him who has not, even what he has will be taken away from him. The ones who take the best seat at the table will be displaced by those having greater honour when they enter. In this way, many who are first shall be last, and last, first.

Just as it was in the days of Noah, the people will be feasting and having merry celebrations right up until the rains began to fall, then it will be too late to repent, the door will have been locked.

"I came to light a fire on earth that will never be extinguished, and what more could I wish for if it had already been lit?"

Therefore I echo Jesus: keep watch, for you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

Reformationist said:

Lol! Feel however pleases you. That's between you and God. I'll simply put out that the very thing that got humanity into trouble in the first place was man's desire to not submit to God's authority. Way to keep the trend alive.

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No it isn't because God has absolutely NOTHING to do with that abominable concept.

BTW
The kind of authority you are demanding the mankind submit to is sadistically abusive and criminally minded. The being that you are describing is hateful and unworthy of worship, admiration or emulation. That is not my heavenly Father-Not by a long shot.

Serving Zion said:

The serpent was the most cunning of all God's creatures - but why did it turn against God and humanity? Matthew 25:41 and Revelation 12:9 show that the rebellious ones in the heavenly realms are doomed in Jesus' name.

Whether life is good or bad, is an opinion. That opinion takes our expectation as a reference. Some expectations are fair (eg, that we should breathe freely and have food, shelter and love). Some expectations are not fair (need I point at anyone in particular?).

Our actions impact the world, to change it. Sometimes it is good for us and others, sometimes it is bad for us and others. What makes us act in the way that we do? It is our beliefs.

The humans were created free of all rules - no problems, they could eat freely of any tree. But that is because their beliefs were pure, holy and good. One day they were tempted to believe a lie - that they could be as God, yet opposed to God, and also to not die.

Soon after this, Cain killed Abel. This was the first recorded murder. How did that happen? Simply, the human was not obeying God (Genesis 4:7). He also was not loving his brother, and blessing his brother's approval, instead being jealous and hating his brother for what his brother did that is good. Also Joseph suffered this way at the hands of his brothers.

If, therefore, Cain did what was unholy and chose to disobey God despite that God spoke clearly to him, where did the alternative perspective come from? Why did his thoughts get consumed by the hatred toward his brother? This is an unholy spiritual influence that tempted him by his sin.

Today's humans are tempted the very same way .. those spirits who oppose God are very much alive and active within churches, where jealousies and pride cause Christians to hate instead of love. This is because the spirit of the antichrist has poisoned the church with false doctrines so that it's members believe all sorts of lies that make them depart from real truth and yield unto the father of lies instead of God. You can read of this in 2 Peter 2:1-3 for an example. The sin that then grips them hates with murder, the ones having righteousness to convict them with truth (John 16:2).

However, many prophecies state that God's plan will save the world, and there will be no longer a place for the devil in the world, because at that time, the knowledge of God will fill the earth. Satan's empire will be ground up and blown away like dust in the wind (Isaiah 11:6-9, Isaiah 6:13, Daniel 12:3, Daniel 2:35).

This is how it works: the light has come into the world, but those who hate the light refuse to go near it for fear their deeds be exposed. To him who has, even more will be given, but to him who has not, even what he has will be taken away from him. The ones who take the best seat at the table will be displaced by those having greater honour when they enter. In this way, many who are first shall be last, and last, first.

Just as it was in the days of Noah, the people will be feasting and having merry celebrations right up until the rains began to fall, then it will be too late to repent, the door will have been locked.

"I came to light a fire on earth that will never be extinguished, and what more could I wish for if it had already been lit?"

Therefore I echo Jesus: keep watch, for you do not know on what day your Lord will come.

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Okay. No clue how that was supposed to clear up your previously cryptic statement but, thanks for the response...I think.

Radrook said:

That is not my heavenly Father-Not by a long shot.

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Silly Radrook...no need to clarify. Anyone who reads your posts would realize straight off that you worship some other god. But hey, thanks for clarifying that anyway. It helps.

Reformationist said:

Okay. No clue how that was supposed to clear up your previously cryptic statement but, thanks for the response...I think.

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You could just need time, and to take the words slowly (even prayerfully). Also consider Ezekiel 8:6.

Reformationist said:

So God created someone that He knew before creating them would reject Him and, thus, suffer eternity in hell because...He loved them?

And why do some choose to "return His love" and some choose to "turn their back on Him?"


And was He successful? Did He restore the relationship between us and God?


But didn't Jesus know exactly who would embrace Him and who would reject Him, and didn't He know who those people were before they were even created?

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"And why do some choose to "return His love" and some choose to "turn their back on Him?"

Because they have not gotten a revelation of how much God truly loves them. If Christians spent less time beating people with the word of God, and more time showing them how much God loves them then more people would return that love back to God. But instead, we Christians go around telling unbeliever how terrible and sinful they are, and how they are a stench in God's nose, and we wonder why people aren't lining up to get saved. As Paul put it in romans 2:4, despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

"And was He successful? Did He restore the relationship between us and God?"

Absolutely! Paul makes this point very clear in the book of Roman. Jesus took the punishment and wrath for our sins and made peace between us and God and brought us back into right standing and relationship with him. How people can rejects such a great salvation is a mystery to me, but it doesn't help when people are misrepresenting Him.

"But didn't Jesus know exactly who would embrace Him and who would reject Him, and didn't He know who those people were before they were even created?"

Yes, the bible tells us that God foreknew everyone who accept him, and that those he foreknew would accept him he made a plan for their life. So with that, we can safely assume he knows everyone who is also going to reject him as well. So why create them? That is the million dollar question. Now, I don't have a full revelation on this answers, so I'll probably end up repeating myself, but again, it all comes down to love. God created us so that he could love on us, and so that we return that love back to him. Rev 4 tells us that he created us for his pleasure, and in psalms 22 he inhabits the praises of his people. God just wanted people he could show his love and goodness to, and in return he hoped they would love him back.

So why did he allow people to be born who he knew would forsake him? For the chance of having someone love him back. God could have completely written us off after we chose to rebel again him, and he had several opportunities to do so, especially during the time of Noah, but he didn't. Like I mentioned before, God knew before he created the universe that mankind would fall, yet he still decided to go on with creating us, and he even had a plan in place to save us. Did we deserve it? No. Did we has a human race deserve the wrath and punishment of God? Absolutely? But God so loved the world (John 3:16). Not only that, but God demonstrated his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.
(Romans 5:8). Is he happy that people end up in Hell? Absolutely not! God not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 peter 3:9). But people end up their anyways because they don't know the truth, and that truth is we serve an awesome God.

In response to the OP, "If he could be turned (to the dark side of the force), then he could be a great Sith and a valuable asset to us, hey, hey, ha, ha, hey, hey... (sidious laughter)... "all is going according to my design"... Hey, hey, ha, hey...

Yet, "how" did it "end"...? Everything did not exactly go according his design, the way it looked like it was going, and was going to (end), did it...?

Satan is like the emperor... God is really the ultimate deceiver, of him (Satan) though, not us...

Anyhow, often, ones value or ability or competence in a thing can be the same measure for either good or bad...

God Bless!

Neonap said in post #1:

Why does God form someone, if he knows that person will reject Him and end up in hell . . .

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Because God doesn't love everyone. He hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of His mercy so He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of His character to be made known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all non-Christians of all times are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth to witness the suffering of the damned in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

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The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). So it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians so on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

Neonap said in post #16:

Well some do hold the belief that a Christian can fall away or lose their salvation,
which side I agree with I'm not sure.

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The latter side is correct. For note the Bible doesn't teach once-saved-always-saved, but shows that initially saved people, that is, Christians, will obtain ultimate salvation only "if" they continue in the faith to the end (Hebrews 3:6,12,14, Colossians 1:23). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to depart from the faith, to no longer believe, to commit apostasy (Luke 8:13; 1 Timothy 4:1; 2 Timothy 4:3-4; 2 Thessalonians 2:3, Hebrews 3:12, Matthew 13:21), to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Hebrews 6:4-8, John 15:6; 2 Timothy 2:12b, Mark 8:35-38, Hebrews 10:38-39, Matthew 24:9-13).

Also, even if they do continue in the faith, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also patiently continue to the end in obedience and good works (Romans 2:6-8, James 2:24, Matthew 7:21, Philippians 2:12b; 2 Corinthians 5:9, Hebrews 5:9; 2 Peter 1:10-11, Hebrews 6:10-12, Philippians 3:11-14; 1 John 2:17b), as in works of faith (1 Thessalonians 1:3, Galatians 5:6b, Titus 3:8) (not works of the letter of the Old Covenant Mosaic law). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to become utterly lazy without repentance, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Matthew 25:26,30, John 15:2a).

Also, even if they do continue in faith and good works of faith, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they also continue to the end to repent from every sin they commit (Hebrews 10:26-29; 1 Corinthians 9:27, Matthew 7:22-23, Galatians 5:19-21). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that, instead of wrongly employing their free will to commit unrepentant sin, to the ultimate loss of their salvation (Luke 12:45-46; 2 Peter 2:20-22, Romans 8:13; 1 John 5:16, James 5:19-20).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they get water-immersion (burial) baptized into Jesus Christ's death for our sins (Mark 16:16; 1 Peter 3:21, Romans 6:3-11, Colossians 2:12, Galatians 3:27, Acts 2:38). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. Acts 22:16a).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they partake of the divine flesh and blood of the bread and wine of Communion (John 6:53, Matthew 26:26-28; 1 Corinthians 10:16; 1 Corinthians 11:27-30). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (cf. John 6:60,66).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they forgive everyone for every wrong (Matthew 6:14-15). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Matthew 18:21-35).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they do all they can (Romans 12:18) to make reparations to and peace with everyone whom they have ever wronged (Matthew 5:23-26, cf. Acts 24:16). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they help other Christians in need (Matthew 25:34-46). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (3 John 1:10b).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they provide for their families (1 Timothy 5:8). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that.

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't commit the unforgivable sin, which is blaspheming the Holy Spirit (Mark 3:29). An example of blaspheming the Holy Spirit is saying an act performed by the power of the Holy Spirit (e.g. Matthew 12:28) was performed by Satan (Mark 3:22-30). There's no assurance Christians will never choose to say that (cf. 1 Corinthians 14:39b; 1 Thessalonians 5:19).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't remove words from the book of Revelation and publish the altered text as if it were the original, without repentance (Revelation 22:19). And there's no assurance they will never choose to do that (cf. 2 Corinthians 4:2).

Also, Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they don't worship the future Antichrist and his image, and don't willingly receive his mark on their right hand or forehead (Revelation 14:9-12, Revelation 13:16-18). And there's no assurance they won't choose to do those things (1 Timothy 4:1).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they continue in God's goodness to the end (Romans 11:20-22). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Luke 12:45-46).

Christians will obtain ultimate salvation only if they overcome to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:11, Revelation 2:26). And there's no assurance they will choose to do that (Revelation 21:7-8).

All this is said not to engender any unhealthy fear in Christians, but the healthy fear which all Christians are supposed to have (e.g. Romans 11:20-22).

And all this is said not to engender any despair in Christians, but the healthy, close-clinging to the person of Jesus Christ Himself, which all Christians must continue in (John 15:4-6). For while God makes it possible for Christians to do the right thing (Philippians 2:13) toward their ultimate salvation (Romans 2:6-8, Philippians 2:12b, Matthew 7:21), this is possible only so long as they continue to abide in Jesus. For on their own, apart from Jesus, they can't do anything good (John 15:4-5).

Also, Jesus isn't a hard taskmaster. He will never give Christians more work to do for Him than they can easily bear (Matthew 11:28-30). So if Christians ever get stressed out that Jesus is asking them to do too much, it's not Jesus asking them to do whatever is stressing them out (Luke 10:40-42). They need to take a step back and ask Jesus what particular spiritual work He's actually asking them as individuals to do (Mark 13:34, Romans 12:6-8).

Bible2+ said:

Because God doesn't love everyone. He hates the nonelect (Romans 9:11-22). During their lifetime, God hardens the nonelect in their sinfulness instead of showing them His mercy (Romans 9:18), because He created them to be vessels of His wrath (Romans 9:20-22, Proverbs 16:4). They were of old ordained to condemnation (Jude 1:4). They were appointed to disobedience (1 Peter 2:8, Acts 2:23). But God never forces them or anyone else to commit sin. He never even tempts anyone to commit sin (James 1:13-15). All people will justly be held accountable for their deeds (Romans 2:6-8), for neither election nor nonelection takes away the free will of people.

God created nonelect people to be vessels of His wrath instead of vessels of His mercy so He might eternally make known His wrath and power (Romans 9:21-22, Proverbs 16:4, Revelation 14:10-11). And God created elect people to be vessels of His mercy so He might eternally make known His mercy, glory, and wisdom (Romans 9:23, Ephesians 3:10, Ephesians 1:8,11).

God wants these aspects of His character to be made known both to humans and angels (Ephesians 3:10), neither of which group yet knows experientially the full extent of God's qualities and abilities (1 Corinthians 2:9; 1 Peter 1:12b). For example, the full extent of God's wrath won't be known to humans and angels until Satan and his fallen angels and all non-Christians of all times are cast into the eternal suffering of the lake of fire and brimstone (Matthew 25:41,46, Revelation 20:10,15, Revelation 14:10-11), and Christians and holy angels go forth from the city of New Jerusalem on the New Earth to witness the suffering of the damned in the lake of fire (Isaiah 66:24), the eternal hell (Mark 9:45-46), and realize by seeing it, not only the extent of God's wrath, but by it, by way of contrast, the extent of God's mercy toward them (Lamentations 3:22-23). Just as "up" can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of "down", so God's mercy can't be eternally known for what it is without the eternal coexistence of His wrath.

--

The elect are those individuals, whether Jews or Gentiles, who were chosen (elected) and predestinated by God before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4-11; 2 Thessalonians 2:13), before they were born (Romans 9:11-24), to become initially saved by faith in Jesus Christ and His Gospel at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b; 2 Timothy 2:10; 1 Corinthians 15:1-4). This initial salvation is possible only because of Jesus' sacrifice on the Cross for our sins (Romans 3:25-26), which was also foreordained by God before the foundation of the world (Revelation 13:8; 1 Peter 1:19-20).

Everyone on his own is wholly corrupt (Romans 3:9-12). So it's impossible for people on their own to ever believe in Jesus and His Gospel and be initially saved (1 Corinthians 15:1-4, John 20:31; 1 John 5:13) through their own will (Romans 9:16, John 1:13, John 6:65) or their own intellect (1 Corinthians 1:18 to 2:16). Unsaved people can't understand the Gospel (1 Corinthians 2:14; 1 Corinthians 1:18) because only initially saved people, who have received the miraculous gift of some measure of God's own Spirit, can understand it (1 Corinthians 2:11-16).

The nonelect can't ever believe in Jesus Christ and His Gospel and be initially saved, even when they're shown the truth (John 8:42-47, John 10:26, Matthew 13:38-42). For the ability to believe in Jesus and His Gospel comes only to the elect (Acts 13:48b) wholly by God's grace as a miraculous gift from God (Ephesians 2:8, John 6:65; 1 Corinthians 3:5b, Romans 12:3b, Hebrews 12:2) as the elect read (or hear) God's Word the Holy Bible (Romans 10:17, Acts 13:48, Acts 26:22-23), just as the ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18). Satan blinds the minds of non-Christians so on their own they can't repent and acknowledge the truth of God's Word (2 Corinthians 4:4; 2 Timothy 2:25-26).

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God, the Father, and, God, the Son... God the Father does not hate anything or anyone and never has, (although he does create some people bad and to be and stay bad, in order to use for his purposes in bettering his chosen ones and making them more like him) But, he doesn't hate the bad ones...

The Son, God, the Son, "used to" though, but his anger was quenched for a time by executing it upon his own self, but, the Son (or the wrath of the lamb) (not the wrath of the Father, but the Son) The Son will execute angry judgment again, but only once and only one last time, then, no more...

The Father is probably trying to hide his face laughing at all of this, from the onset of it all, with his Son, God, the Son in the OT, the enemy, and us...

He tries to hide it I think, (The Father) because we just "would not understand"... Much like a parent will laugh when their child is upset or only minorly hurt about something you may think is just plain "silly" and small and you might laugh about (accidentally in front of them) and the child does not understand, and may even get mad at you for laughing... And the parent is thinking "Oh, dear child, one day you (will all) grow up, and we will be able to look back at all of this, and talk about it and laugh together, but, not right now...

Much like adults operate on a "much higher level" than children, (and the child does not understand the parent's behavior like laughing at them) due to this, I think it is much this way, with the Father and the rest of us... We just "do not understand", cause he is operating on a much higher level than any of us, including God, the Son, and any other, created by him, "being"...

God Bless!

Theadorus said:

Because they have not gotten a revelation of how much God truly loves them. If Christians spent less time beating people with the word of God, and more time showing them how much God loves them then more people would return that love back to God. But instead, we Christians go around telling unbeliever how terrible and sinful they are, and how they are a stench in God's nose, and we wonder why people aren't lining up to get saved.

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So God loves those who end up going to hell so much that He doesn't even ensure they know how much He loves them and, instead, leaves it up to Christians who improperly convey the depths of His grace and the riches of His mercy, even to the damnation of those He loves? Does God have no control over His creation or is He helpless in the face of their weakness?

Absolutely! Paul makes this point very clear in the book of Roman. Jesus took the punishment and wrath for our sins and made peace between us and God and brought us back into right standing and relationship with him. How people can rejects such a great salvation is a mystery to me, but it doesn't help when people are misrepresenting Him.

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I'm sorry, so Jesus actually made peace between God and all mankind or did He just make peace possible?

So with that, we can safely assume he knows everyone who is also going to reject him as well. So why create them? That is the million dollar question. Now, I don't have a full revelation on this answers, so I'll probably end up repeating myself, but again, it all comes down to love. God created us so that he could love on us, and so that we return that love back to him.

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Okaaay...but your contending that He created people to love on that He knew were not going to love Him back...knowledge He had before He created them. Right?

God just wanted people he could show his love and goodness to, and in return he hoped they would love him back.

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Um...did God "hope" the people that He knew wouldn't love Him back would act contrary to His divine knowledge and love Him back anyway?

So why did he allow people to be born who he knew would forsake him? For the chance of having someone love him back.

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Sorry Theadorus but this is not biblical. There's no such thing as "chance" in a conversation about God.

Not only that, but God demonstrated his own love for us in this: While we were still sinners, Christ died for us.

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For whom did Christ die, and what was He trying to accomplish in His atoning sacrifice?

God not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance (2 peter 3:9).

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So, do you think God would stop people from perishing if He could?

Reformationist said in post #93:

Does God have no control over His creation or is He helpless in the face of their weakness?

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Good point.

For God isn't limited to the obedience of Christians to preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ to everyone (Mark 16:15). He can also employ His angels to reach everyone with the Gospel (Revelation 14:6). And He Himself can appear to people to save them directly (Acts 26:13-20).

Reformationist said in post #93:

There's no such thing as "chance" in a conversation about God.

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Another good point.

And it brings up a question relevant to the OP: "Doesn't God's omniscience negate free will, so either God isn't omniscient or there's no free will?"

The answer is God is definitely omniscient, for in Him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3; 1 John 3:20b). He's able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and His foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But His omniscience coexists with His giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they're going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20, Philemon 1:14).

An analogy for how people can have a meaningful free will and yet God can already know what they're going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" which sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the entire hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all the different melodies and rhythms which was unlike anything anyone had heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day, and showed it off to the world.

But when the symphony musicians began watching the movie at its world premiere, with all the most-famous musicians of the world seated around them in the theater, some of the symphony musicians began to squirm in their seats. For example, one of the bass players had happened to choose that day (the day the movie was made) just to stand there and not play anything. The movie showed him eating Twix, and just staring off into space for the whole hour. And one of the violin players had just happened to choose that day not to play anything either, but to file her nails and flip through a magazine.

After the movie was over, those two musicians, as well as some others who had been publicly mortified, filed a civil suit against the conductor for defamation of character. At the trial, they testified before the judge: "Before the movie was shown, we all had good reputations as fine musicians. Now we are the laughingstocks of the musical world. Our careers might never recover from this. The conductor knew before he showed the movie to the world that it would result in our ruin, and yet he showed it anyway. Clearly, his intent was malicious, and we seek damages".

But then the conductor testified: "Your honor, I honestly had no malice toward these musicians. The procedure of making the film was quite random. We made scores of different films, and in many of them, these musicians played brilliantly. But the sound of the symphony as a whole on those days was unbearable to listen to, so those films had to be rejected. It was just by chance that the one day which sounded wonderful, they happened to have made fools of themselves by their own free will. They themselves chose to act that way that day. I didn't make them do anything".

The judge agreed and dismissed the case. He told the musicians: "I'm sorry, but you don't really have a legal leg to stand on. For you knew the conductor was making a film of that day, and the plan was to show it off to the world if it sounded good. It's your own fault you chose to act the way you did that day" (cf. James 1:13-15).

Similar to this analogy, before God created the world, He could have reviewed an infinite number of different threads (as it were) of all the possible free-willed sequences of events which could occur in the world, based on all the possible choices each individual could make during his or her lifetime. For example, in one thread, right after God created Adam, Adam could have chosen first to walk around the south side of the Garden of Eden, while in another thread, Adam chose first to walk around the north side, and in another he chose first just to sit on the grass and look at the trees, and so on through all the different possibilities for his first choice, and then through all the different possibilities for all his subsequent choices, and then through all the possible choices made by everyone else from the beginning of the world to the end of it. After reviewing the infinite number of threads of all the possible sequences of free-willed choices, God could have chosen to create, to bring into actual existence, that one thread which would give Him the best opportunity to eternally show both His mercy and His holy wrath (Romans 9:22-23).

Also similar to the movie analogy is the scientific idea of the "block universe", meaning that time, from the viewpoint of physics in itself (that is, outside of how humans happen to experience time) there's no arrow of time: The past, present, and future of all space in the universe exist as one block of a four-dimensional space-time. So the past still exists, and the future already exists. This is similar to how all the frames of a film, all its moments of time, exist at the same time in one reel of film, and yet we humans happen to experience a film only one frame at a time, and in one direction. Also, with regard to the "block universe", quantum-level experiments have shown the future determines the past as much as the past determines the future. So from the viewpoint of Christians, this means they can pray for God's will to be done in the past, just as they can pray for it to be done in the future. For example, if they remember a close call in their past when they just barely escaped having a car accident, they can presently pray God would keep them from having that accident, and this could help them to avoid it. That is, they could have avoided it because years later they prayed to avoid it.

Reformationist said in post #93:

For whom did Christ die, and what was He trying to accomplish in His atoning sacrifice?

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Jesus Christ's divine/human sacrifice was sufficient to forgive the sins of everyone (1 John 2:2). But it was performed in order to actually forgive the sins not of everyone (Romans 9:18-24), but of only the elect.

For Jesus' sheep whom He died to save (John 10:11,14-15) are the elect (1 Peter 1:2; 1 Peter 3:18; 1 Peter 4:1), those who are able to believe in Him (John 10:27), and who will believe in Him at some point during their lifetime (Acts 13:48b), as opposed to the nonelect, who can't ever believe in Him (John 8:42-47), because they aren't His sheep (John 10:26).

Reformationist said in post #93:

So, do you think God would stop people from perishing if He could?

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2 Peter 3:9b means God isn't willing any of the elect perish, but that all the elect repent. For the "any" and the "all" refer back to the "us" (or "you"), which refers back to the elect (2 Peter 1:10). God is willing the nonelect perish, for He purposely created them to perish (Romans 9:21-22). The ability to repent comes only as a miraculous gift from God (2 Timothy 2:25, Acts 11:18), and He gives it only to the elect. For He isn't willing the nonelect repent (Romans 9:18-22).

Bible2+ said:

And it brings up a question relevant to the OP: "Doesn't God's omniscience negate free will, so either God isn't omniscient or there's no free will?"

The answer is God is definitely omniscient, for in Him is found all knowledge (Colossians 2:2b-3; 1 John 3:20b). He's able to declare the end from the beginning (Isaiah 46:10), and His foreknowledge is determinate (Acts 2:23, Revelation 1:1). But His omniscience coexists with His giving people free will. He still lets people choose for themselves what they're going to do (Joshua 24:15, Deuteronomy 30:19, Isaiah 1:19-20, Philemon 1:14).

An analogy for how people can have a meaningful free will and yet God can already know what they're going to choose to do, would be a symphony conductor who wanted to make a film of a "Free Will Symphony" which sounded good enough to show off to the world. So he told his symphony musicians his plan, set up a movie camera in front of them, and said each of them could start playing whatever he or she wanted for an hour. But when they all started playing, it sounded awful for the entire hour. It was utter cacophony. So the conductor sent them home and told them to come back the next day and try again. The next day sounded worse than the first. And the day after that was also bad. This went on day after day for months, until one day the most amazing sound arose from the symphony, a congeries of all the different melodies and rhythms which was unlike anything anyone had heard before. So the conductor kept the movie of that day, and showed it off to the world.

But when the symphony musicians began watching the movie at its world premiere, with all the most-famous musicians of the world seated around them in the theater, some of the symphony musicians began to squirm in their seats. For example, one of the bass players had happened to choose that day (the day the movie was made) just to stand there and not play anything. The movie showed him eating Twix, and just staring off into space for the whole hour. And one of the violin players had just happened to choose that day not to play anything either, but to file her nails and flip through a magazine.

After the movie was over, those two musicians, as well as some others who had been publicly mortified, filed a civil suit against the conductor for defamation of character. At the trial, they testified before the judge: "Before the movie was shown, we all had good reputations as fine musicians. Now we are the laughingstocks of the musical world. Our careers might never recover from this. The conductor knew before he showed the movie to the world that it would result in our ruin, and yet he showed it anyway. Clearly, his intent was malicious, and we seek damages".

But then the conductor testified: "Your honor, I honestly had no malice toward these musicians. The procedure of making the film was quite random. We made scores of different films, and in many of them, these musicians played brilliantly. But the sound of the symphony as a whole on those days was unbearable to listen to, so those films had to be rejected. It was just by chance that the one day which sounded wonderful, they happened to have made fools of themselves by their own free will. They themselves chose to act that way that day. I didn't make them do anything".

The judge agreed and dismissed the case. He told the musicians: "I'm sorry, but you don't really have a legal leg to stand on. For you knew the conductor was making a film of that day, and the plan was to show it off to the world if it sounded good. It's your own fault you chose to act the way you did that day" (cf. James 1:13-15).

Similar to this analogy, before God created the world, He could have reviewed an infinite number of different threads (as it were) of all the possible free-willed sequences of events which could occur in the world, based on all the possible choices each individual could make during his or her lifetime. For example, in one thread, right after God created Adam, Adam could have chosen first to walk around the south side of the Garden of Eden, while in another thread, Adam chose first to walk around the north side, and in another he chose first just to sit on the grass and look at the trees, and so on through all the different possibilities for his first choice, and then through all the different possibilities for all his subsequent choices, and then through all the possible choices made by everyone else from the beginning of the world to the end of it. After reviewing the infinite number of threads of all the possible sequences of free-willed choices, God could have chosen to create, to bring into actual existence, that one thread which would give Him the best opportunity to eternally show both His mercy and His holy wrath (Romans 9:22-23).

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The inherent problem with these analogies is that they work off the unbiblical presumption that God does not govern his creation but, rather, sets the creation plan into motion and then must make the best of what He gets. It's simply not in accord with Scripture. The OT Scriptures don't show Joseph declaring that "what you meant for evil, God used for good." This is the doctrine of concurrence, explicitly revealed in God's Word. We aren't told that "most of the sparrows don't fall to the ground apart from the will of God." God is sovereign over all of history, not just most of it.

God, the Father, God, the Son...

Peace,

God Bless!

Reformationist said:

Silly Radrook...no need to clarify. Anyone who reads your posts would realize straight off that you worship some other god. But hey, thanks for clarifying that anyway. It helps.

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Thanks! I definitely would never want anyone to think that I would worship a god who is imagined to send people to be roasted alive forever. That would not just be silly-it would be sick.

BTW
Try not to accuse my heavenly Father of doing something that you personally would never do neither to another human but not even to an animal.

Radrook said:

Thanks! I definitely would never want anyone to think that I would worship a god who is imagined to send people to be roasted alive forever. That would not just be silly-it would be sick.

BTW
Try not to accuse my heavenly Father of doing something that you personally would never do neither to another human but not even to an animal.

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Please try to keep in mind that, hell could be any other reality (like this one), where there is always weeping and knashing of teeth, which the fire that "burns" or hurts forever but does not consume or burn up, that the fire could be only "symbolic" or metaphorical fire (of)... Hell could be any other reality besides Heaven, that when, in comparison and compared to the reality of Heaven, is a hell...

Where souls could be recycled and those souls that are recycled, the spirit in them could be "tormented" "forever" due to never being able to change or transition out of, or to, or from, the/those hellish realities, but are forever stuck there, in a reality that is like hell, or is hellish in nature...

God Bless!

About God's omniscience and free will...

There is an episode of Star Trek TNG, where a traveler from the future goes back in time to witness and event that the enterprise and it's crew and Captain Picard are to be an important part of...

They're considering a very risky plan to save a world and the person from the future has come to them to observe and not interfere...

Picard gets frustrated with this individual and says to him, (first tries to get him to help him make the right decision), then says to him: "Your refusal to tell me anything about this event, and to help me make a decision, leaves me with no choice but to proceed as I normally would... as if I have a choice... though your knowledge of our future seems to suggest we do not, and so, at that; you leave me with no choice but to proceed as if I have a choice and to act and choose as I would normally would choose, as if you were never here... and, since I've never been one to play it safe, we will proceed with our plan to try and save these people and this world although it could all end in disaster for all of us, if our plan fails... And, since you will not tell me or give me any kind of clue as to whether this will end in success or disaster, I will proceed, as I really have no choice, as I would normally choose to, and try our plan...

I wonder if God, the Son ever felt any of this kind of frustration with his Father over or about trying to save us...

God Bless!

Reformationist said:

"Potential" isn't a word that applies as the issue being raised is why God creates those He knows will reject Him. "Potential" is a mathematical term describing probability given specified parameters. This is a term humans use because our knowledge is finite and so we calculate probability. God's knowledge is not contingent upon His creation.

As I said, it doesn't apply in a discussion about God's choices.

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This assumes though that God knows exactly what we are going to pick in terms of good or evil which means that if someone were born destined to choose evil (Judas Iscariot perhaps? If Judas decided to be a good person long before he met Jesus then could any one else have betrayed Jesus?) then he/she would not really have a chance to be saved through Jesus Christ nor would he/she have any real free will.

But then again, I'm not a mathematician nor a philosopher nor a theologist. I'm just a layman.

(Also this is not shooting your argument or beliefs down. I believe that God knows what will happen to us depending on what choice we make between good and evil, not that we are all destined to do this or that. Again, not me telling you your wrong because while I'm college educated I'm not necessarily completely theologically educated lol)