Mary - Christian Prototype

Paul Yohannan said:

None of which has anything to do with Nestorianism, the Council of Ephesus or the term theotokos.

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Hello.
So am i to ignore the words of Jesus?

A few more thoughts about Mary. As i think of the reality of her entire journey, and how she traveled, while verrrry pregnant for a great distance, and there was no room in the inn when she and Joseph finally got to their destination for the census, and she was compelled to take refuge in a stable of all things (and there was no way the stable was clean, and it was surely a hardship of inexplicable proportions) and she actually gave birth there.

I saw a video once that was based on Mary and the actress was so real and reminded me of how Mary possibly reacted to the angel, and being chosen as she was, and the traveling and then being in the stable and giving birth.

The actress was an unknown as far as i know, and so was the actor who played Joseph. It was very precious to contemplate how it must've been for Mary and for Joseph too.

-(iconoclast)- said:

Hello.
So am i to ignore the words of Jesus?

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I am not ignoring the words of our Lord in refusing to apply them out of context and in a manner contradictory to other parts of the Gospel text, for example, John 1:1-14.

That's what this discussion is ultimately about. If we read John 1 literally, Jesus is God incarnate and St. Mary gave birth to Him as such, full stop.

Paul Yohannan said:

I am not ignoring the words of our Lord in refusing to apply them out of context and in a manner contradictory to other parts of the Gospel text, for example, John 1:1-14.

That's what this discussion is ultimately about. If we read John 1 literally, Jesus is God incarnate and St. Mary gave birth to Him as such, full stop.

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Thank you for your reply. We are all saints. Mary is the earthly mother of jesus. Full stop.

I agree

-(iconoclast)- said:

Hello thank you for your kind response.

Calling mary the earthly moyher of Jesus does not in any way denote Jesus.

Being born to a virgin is quite a miracle.

I believe we have to watch out how we say things because mary is not the mother of god.

That would be similar to making her a goddess.

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But my point is that this was all hashed out in detail before.

With all due respect, it doesn't make Mary a goddess in any sense, or it shouldn't. But Christ is the Divine Logos. And the Divine Logos was carried as in infant in the womb of Mary. She carried Him - God Himself, become Incarnate - within her body, and became mother to Him.

She is the bearer of God. If she is anything less, the infant Jesus wasn't God.

~Anastasia~ said:

But my point is that this was all hashed out in detail before.

With all due respect, it doesn't make Mary a goddess in any sense, or it shouldn't. But Christ is the Divine Logos. And the Divine Logos was carried as in infant in the womb of Mary. She carried Him - God Himself, become Incarnate - within her body, and became mother to Him.

She is the bearer of God. If she is anything less, the infant Jesus wasn't God.

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Mat 12:47-49

Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers
Jesus is God the Son. Did mary bear God the Father?

-(iconoclast)- said:

Mat 12:47-49

Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers
Jesus is God the Son. Did mary bear God the Father?

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You know, for every feast day associated with Mary, that is the reading in our Church.

But to be fair, no one ever said Mary was the mother of God the Father. It takes a great deal of confusion to even think such a thing. I doubt any Christian has ever been confused enough to think that.

But Christ IS God. Mary was the bearer of Christ. Thus she is the God-bearer.

To deny this is to deny that the Child she bore in her womb is God, and I don't think you mean to be doing that.

Christ is the God the Son. Our God is a trinity yes.

There is no scripture to back up mary being the mother of God.

Just the earthly mother of Jesus.

Mary is no different to anybody else who believes in Jesus, who was born to a virgin, lived, was crucified, was ressurrected and now sits on the right hand of God.

-(iconoclast)- said:

Mat 12:47-49

Someone told him, “Your mother and brothers are standing outside, wanting to speak to you.”

48 He replied to him, “Who is my mother, and who are my brothers?” 49 Pointing to his disciples, he said, “Here are my mother and my brothers
Jesus is God the Son. Did mary bear God the Father?

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No, but it would be a fair question for a Christian unclear about or not holding to the Trinity Doctrine. I do not think anyone using the title would confuse the two Persons or that we could speak of them as Individuals really "present" along with the Spirit, are One God. Note the distinct Presence of all Three at His Baptism, still One God.

Jesus is God Incarnate, which is same as saying God. To add His proper title of which Person to "Mother of God" would confuse the whole point of Her having this title in the first place - which was properly stated earlier - devotions and everything about Saint Mary point to Him, who we are to believe He is. In this case with that title, it is declaring our belief that He is God.
Someone can refresh my old memory, but I seem to recall the title first appears in a period when some people questioned His Divinity or maybe "full divinity" (as in lessor god), could be wrong. Regardless, His proper title of Son of God would not be as helpful in dispelling those false notions. While calling Her Mother of God should drive such thoughts out of peoples minds and reinforces the proper teaching about Who He is. Jesus is God.

Indeed ... nothing new under the sun.

Jesus is God. Mary is the mother of Jesus. Mary is the mother of God.

She was the earthly mother of Jesus, because she was an earthly person. But Jesus cannot be separated into "earthly" and "not earthly" ... He IS the Divine Logos. He was, is, and always will be God. Therefore when Mary, a human person, carried Jesus in her womb, she carried God Himself. Not the Father, but Christ IS God. This is to the glory of God!

I guess I still can't understand why people get upset and disagree on that point.

-(iconoclast)- said:

Christ is the God the Son. Our God is a trinity yes.

There is no scripture to back up mary being the mother of God.

Just the earthly mother of Jesus.

Mary is no different to anybody else who believes in Jesus, who was born to a virgin, lived, was crucified, was ressurrected and now sits on the right hand of God.

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But she is very much different and even the angel of God acknowledges this BEFORE the Virgin gives Jesus a "yes". She is also different because of Who He is, no other woman has carried God in Her Womb. And suggesting just another woman, which I actually heard a Baptist minister preach on, is certainly not what the Bible says about Saint Mary. It does not say all generations will call Her ordinary or common.

Im not rejected mary bearing jesus who is God the Son.

Jesus had an earthly form. Mary was His earthly mother.

Im done. If you want to believe mary is the mother of god. Then that is between you and God.

Mary is the earthly mother of jesus, when he was in the earthly form.

Does Jesus still have flesh?

~Anastasia~ said:

I guess I still can't understand why people get upset and disagree on that point.

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Ask Nestorius. He is known for having violently persecuted those who disagreed with him (St. Cyril is accused of this, but without real evidence IMO).

~Anastasia~ said:

Does Jesus still have flesh?

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Yes. We partake of it in every Eucharist.

-(iconoclast)- said:

Im not rejected mary bearing jesus who is God the Son.

Jesus had an earthly form. Mary was His earthly mother.

Im done. If you want to believe mary is the mother of god. Then that is between you and God.

Mary is the earthly mother of jesus, when he was in the earthly form.

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Just so you understand where we are coming from, we are not saying that Mary gave birth to the entire Trinity or that God in His uncreated divine nature originated from her.

Rather, we are saying that because God the Son took flesh from her, and became man, she is the Mother of God.

DrBubbaLove said:

But she is very much different and even the angel of God acknowledges this BEFORE the Virgin gives Jesus a "yes". She is also different because of Who He is, no other woman has carried God in Her Womb. And suggesting just another woman, which I actually heard a Baptist minister preach on, is certainly not what the Bible says about Saint Mary. It does not say all generations will call Her ordinary or common.

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Indeed.

Luke 1 essentially enjoins the veneration upon the Theotokos on all Christians.

So to reject the Council of Ephesus and St. Cyril in favor of the Nestorian error is to reject not only John 1 but also Luke 1.

-(iconoclast)- said:

There is no scripture to back up mary being the mother of God.

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Except for Matthew 1-2, Luke 1-2, John 1-1-17, and of course the prophecies of Isaiah "A virgin will conceive..." cited in the Gospel according to St. Matthew.