That can't be true, "the love of Christ," "passeth knowledge," Ephesians 3:19. "Knowledge," can not be our, "salvation." It must be faith in the Word of the LORD, which is in Christ Jesus, 2 Timothy 3:15.
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2 Timothy 3:15
- Thread starter Kenneth Redden
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Yes, I would agree with that, but I would use the word, "meaning," in stead of "definition." The term, "definition," sounds too much like, "man's wisdom," and, "meaning," is a more correct understanding. The meaning of a word, or phrase may change, according to context and purpose.
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Earlier the claim was it is not faith, but knowledge. Now it is faith again. Am lost.
2 Timothy 3:15Kenneth Redden said:
So simple question. Is our salvation proceeding from having faith in Jesus Christ or having knowledge of Christ faith in Himself (your rendering of 2 Tim 3:15
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On second thought; "faith in the Word of the Lord" = faith in the Son of God = faith in Jesus Christ = what Saint Paul said = "which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
So no longer seeing any distinction being made here at all from the play on words used.
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You must be, I never said that about, "knowledge."
2 Timothy 3:15
No, it is the faith Christ Jesus has in the Word of the LORD that saves us. That's all.
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It's pretty obvious to me that you can't quite get your mind around, being "one," with the Father, John 10:30 KJV.
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But it is very simple, "hast not denied my faith" in the Word of God, can be found in Revelation 2:12-13. This is of the Word of God, because the angel of the church in Pergamos spoke for "he which hath the sharp sword with two edges," and the sword of the Spirit is the Word of God. Revelation 2:12 KJV and Ephesians 6:17 KJV.
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You said 2 Tim 3:15 should be understood as Jesus faith in Himself, shortened Jesus faith. Fine.
The only thing left in that verse then is scripture making the believer wise (knowledge) unto salvation.
"and that from a child thou hast known the sacred letters, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
Now that initial claim is apparently being retracted and the initial statement changed into a believer having "faith in the Word of the Lord" which in essence can be rendered to "faith in Jesus Christ" - which is then what any other Christian says 2 Tim 3:15 means. Which sort of makes the whole point of the rather shocking claim in the OP moot because that was never what was meant.
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The only thing obvious to me is someone changed their initial opinion from one that makes no sense to most Christians and now says the same thing every other Christian does about 2 Tim 3:15.
"faith in the Word of the Lord"(your "clarification" of your point) = "faith in Jesus Christ" which is what everyone else in this thread has said and clearly what Saint Paul said. This is so because Jesus is the Word.
An atheist does not need to be "one with the Father" to understand my point. So am not sure why anyone should think or question my having difficulty with being one with the Father. Your opinion of my faith is noted.
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Correct, salvation is the fruit from faith in Jesus Christ, just like Saint Paul said in 2 Tim 3:15
The OP incorrectly (later corrected self) rendered that verse to suggest wisdom(knowledge) of Jesus faith in Himself renders our salvation.
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Just stop.
Again, "the Word of the Lord" = Word of God=Jesus Christ=Son of God=the Word.
So 2 Tim 3:15 becomes what everyone else says it is. So Timothy's salvation sprouts not from wisdom, but from his "faith in Jesus Christ"="Faith in the Word"="faith in the Word of God"="faith in the Word of the Lord"
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What is OP? The fact is that 2 Timothy 3:15 says that salvation is through faith which is in Christ Jesus. That is what it means. Read the words, it is very simple.
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Are you saying that 2 Timothy 3:15 implies that faith unto salvation has nothing to do with the faith of the believer. If so, I agree.
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rather prefer the DBY myself and it rather plainly says something very different from the claim made in the OP (OP - original post or the person who started this thread).
2 Tim 3:15 DBY
"and that from a child thou hast known the sacred letters, which are able to make thee wise unto salvation, through faith which is in Christ Jesus."
And the only confusion in this thread was created because someone (not me) apparently mistakenly suggested Saint Paul was telling Timothy that his wisdom gained from Scripture (=knowledge) was the cause of his salvation and this somehow opposed to every other Christian's view of same verse as our faith in Christ is the cause.
Same person who created that confusion when questioned on it later corrected himself after apparently realizing the error made, the error which had confused everyone. In the correction, it was basically properly said our salvation flows from faith in the "Word" of God, which is the same thing everyone else here says 2 Tim 3:15 says = faith in Jesus Christ.
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There we go again.
Salvation has everything to do with our faith. Knowledge of Jesus's being saved is not even required for a soul to be in Heaven right now(at least not according to the faith of a good many of us - so people never hearing the good News can still be in Heaven for example).
That is what "faith in the Word of God" means to a Christian. Jesus is certainly "saved". So we cannot be talking about a demon obviously now knowing Jesus is saved becomes saved himself. The demon knows it is true that Jesus is in Heaven(the first fruit), but that knowledge does not save the demon. That knowledge does not save anyone. A Christian believes (has faith) our salvation is possible because of what He did for us.
Think you were better off just leaving it as you did when you corrected yourself with saying Saint Paul says - our salvation springs from "faith in the Word of God". Unless you are attempting to make a case that Jesus is not God or not the Word of God, so Saint Paul's words must be looked at differently because of it. But even if a non-believer in the Trinity, am not sure why the distinction needs to be made by a verse which is not really a direct expression of His Divinity.
Clarify please, what distinction do you think you are making by saying salvation is "faith in the Word of God" which makes that statement different from Saint Paul saying it is "faith in Jesus Christ". Why is different?
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Nevertheless, no matter what you say; my reading of 2 Timothy 3:15 is a correct reading, grammatically speaking. You cannot deny that or change it. That in itself is enough to put the whole Christian Religion in question! Because, we receive "salvation through faith which is in Christ Jesus." We do not receive salvation through our personal faith.
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The expression is not the issue. It is a misunderstanding of what Saint Paul says to Timothy and what most Christians really mean by saying they have "faith in Jesus Christ". Without out a broader understanding of other Christians beliefs and what they really mean by that statement, am not sure how one can so quickly condemn them for saying just that. And twisting words around to attempt to make the verse say something else is not helping others understand what the point/problem is with a simple statement about faith.
Many Christians, including Catholics, hold salvation to be a matter not completely settled until the end of this life. So with those Christians it is not usually a single act, (like the thief on the cross), but a complete and ongoing process of God (and others) helping to lead someone arriving in Heaven when this life is over. But even those saying simply that all they need to do is confess a genuine "faith" that Jesus Christ has "saved" them or that they have "faith in Jesus", when pressed will often admit it is not really that simple. We all need God's help (Grace) and we all also need each other's help to safely make it to Heaven.
For Catholics and many other Christians, it is also true that we believe even our faith is a gift from God. That belief excludes the whole notion that seems to trouble you about this verse and the way many of us use it, because even our faith is from God.
Having a "faith in Christ" is the believer acknowledging (and Saint Paul acknowledging that for Timothy) the first step has already occurred with God's help (the Spirit moved them to respond to His call) and this could be said by all Christians. This gift of faith from God is just the first baby step in our life's journey and our hope for salvation.
Don't believe me that this is what I believe 2 Tim 3:15 means or what I mean when I say our salvation starts with faith in Jesus. Fine. Then believe the teachings I will not stop following, the testimony of thousands of years of witness to the faith and recorded in the Catechism backs me up as being what all Catholics should believe about our "faith".
179 Faith is a supernatural gift from God. In order to believe, man needs the interior helps of the Holy Spirit.
Catechism of the Catholic Church - PART 1 SECTION 1 CHAPTER 3 ARTICLE 2
166 " Faith is a personal act - the free response of the human person to the initiative of God who reveals himself."
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Nevertheless, my reading is a correct reading of 2 Timothy 3:15 KJV; it must be true. Reconcile that! if you can.
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